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post #31 of 59 Old 04-18-2008, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I anticipated this would be the direction the thread would take; however, whether it's capable of 2W or 2000W, she sure sounds good driving a pair of monitors - SQ is important too.

Hurry up Haskins; I need me subs boy! (In my best Mr. Krabs voice)
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post #32 of 59 Old 04-18-2008, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"The BIG PROBLEM, as Bob7145 pointed out, is that the connector is limited to 15A. That's a total input power of 1725W which limits the amplifier audio output power to a theoretical maximum of about 1300W."

For the umpteenth time, who except meter jockies run amps w/continuous sine waves?

With program material's crest factor of 6 - 10 dB, clipping a 4000 W amp means the average power (which is what heats things) is 400 - 1000 W, and the effective capacity of 15 A electricals is 60 - 150 A.

EXACTLY

It can be debated a pro amp should meet the advertised specs as it will be pushed much harder than fluff home amps.However...how many miss the spec...so many I will not start counting.

However blasting FaceAudio non stop begs for a question...did they steal Thylantyr's favorite pillow ?

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #33 of 59 Old 04-18-2008, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmm, he seems to favor QSC???

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

EXACTLY

It can be debated a pro amp should meet the advertised specs as it will be pushed much harder than fluff home amps.However...how many miss the spec...so many I will not start counting.

However blasting FaceAudio non stop begs for a question...did they steal Thylantyr's favorite pillow ?

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post #34 of 59 Old 04-18-2008, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

EXACTLY

It can be debated a pro amp should meet the advertised specs as it will be pushed much harder than fluff home amps.However...how many miss the spec...so many I will not start counting.

However blasting FaceAudio non stop begs for a question...did they steal Thylantyr's favorite pillow ?

Don't worry, other manufacturer's get equal air time.

So far we have found odd marketing claims for many of their amplifiers.

* They don't know if the amp can do 2 ohms
* They don't know how much the amplifier weighs
* They don't know the difference between milliseconds and microseconds
* 95% for their class H is beyond comedy
* The class H spec on a digital amp is suspicous
* Zero distortion claim is uber funny
* Rated for only 115VAC, yet max current is based on 200V




The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #35 of 59 Old 04-18-2008, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinobiwan View Post

Ha.

Get yourself 240v. 30A really means something then. Weak ass US mains supply.

Ha,I do not have to deal with the little,weakling and puny 15AMP circuits. 30AMPS takes care of a few problems.

If the voltage is low just make sure the amperage compensates. In the end wattage will be there.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #36 of 59 Old 04-18-2008, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Don't worry, other manufacturer's get equal air time.

So far we have found odd marketing claims for many of their amplifiers.

* They don't know if the amp can do 2 ohms
* They don't know how much the amplifier weighs
* They don't know the difference between milliseconds and microseconds
* 95% for their class H is beyond comedy
* The class H spec on a digital amp is suspicous
* Zero distortion claim is uber funny
* Rated for only 115VAC, yet max current is based on 200V


95% efficient... They use tiny reactors inside to boost the efficiency !!!

Weight,the scales are a bit off. Probably a large fly was sitting on the amp...

Zero distortion,well they may use older measuring gear. You know the pre Tesla...

ME NO SPEAK ENGLISH...specs lost in translation

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #37 of 59 Old 04-18-2008, 08:13 PM
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Nothing can beat my solar powered subwoofer.
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post #38 of 59 Old 04-18-2008, 08:17 PM
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I can't wait to hear how this works.......I'm trying to decide how to power the maelstroms I have on order. I'm really looking hard at the Face f1200,the Face f2000, and either the qsc 4050 or 5050. This is fun!
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post #39 of 59 Old 04-18-2008, 08:18 PM
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Shinobiwan,

Obviously with 240V you need half the amperage to get as many watts. The advantage is clear.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #40 of 59 Old 04-18-2008, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
ME NO SPEAK ENGLISH...specs lost in translation




The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #41 of 59 Old 04-18-2008, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robseyes View Post

I can't wait to hear how this works.......I'm trying to decide how to power the maelstroms I have on order. I'm really looking hard at the Face f1200,the Face f2000, and either the qsc 4050 or 5050. This is fun!

If you know how much power you need from doing some simple WinISD
models and you have a price limit for the amp, you can narrow down
the list of candidates.



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #42 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Those cheap quick disconnects on the QSC gets a ->
I would probably mod the QSC

Actually I have been wanting to ask this.

The 4050HD and even 5050/PLX3602 has a C14 IEC type connector, how much max current can that connector take? If i'm not wrong its 10A?
Even though I have 240V here in this part of the world, that is still slightly over the limit (240 * 10A = 2.4kW).

Hey, even the costly I-tech... !!!

Why don't they use the Neutrik 20A power connector (with lock). After all its pro-audio.
Even the afforable Submersive sub amp uses it.
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/power%20amp.pdf
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post #43 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

If you know how much power you need from doing some simple WinISD
models and you have a price limit for the amp, you can narrow down
the list of candidates.

I know I know....I just need to decide between sealed or pr's ....is their really much difference between the qsc 4050 & 5050? I know the 5050 pretty much needs a dedicated 20 amp line......I'm just not sure if I want to do that in my livingroom. I don't have a dedicated theater room.
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post #44 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2100 View Post

Actually I have been wanting to ask this.

The 4050HD and even 5050/PLX3602 has a C14 IEC type connector, how much max current can that connector take? If i'm not wrong its 10A?
Even though I have 240V here in this part of the world, that is still slightly over the limit (240 * 10A = 2.4kW).

Hey, even the costly I-tech... !!!

Why don't they use the Neutrik 20A power connector (with lock). After all its pro-audio.
Even the afforable Submersive sub amp uses it.
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/power%20amp.pdf

When you look at any product in detail, there is always room for improvement,
the manufacturers draw the line somewhere

The 4050 or 5050 seems to have a weak link in the AC cord if 120VAC.
240VAC or whatever is much better. All proamps will run optimal at the
higher AC voltage for a few reasons. Less line loss and the internal AC
to DC recitification may be better, depends on the design. But I can tell
you the PLX design and I'm pretty sure the PLX2 series will do 1/2 wave
bridge rectification if you use 120VAC, which is lame, but it does full wave
rectification of you configure the amp for 240VAC. Why? A clever design
to simplify the compatibility between low and high voltage mains yielded
a gremlin in low voltage operation -> 1/2 wave rectification.

The power issue is really simple, I don't know why people keep struggling
with this when doing subwoofers.

1. How much power does the design need? Even a ballpark figure is great vs. blind.

2. Find an amplifier that has been tested ~20hz and see if it does what you
need.




The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #45 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robseyes View Post

I know I know....I just need to decide between sealed or pr's ....is their really much difference between the qsc 4050 & 5050? I know the 5050 pretty much needs a dedicated 20 amp line......I'm just not sure if I want to do that in my livingroom. I don't have a dedicated theater room.


I don't know anything about your subwoofer plans. I haven't changed my
mind, the discontinued Crown CE4000 is the best bang for buck for subs.
The price range has been in the low $500's up to whatever the bidding war
takes it to ... Many years ago on the pro forum, people drooled when they
got one for $1500 .. But now the flavor of the year amplifiers has shifted,
but the CE4000 performance has not changed, only the dummies are selling
them dirt cheap from those previous high prices



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #46 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 12:41 PM
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Long live the crash test dummie selling his CE4000000 cheap.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #47 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

The power issue is really simple, I don't know why people keep struggling with this when doing subwoofers.

1. How much power does the design need? Even a ballpark figure is great vs. blind.

2. Find an amplifier that has been tested ~20hz and see if it does what you
need.

That sounds easy, but here's where people get...what's a better word for "confused"? Puzzled?

1) Price.
2) Subwoofer design may not be 100% decided on.
3) Amp options. 3 different amps may deliver the power needed, but now they have to compare them with each other. Or, instead of one big amp, multiple smaller amps could work.

I think #3 is what gets people most puzzled.

YID DIY
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post #48 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

Long live the crash test dummie selling his CE4000000 cheap.


The upgrade itch is strong, to get rid of you old gear in favor of gear
perceived as better but not.

Not everything in audio makes progress forward when a new product is
introduced.



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #49 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

The upgrade itch is strong, to get rid of you old gear in favor of gear
perceived as better but not.

Not everything in audio makes progress forward when a new product is
introduced.

Hmm, I did the opposit. Went from a new EP2500 to a used CE4k.

YID DIY
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post #50 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 02:12 PM
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Quote:


Then why don't they advertise average power?

lmao, does anyone think car horsepower is accurate either?

My buddy picked up the Mustang Shelby 500 which should have 500 HP....it only has 430 HP

We live in a world of marketing, scientists do not run companies most of the time so accuracy is not the #1 goal.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #51 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

lmao, does anyone think car horsepower is accurate either?

My buddy picked up the Mustang Shelby 500 which should have 500 HP....it only has 430 HP

We live in a world of marketing, scientists do not run companies most of the time so accuracy is not the #1 goal.

Ain't that the truth! Back in the day, that Shelby would have been rated at 330hp (for insurance purposes) and put out 500+ hp. *sigh*
We should start comparing companies R&D budget in comparison to their advertisement/marketing budget.

YID DIY
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post #52 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 06:21 PM
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Bottom line is numbers sell...BIG TIME!!

Over inflated specs adorn most of the gear,only a few hand picked surpass the spec...one of them is Krell. When they say the FPB600 can deliver 1200W into a 4 Ohm load...it is bested.

SimAudio ,Bryston are also good to deliver on advertised power. But these are not restricted by pennies. So far I am sold to SimAudio,Bryston and Krell for power amps,they deliver the goods. I will be due to replace my caps in a few amps soon just to keep them rolling smoothly for the next decade and beyond.

BIG BLOCK amps are fun, you have to watch the drivers...as bottoming hard may end the fun.

Cheap clipping tinker toy amps are best left at WOrstBuy.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #53 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

Bottom line is numbers sell...BIG TIME!!

Over inflated specs adorn most of the gear,only a few hand picked surpass the spec...one of them is Krell. When they say the FPB600 can deliver 1200W into a 4 Ohm load...it is bested.

SimAudio ,Bryston are also good to deliver on advertised power. But these are not restricted by pennies. So far I am sold to SimAudio,Bryston and Krell for power amps,they deliver the goods. I will be due to replace my caps in a few amps soon just to keep them rolling smoothly for the next decade and beyond.

BIG BLOCK amps are fun, you have to watch the drivers...as bottoming hard may end the fun.

Cheap clipping tinker toy amps are best left at WOrstBuy.

The audio illusion exists everywhere.

Bryston 14B SST; 900w/ch @ 4 ohms. This is a 4RU amplifier.

PLX3402; 1/2 the size @ 2RU.

I can run the PLX all day at 1500w rms @ 4 ohms bridged.

Two PLX = 4RU = 14B SST.

Two PLX = 1.5kw/ch @ 4 ohms > 14B SST @ 900w/ch @ 4ohms

You can rate the PLX as a 10kw amp for all I care. Knowing what the amp
really does is important.



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #54 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

That sounds easy, but here's where people get...what's a better word for "confused"? Puzzled?

1) Price.
2) Subwoofer design may not be 100% decided on.
3) Amp options. 3 different amps may deliver the power needed, but now they have to compare them with each other. Or, instead of one big amp, multiple smaller amps could work.

I think #3 is what gets people most puzzled.

Exactly!....it helps to understand the differences to make calculated choices.
While it's well documented those ce4000's are revered around here (and rightly so), it helps to understand the competition a little bit. Not to mention the fact that afriend of mine is an authorized QSC dealer!
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post #55 of 59 Old 04-19-2008, 10:02 PM
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04FLHRCI: The outside pics are nice, but internal pics would be AWESOME. I am dying to see what the differences are between an amp like my F500TS and your F2000TX.

Here is my thread with pics of my F500TS for comparison:

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=976373
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post #56 of 59 Old 04-20-2008, 02:27 PM
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Yeah yeah...we need POWAH ! To rupture eardrums...just like the obese director intended YEAH !

Speaking of output,I was three hours at Steve's Music (big pro sound store in Montreal),the wonders of pro sound around me. I was drooling drooling...and ordered Crown iTech6000 amps and walked out with another XTi2000.

Yes we need more power...power is good to have in reserve.

Now I cannot wait to get my first FaceAudio amp. Good to have a bit of extra power...POWER

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #57 of 59 Old 04-20-2008, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

Speaking of output,I was three hours at Steve's Music (big pro sound store in Montreal),the wonders of pro sound around me. I was drooling drooling...and ordered Crown iTech6000 amps and walked out with another XTi2000.

You seem to have more budget than a small pro-audio SR/rental comany.
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post #58 of 59 Old 04-20-2008, 08:14 PM
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I eat Kraft econo Value Meals...to afford these amps.

Some elitist members are shocked to hear pro amps can sound great! They forget the recordings they listen to are done using pro gear,not fancy shmantzy gear(snake oil,Placebo injected gear).

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #59 of 59 Old 04-20-2008, 09:02 PM
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Ear,
I've lurked these forums for a long time....I enjoy your enthusiasm! Are you considering either of the big block QSC's (4050 or 5050) for your collection? I've heard the 4050 & it's impressive.......though I don't have any of the experience some have in these forums. I have very lttle to compare it to.......I'm curious to hear any of your experience.=)
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