Any 21’s on the horizon with XBL^X? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 171 Old 07-06-2008, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

OK Army,
it was just observation, and regadless of power the X-Max/X-Mech is lean IMO. I just bought 2 Maelstroms that I have the same opinion of and I'm not bashing it or Dan Wiggins. Just making an observation, no need for getting all worked up.

Anyone know what the cone is made of? It would be kick a$$ if it could stand up to horn loading.

Sorry if I sounded overly defensive, I was just posting an observation as well. I don't own a Maelstrom, but I have owned a Dan Wiggins sub with a similar xmax, xmech ratio, I have gotten it to move well past xmax but have never bottomed it. I will admit that I liked TC sounds xmech standards much better, they often times had 50% more xmech than xmax, sometimes even more. Likewise, some PA drivers like JBL's will have 200% the xmech as xmax, this is also nice to see. I think the anomaly here is just how big the xmax is for a PA sub. Other designers like those who make Dayton subs put much less xmax than xmech into them. I know FIcar's IB 18 has no xmech past xmax and people have dumped a lot of power into those in free air and never bottomed them.
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post #32 of 171 Old 07-06-2008, 02:06 PM
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Thanks Spezzy,
It'll have to be "special" to survive in a bass horn. I'll be interested to check this one out, once it's avaliable.

Regards,
Dan
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post #33 of 171 Old 07-06-2008, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

Thanks Spezzy,
It'll have to be "special" to survive in a bass horn. I'll be interested to check this one out, once it's avaliable.

It currently is available. Just send them an email.

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post #34 of 171 Old 07-06-2008, 03:32 PM
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Great Spezzy,
just what I needed to hear, I think I smell the scent of warm credit card plastic

Good thing I've already got XBL stuff on the way, my attention shall be diverted to that for now....

Regards,
Dan
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post #35 of 171 Old 07-06-2008, 03:48 PM
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Quote:


our patented (US PAT 7039213) XBL™ motor technology

This must be the Pro Audio stuff that was "Coming Soon" from Adire Audio before they closed shop.
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post #36 of 171 Old 07-06-2008, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Nice find.

Sometimes people lose sight of the fact the world is MUCH bigger than the AVSForum! Lots of trinkets are out there.

Dr V
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post #37 of 171 Old 07-06-2008, 06:49 PM
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Indeed, acoupower and RE audio have been around for a long time but only recently have we started seeing builds with them.
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post #38 of 171 Old 07-06-2008, 07:47 PM
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That thing is begging for 30 cubic feet, 12" diameter port, and a 15 Hertz tune!
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post #39 of 171 Old 07-06-2008, 07:50 PM
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Nah, forget the 12" port, just get one of the 10" flared acoupower ports, use a smaller box, stuff it, and shoot for the same tune. Another option would be the powerport design.
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post #40 of 171 Old 07-06-2008, 08:30 PM
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Hey. I haven't modeled this thing yet but dang! Did Spezzy say available now for $320?! That's damn tempting right there! MUST SAY NO....
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post #41 of 171 Old 07-06-2008, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Hey. I haven't modeled this thing yet but dang! Did Spezzy say available now for $320?! That's damn tempting right there! MUST SAY NO....

Edited.

"The choices we make define our lives, because choice, not chance, determines destiny"

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post #42 of 171 Old 07-07-2008, 12:27 AM
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Yeah, its cool and all, but I don't see what all the fuss is about, a pair of the new MJ-18m's will do everything this driver will, save for perhaps a decrease in power handling. Still greater efficiency, greater displacement and the same box requirements for the same price, I don't know why more people aren't buying MJ-18's if this can generate hype.
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post #43 of 171 Old 07-07-2008, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Yeah, its cool and all

Thats just it. A new 21" driver with incredible sensitivity, decent xmax & XBL comes with an extra endorsement on the man card! Most aren't satisfied with multiples of mediocre drivers. 2 VWs or one Porsche? Hmmmm...

Dr V
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post #44 of 171 Old 07-07-2008, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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As a hobbyist, it's always fun to have something new added to the mix. I'm really excited about the current collection of drivers the enthusiast has at his/her (for DH) disposal - there is now an 18 for most any occasion - (in my best Yoda voice) soon it will be with the 21 - yes!

As most of you are aware, I complained and bellyached all year long about not having any LMS drivers; now that I have landed three, I've lost interest in their mystique and will likely pass the baton.

Like most hobbies, it's as much emotion as it is any other single element

Larry

Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Yeah, its cool and all, but I don't see what all the fuss is about, a pair of the new MJ-18m's will do everything this driver will, save for perhaps a decrease in power handling. Still greater efficiency, greater displacement and the same box requirements for the same price, I don't know why more people aren't buying MJ-18's if this can generate hype.

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post #45 of 171 Old 07-07-2008, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Yeah, its cool and all, but I don't see what all the fuss is about, a pair of the new MJ-18m's will do everything this driver will, save for perhaps a decrease in power handling. Still greater efficiency, greater displacement and the same box requirements for the same price, I don't know why more people aren't buying MJ-18's if this can generate hype.

It's a big 21" driver with lots of xmax, a multigap motor, Faraday shielding, what might be a novel and useful heat management scheme, and low inductance, for a pretty low price. That's worth some fuss, for sure. I haven't modeled it, but if it looks as good in a reasonable-sized sealed box (in terms of output potential: FR is just a matter of signal processing) as the 21" B&C driver, it sounds like...something that might end up in my home.

Furthermore, I don't think comparisons to stuff little advanced from what Adire was getting OEM'ed by Eminence a decade ago are terribly appropriate. Comparisons to the Maestrom-X, the B&C 21SW150, or other such drivers, sure.

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post #46 of 171 Old 07-07-2008, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04FLHRCI View Post

As a hobbyist, it's always fun to have something new added to the mix. I'm really excited about the current collection of drivers the enthusiast has at his/her (for DH) disposal - there is now an 18 for most any occasion - (in my best Yoda voice) soon it will be with the 21 - yes!

As most of you are aware, I complained and bellyached all year long about not having any LMS drivers; now that I have landed three, I've lost interest in their mystique and will likely pass the baton.

Like most hobbies, it's as much emotion as it is any other single element

Larry

Pass the Baton? I'll take 2x LMS Ultra 18"s off you for sure!

"The choices we make define our lives, because choice, not chance, determines destiny"

They call me the 18 year old DJ Audiophile-upgradeitis infected-guy!
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post #47 of 171 Old 07-07-2008, 02:38 PM
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Well that 21 doesn't really model very well for deep response. It would be good for a HO music sub tuned to 25hz or so and of course for PA purposes. A 6 to 8ft sealed one would be pretty solid.
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post #48 of 171 Old 07-07-2008, 02:54 PM
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Thats a lot of what I like about it and other subs like this, you can get incredible efficiency, just make the box bigger, tune a bit higher, and you have a great sounding sub that will pound the room to death with fairly little power.
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post #49 of 171 Old 07-07-2008, 05:19 PM
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Hi Guys,

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. The prices suggested thus far are way off for these drivers. Dan Wiggins & Mark Cohen have bounced some parameters for these drivers off of me for potential pro audio designs or the rare, extreme home audio use, and the pricing I have heard for general sale of the drivers is in the $500-800 range for the 15-21" drivers.

As the name cleary implies, "PASUB" makes drivers for pro audio. A Maelstrom and other XBL^2 drivers will be much better optimized for typical home use where multi-kW power handling and the lower weight of Neodymium have less value. I also suspect some of the car audio guys might find the drivers of interest in higher loading designs such as ported and bandpass boxes.

These drivers will have astonishingly low power compression and exceptional linearity over their ~+/-20mm of useful Xmax. In more compact designs where the higher motor strength and power handling are useful, they are quite potent. Remember that most pro audio "subwoofers" are tuned in the 28-50Hz range, and with the shorting rings they are plenty suitable as "woofers" in top quality 3 way designs.

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post #50 of 171 Old 07-08-2008, 05:41 AM
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I would have to make a huge guess why it is PASUB...

For PA application,they are designed to perform ~30Hz up ,the 20mm of Xmax is huge by pro audio standards.

No I will most probably not buy these drivers,the 21" nicknamed the Sicko...Wacko...Lunatico...this one yes as I hope the basket holds and I can have driver with a huge Xmax capability and massive power handling.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #51 of 171 Old 07-08-2008, 07:21 AM
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I've seen threads over the years that ask if a car sub or a pro sound sub can be used for HT in the title. The responses always tickle me pink.

This driver is perfectly fine for HT. 5 cubes and the proper L/T and it will handle anything a DVD has to throw at it in most rooms, compared to 99% of the subs in use today. Given its displacement capability in a small box, the $ is not all that significant.

The real question lies in Wiggins designed drivers, specifically, XBl^2 motors.

Ilkka has only measured 2 such motor driven subs and they both appear to perform at or below average vs standard overhung drivers in the arena they are touted as being better than those drivers.

It would be great to see the 21" pasub put up against the ACP-18.

But, we're talking about vaporware, right?

Bosso
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post #52 of 171 Old 07-08-2008, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The real question lies in Wiggins designed drivers, specifically, XBl^2 motors.

Ilkka has only measured 2 such motor driven subs and they both appear to perform at or below average vs standard overhung drivers in the arena they are touted as being better than those drivers.

Actually, the Tumult is the only driver Ilkka has tested that was designed by Dan Wiggins, and it was an original version at that (how old is that original driver design now?). Others including the SDX-15 and Avalanche drivers were designed under license of the XBL^2 technology, but not by Wiggins.

The PA Subs are just that, PA subs. I would expect the suspensions to protect against over excursion and for the driver to be pretty much bullet-proof from pro audio abuse. They should be extremely well behaved compared to any remotely comprable driver, but of course we'll see.

No matter how linear the design or cool the technology, the driver still has to be suited to the application. While it's fun to compare to the LMS-5400, remember that is a driver with multiples the expense in raw materials and custom-tooled parts. As expensive as the drivers were, they obviously weren't as expensive as they needed to be.

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post #53 of 171 Old 07-08-2008, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I've seen threads over the years that ask if a car sub or a pro sound sub can be used for HT in the title. The responses always tickle me pink.

This driver is perfectly fine for HT. 5 cubes and the proper L/T and it will handle anything a DVD has to throw at it in most rooms, compared to 99% of the subs in use today. Given its displacement capability in a small box, the $ is not all that significant.

The real question lies in Wiggins designed drivers, specifically, XBl^2 motors.

Ilkka has only measured 2 such motor driven subs and they both appear to perform at or below average vs standard overhung drivers in the arena they are touted as being better than those drivers.

It would be great to see the 21" pasub put up against the ACP-18.

But, we're talking about vaporware, right?

Bosso

I have done lots of unpublished research on linear designs, the xbl^2 in theory will measure much better than overhung models, i would argue perhaps the individual implementation were to blame?? Its hard to say. I have not done dynamic measurements on any xbl woofers myself, just calculations, but as long as the flux density is symmetrical about the y-axis from the center of the void between the gaps, you can get very linear results.
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post #54 of 171 Old 07-08-2008, 11:16 AM
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Refresh my memory, XBL is split gap tech and RE audio uses a split coil tech is that right?
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post #55 of 171 Old 07-08-2008, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Refresh my memory, XBL is split gap tech and RE audio uses a split coil tech is that right?

Correct and there's LMS also. Seems like there was one more...

XXX 18 split coil.


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post #56 of 171 Old 07-08-2008, 11:37 AM
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What did the LMS use? I never studied that topology before. (never saw much info released, or if I did, I was too dumb at the time to understand it)
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post #57 of 171 Old 07-08-2008, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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If this is so, is it the same net effect?

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Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Refresh my memory, XBL is split gap tech and RE audio uses a split coil tech is that right?

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post #58 of 171 Old 07-08-2008, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Actually, the Tumult is the only driver Ilkka has tested that was designed by Dan Wiggins, and it was an original version at that (how old is that original driver design now?). Others including the SDX-15 and Avalanche drivers were designed under license of the XBL^2 technology, but not by Wiggins.

The PA Subs are just that, PA subs. I would expect the suspensions to protect against over excursion and for the driver to be pretty much bullet-proof from pro audio abuse. They should be extremely well behaved compared to any remotely comprable driver, but of course we'll see.

No matter how linear the design or cool the technology, the driver still has to be suited to the application. While it's fun to compare to the LMS-5400, remember that is a driver with multiples the expense in raw materials and custom-tooled parts. As expensive as the drivers were, they obviously weren't as expensive as they needed to be.

I wasn't referring to LMS, but instead, a standard overhung driver, as in virtually every driver tested, commercial or otherwise.

I'm not sure what the distinction is between a licensed XBl^2 motor and a Wiggins designed XBl^2 motor, nor am I sure I understand what the age of the design has to do with anything (which is a little over 5 years, to answer your question).

If you're saying that any split gap motor can be called XBl^2 then the license agreement seems lacking.

Bottom line is that very few Wiggins subwoofers have been tested in a way that gives a frame of reference. There are theoretical advantages and they've been discussed many times. Dan himself has made the case you're suggesting, by mentioning the SDX and AVA drivers, that the XBl^2 license means basically nothing, specifically in the case of the Avalanche drivers, which also have never been tested.

PA-SchmeeA and App-Schmapp. Put that driver in 5 cubes and let someone listen, then switch the driver with the Mael-X, match FR with L/T and match levels and tell me who heard what or how one was better because it's specified for HT apps.

Saying that one has more headroom above X and the other has more headroom below X, or one uses a smaller amplifier than the other, etc. is irrelevant.

If you draw the in-room extension line at 10Hz and listen at average levels in 3-4,000 cubes, there will be no discernible difference.

I understand the problems you face having to work within a strict set of parameters, but no such problems exist in DIY. That's why my subs are Tumult based and yours are not.

Tumult is a great driver. I've said so many times. I'm just not sure what XBl^2 has to do with that fact vs the same driver with an overhung motor.

Bosso
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post #59 of 171 Old 07-08-2008, 11:49 AM
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Basically, but as you can imagine, the coil mass for the RE audio ones look to be heavier, the inductance will be higher, ect. since you are using the coil to extend the linear stroke as opposed to the magnetic structure.
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post #60 of 171 Old 07-08-2008, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleLee View Post

I have done lots of unpublished research on linear designs, the xbl^2 in theory will measure much better than overhung models, i would argue perhaps the individual implementation were to blame?? Its hard to say. I have not done dynamic measurements on any xbl woofers myself, just calculations, but as long as the flux density is symmetrical about the y-axis from the center of the void between the gaps, you can get very linear results.

Yes, that's my point. Theoretical arguments for the topology have been made many times, but virtually no measurements have been included.

It struck me when Ilkka told me the Tumult MKI is a 'bad' driver, meaning high in harmonic distortions vs other drivers. This seems to have been furthered by the results of the SDX drivers tests.

If individual implementations are to blame, I wonder what they may be? Sealed is as simple an implementation as it gets.

Bosso
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