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post #1 of 28 Old 05-08-2008, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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There is a lot of excitement surrounding the development/release of the new Sicko; I thought it may be an appropriate time to also discuss how folks plan on shaping' his behavior. I'll likely go with a Bassis equipped with XLR I/O and rack ears; however, it's always fun exploring the alternatives.

A couple of devices have recently caught my attention; however, I have yet to find information for either being utilized in an HT application:

The BSS FDS-336T MiniDrive. http://www.bssaudio.com/productpg.php?product_id=4

The DBX DriveRack family (260). http://www.dbxpro.com/260/260.htm

What are some of your thoughts?

Larry
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post #2 of 28 Old 05-09-2008, 02:44 AM
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The DBX 260 is really nice... sometimes I get tempted looking at that but the DCX2496 is cheap and good. I really like the pro audio gear, wish I had the cash to play with some Apogee or Lynx rack mounted stuff.

I might even do the DAC mod since it’s my final D/A in my digital signal path. I hear it holds a strong candle to the $2500-3k DACs.

Im sending it out via a USB emu 0404 (via ASIO) > *SRC2496 (44.1 in upsampled) > digital into DEQ2496 > digital into DCX2496 analog out to 3 crown amps.

I wish the DCX2496 had AES/EBU out so I can throw it into a Lynx DAC. I haven’t done too much research on the DBX unit but from what I remember the main reason I stayed away from the DriveRack PA was due to the lack of digital in, and outs.

I don’t know if the SRC2496 is needed but for the price id love to play with it… see for myself; give myself a chance to play with up sampling.

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post #3 of 28 Old 05-09-2008, 03:11 AM
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I just spent a little time at the dbx site... the DriveRack PA seems like a much better fit than the 260 for the reason its more like the DEQ2496 and DCX2496 in one box. Serves as a 3 Way active crossover + RTA / Room Correction (at least in my setup it does)

If you are going to be using it in an analog signal path that seems like the way to go.

The delay, phase, room correction seems pretty fool proof in the dbx.

Just so you know the DCX2496 also had a mic input to set delay and phase.

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post #4 of 28 Old 05-09-2008, 08:35 AM
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Why lock yourself into the fixed architecture of the touring models? There are plenty of Matrix I/O loudspeaker processors which offer full configurability of most anything you can draw. A mid-priced, and fanless option would be the Shure P4800. The most common configuration in the pro market is 8x8, with some 4x4 units as well. Rane, SymNet, BSS, MediaMatrix, Audia and many others are all good possibilities with different strenths. Or if budget isn't of a big concern, there is always the Dolby Lake...

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post #5 of 28 Old 05-09-2008, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh thanks Mark, this will take me the entire weekend to chase down now!!!


btw - Do you still recommend the QSC DSP30 (I believe this was the model) to your customers?

Larry

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Why lock yourself into the fixed architecture of the touring models? There are plenty of Matrix I/O loudspeaker processors which offer full configurability of most anything you can draw. A mid-priced, and fanless option would be the Shure P4800. The most common configuration in the pro market is 8x8, with some 4x4 units as well. Rane, SymNet, BSS, MediaMatrix, Audia and many others are all good possibilities with different strenths. Or if budget isn't of a big concern, there is always the Dolby Lake...

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post #6 of 28 Old 05-09-2008, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04FLHRCI View Post

Oh thanks Mark, this will take me the entire weekend to chase down now!!!


btw - Do you still recommend the QSC DSP30 (I believe this was the model) to your customers?

Larry

Hi Larry,

Yes, the DSP-30 is a great piece for subwoofer use. The fine adjustment and flexibility in how you use it is very nice. Others are cheaper. I have a DCX2496 around as it's cheap enough that it's handy for testing and easy demonstrations without concern for traveling with it, but the reason to buy it is because of price, not for build and performance quality. Note that most of the 8x8 matrix signal processors have noisy fans to allow them to live in 1 rack space. You don't want such pieces open in your listening area.

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post #7 of 28 Old 05-09-2008, 10:40 AM
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There is a lot of excitement surrounding the development/release of the new Sicko;

Micheal Moore is making a directors cut of the existing movie or
is it a sequel ?



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #8 of 28 Old 05-11-2008, 02:40 AM
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Anyone see this?
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ull&1214028147

Full upgraded digital in and out of the DCX2496... with a clock upgprade.

Tempting

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post #9 of 28 Old 05-11-2008, 02:56 AM
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wow... that Dolby Lake unit is just something amazing...

Dare I ask what I even cost to get into something like that?

As far as the DAC is concerned... are we talking performance with no compromise?

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post #10 of 28 Old 05-12-2008, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealthlude View Post

wow... that Dolby Lake unit is just something amazing...

Dare I ask what I even cost to get into something like that?

As far as the DAC is concerned... are we talking performance with no compromise?

Having used the Dolby Lake on a few occasions, I can affirm it is a thing of beauty. I believe the price ranges from about $4800-6600 depending on configuration, but that may be out of date.

The ADC/DAC design is of VERY high quality. If you dig through the articles posted on their website you will find some info on the development of the digital sections by the designer. At some point I will likely do a heads-up comparison to an "audiophile" DAC, but not any time soon, and the main limitation is that the unit does have a varaiable speed, thermally controlled fan which isn't appropriate in a very quiet listening room. Of course that's what equipment closets are for.

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post #11 of 28 Old 05-12-2008, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealthlude View Post

Anyone see this?
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ull&1214028147

Full upgraded digital in and out of the DCX2496... with a clock upgprade.

Tempting


resist temptation



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #12 of 28 Old 05-12-2008, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

resist temptation

I'm trying my best haha. I've been searching pretty hard on the internet trying to find parts to do these mods myself but hes got more than what I can find; the full digital AES/EBU mod and clock upgrade would be awesome; then just feed it into a standalone DAC like the Lynx or Apogee.

The analog mods also seem cool, along with clock mods for the DEQ. I wonder how many people are aware they can mod these units.

Even with that said, the cost of a DEQ and DCX + Mods or factor in a high end dac like the Apogee and ur already up to about $3500-4500 (modded) bucks total. Already on your way to a Dolby Lake unit.

I probably don't need a Dolby Lake unit ever, since it's only as good as the operator who sets it up; but id sure love to take a crack at it haha. The computer software for control just looks awesome.

The only thing I don't like is the user does not have an option for Auto EQ / RTA Mic; but I guess you buy a piece like that you don't want software telling you what to do either.

Id love to hear a comparison review against expensive audiophile DACs might give me the push to want to experiment with something like that. Have you had any experience with configurations using 5.1 or 7.1 home theater with mains that require a 3 way active crossover?

When using the Lake, what are you using to get your measurements and tests? TrueRTA?

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post #13 of 28 Old 05-12-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Having used the Dolby Lake on a few occasions, I can affirm it is a thing of beauty. I believe the price ranges from about $4800-6600 depending on configuration, but that may be out of date.

The ADC/DAC design is of VERY high quality. If you dig through the articles posted on their website you will find some info on the development of the digital sections by the designer. At some point I will likely do a heads-up comparison to an "audiophile" DAC, but not any time soon, and the main limitation is that the unit does have a varaiable speed, thermally controlled fan which isn't appropriate in a very quiet listening room. Of course that's what equipment closets are for.

How about the TOA DP-0206..... modularity is nice. You can also import a curve from measurement software.

http://www.toaelectronics.com/dacsys2000.asp

It looks like the street price is around $2K but you can do a complete active system with that baby, and provide PEQ for the bass section.

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post #14 of 28 Old 05-12-2008, 11:56 AM
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Kevin,

Thanks for the TOA link... I really want to create a thread for DSP gear that has more of a pro audio feel to it... I think a lot of people here, myself included, don’t know too many DSP options. At one point in time all I new was dbx or behringer.

What I really liked about the Dolby Live was the 8x8 configuration to allow for all 7.1 channels to have a very robust EQ on each channel. What I did not like about it was needing another unit if I had a 7.1 system with that required active 3 way or 4 way crossover on the front channels. Guess you would need two units at that point.

Hopefully I can find a balance between DSP features, flexibility, cost, and DAC performance to give me pro audio type control with audiophile sound quality.

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post #15 of 28 Old 05-12-2008, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Stealthlude,

I was hoping 'this' thread would serve that purpose. I'm wanting to move in a direction offering more features and higher quality than the Behringer product line. One driver here is a fully equipped Bassis is barely shy of $1k - I wanted to see what other options were in this range. The Dolby Lake is mighty sweet, but at ~$6k, so is the price. I've been on the pro-sound forum and it seems like Ashley, BSS and DBX are well respected entries. I'm still looking into how these units are managed once installed.

Larry

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Kevin,

Thanks for the TOA link... I really want to create a thread for DSP gear that has more of a pro audio feel to it... I think a lot of people here, myself included, don't know too many DSP options. At one point in time all I new was dbx or behringer.

What I really liked about the Dolby Live was the 8x8 configuration to allow for all 7.1 channels to have a very robust EQ on each channel. What I did not like about it was needing another unit if I had a 7.1 system with that required active 3 way or 4 way crossover on the front channels. Guess you would need two units at that point.

Hopefully I can find a balance between DSP features, flexibility, cost, and DAC performance to give me pro audio type control with audiophile sound quality.

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post #16 of 28 Old 05-12-2008, 12:50 PM
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For other options be sure and download the software for the SymNet, BSS Soundweb London, MediaMatrix, BiAmp Audia and RaneRPM. There are of course many others such as the TOA Kevin linked. The 8x8 variants of these solutions run from probably $2400-4500, with most in the $3-3.5k range, although I haven't checked pricing in quite a while. Note that almost all of them have noisy fans, so plan appropriately.

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post #17 of 28 Old 05-12-2008, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
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I was hoping 'this' thread would serve that purpose. I'm wanting to move in a direction offering more features and higher quality than the Behringer product line.

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post #18 of 28 Old 05-12-2008, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm really liking the feature set of the BSS Audio FDS-366T Omnidrive Compact Plus; 10Hz native to boot. Only draw back for me is the > $3k investment.

Mark, have you ever been exposed to this model?

Larry
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post #19 of 28 Old 05-12-2008, 06:20 PM
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Ive been googling all of these units and while most look extremely capable... I see one thing that is kind of a turn off when it comes to ease of use.

On the back of units like the RaneRPM and TOA it’s all cut cable type connections. I was really hoping all of these just used XLR cables to keep things simple. Is there a reason they do this?

More I look at prices the more I see why the DEQ and DCX are so damn popular… you really do get a ton of features and granular tuning for dirt cheap (compared to the other brands).

Once I get to the 3500-5k level… I just ask myself why not push even harder and go for the Dolby Lake unit if it really is the holy grail of DSP units. My only fear with something like that is resale. Im not sure how the used market is for pro audio gear like that… or maybe im not hanging out in the right forum =) Makes buying to satisfy curiously pretty scary with such an expensive unit.

For some reason the Auto Setup features of the dbx unit really temps the lazy side of me; but im not sure if that is acceptable to the tune and tweek till you die sound engineers. Personally I don’t have the experience a season sound engineer would have in setting up something like that w/o some electronic assistance; but the Dolby Lake GUI seems to make up for that too.

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post #20 of 28 Old 05-13-2008, 09:56 AM
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I'm not sure I'd put the auto setup capability in my "pros" column and as a pivotal factor when deciding on a piece such as this. While neato and maybe fun to play with once.. I'd say you'll probably end up not using it in practice... not in this environment anyway.
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post #21 of 28 Old 05-13-2008, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
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I'm not sure I'd put the auto setup capability in my "pros" column and as a pivotal factor when deciding on a piece such as this. While neato and maybe fun to play with once.. I'd say you'll probably end up not using it in practice... not in this environment anyway.

Yea.... it is a negative in my book. I'm thinking of springing for one of those TOAs though if I can import transfer functions from LSPCad.

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post #22 of 28 Old 05-13-2008, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmm, seems as though most viable options are ~$3K, and of these, the majority are not designed to accomodate installations of < 20Hz. I may have to take another look at a loaded Bassis - although I sure like the pretty lights and LCD panels on these other guys...

Regards,

Larry
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post #23 of 28 Old 05-13-2008, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
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Yea.... it is a negative in my book. I'm thinking of springing for one of those TOAs though if I can import transfer functions from LSPCad.

When you say negative I wanted to clarify you don't care for auto setup type functions correct? So when using something like a Dolby Lake unit what do people use to take measurements?

TOA: All of the RTA type readings and measurements have to come from an external source? Does anyone know if TrueRTA files can be imported?

Is there any way to hookup a measurement mic and have the TOA get measurements internally?

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post #24 of 28 Old 05-13-2008, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04FLHRCI View Post

Hmm, seems as though most viable options are ~$3K, and of these, the majority are not designed to accomodate installations of < 20Hz. I may have to take another look at a loaded Bassis - although I sure like the pretty lights and LCD panels on these other guys...

Regards,

Larry

Im also a sucker for a fancy front panel and fancy LEDs and LCDs...

But I find more and more of the higher end units have either serial or Ethernet connections for computers to access their setup menu. (Big plus in my book).

I also think you have a very valid point about <20 Hz operation and tuning; more and more we see emphasis on LFE for home theater. Being able to measure and tune down there would be great.

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post #25 of 28 Old 05-13-2008, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd pick up the new Elemental Designs unit to play with if it had XLR I/O (I don't want to re-invest in cabling), ~$100 investment isn't much of a risk.

Would be nice to have updated info on the SVS product too.

Larry


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Im also a sucker for a fancy front panel and fancy LEDs and LCDs...

But I find more and more of the higher end units have either serial or Ethernet connections for computers to access their setup menu. (Big plus in my book).

I also think you have a very valid point about <20 Hz operation and tuning; more and more we see emphasis on LFE for home theater. Being able to measure and tune down there would be great.

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post #26 of 28 Old 05-15-2008, 09:41 AM
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Anyone else use this one?

http://www.deqx.com/PDC26P-Preamp.html

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post #27 of 28 Old 05-15-2008, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Good Afternoon Mike,

This looks like a solid unit; however, the > $4K entrance fee pushed it well beyond my reach. Last night I ordered a BFD to serve as an interim solution.

Regards,

Larry

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Anyone else use this one?

http://www.deqx.com/PDC26P-Preamp.html

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post #28 of 28 Old 05-15-2008, 11:04 AM
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That DEQX seems like an awsome unit too; looks a lot more like a home audio product but has the pro audio connections.

I really like the digital outputs.

sigh... cheap stuff isnt good and good stuff isnt cheap. I feel I will be sticking to my DEQ2496 and DCX2496 combo for a while.

The BFD is so popular, cheap, and gets the job done.

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