Ribbons VS Electrostatics - HF extension - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 26 Old 11-28-2008, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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i know some ribbons have response to 100 khz

on the other hand i look at the specs of speakers like Quad and Martin Logan and they only have response to about 21 - 25 khz.

is this due to the transformer ? or is this because of the capacitance of the speaker itself ? or interaction of the two ?

are there any speakers that use Ribbon Tweeter with Electrostatic Midrange ?

is that what this speaker used:

http://www.apogeespeakers.com/the_grand.htm
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post #2 of 26 Old 12-02-2008, 02:22 PM
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While some ribbons and domes can play upwards of 40khz or more, what's the point? Ask yourself if something you can't hear, feel, or perceive in anyway, is at all important.

To answer your question, why an electrostat is rated to 21-25k where-as some ribbons and domes can play much higher, I'd have to guess it has to do with the physics of how an electrostat works. But I don't know.

YID DIY
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post #3 of 26 Old 12-03-2008, 12:21 AM
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B&W's theory and research as to why they went from there old to the new higher frequency Diamond tweeters in the Flagship 800 series speakers is because of the gain in "headroom" which in B&W's research showed and meant A step up in accuracy in the lower audible range of the new Diamond tweeter....

Cheers....
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post #4 of 26 Old 12-03-2008, 05:29 AM
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Another of their theories is that if HF is extended that much then the sound "breakup" won't occur until well past the range of your hearing. Meaning a "breakup" free sound in your hearing range. Very clean. I haven't heard their diamond drivers, but it at least makes some sense (but not in the pocket though).
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post #5 of 26 Old 12-03-2008, 06:34 AM
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Yes When you have the 800 801's or 802's Diamond series B&W speakers or go to A certified 800 series dealer you get A book and DVD that explains about what you have stated above...

B&W are Extremely advanced in the research and develepment of speakers, I guess that is why recording studios like Abbey road choose B&W 800's :quote " recording equitment must offer nothing less than absolute definition and purity. In all three main studios, its Penthouse and its mobile units, Abbey Road employs the 800 Series to monitor the output of the most demanding artists.."

I can tell you first hand that they are awsome speakers ...

Cheers....
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post #6 of 26 Old 12-03-2008, 02:38 PM
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Abbey Road also uses Shakti Stones Nothing against the speakers mind you.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #7 of 26 Old 12-03-2008, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasyachkin View Post

i know some ribbons have response to 100 khz

on the other hand i look at the specs of speakers like Quad and Martin Logan and they only have response to about 21 - 25 khz.

is this due to the transformer ? or is this because of the capacitance of the speaker itself ? or interaction of the two ?

are there any speakers that use Ribbon Tweeter with Electrostatic Midrange ?

is that what this speaker used:

http://www.apogeespeakers.com/the_grand.htm

Apogees were a combination of planar magnetic and ribbon speakers.

Some of the Magnapans are of similar construction.

I know of no speaker combining electrostatic and ribbon drivers.
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post #8 of 26 Old 12-03-2008, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post

I know of no speaker combining electrostatic and ribbon drivers.

we could be the first ?

lol.

i think it would make a lot of sense. electrostatic speaker is capacitive so extremely difficult to drive at high frequencies. on the other hand ribbon speaker is not, but extremely expensive if you're trying to make it reproduce anything lower than 1 khz.

a match made in heaven ?
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post #9 of 26 Old 12-03-2008, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasyachkin View Post

we could be the first ?

lol.

i think it would make a lot of sense. electrostatic speaker is capacitive so extremely difficult to drive at high frequencies. on the other hand ribbon speaker is not, but extremely expensive if you're trying to make it reproduce anything lower than 1 khz.

a match made in heaven ?

Oh I don't know that an electrostatic is so hard to drive at high frequencies. I have driven several dozen different Martin Logan electrostatics from some of the oldest to the newest, at high volumes, from a mid 1990's Kenwood receiver - albeit a very beefy one which has no problem with low impedance loads.
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post #10 of 26 Old 12-03-2008, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Gilbert View Post

Oh I don't know that an electrostatic is so hard to drive at high frequencies. I have driven several dozen different Martin Logan electrostatics from some of the oldest to the newest, at high volumes, from a mid 1990's Kenwood receiver - albeit a very beefy one which has no problem with low impedance loads.

i think those Martin Logans spec the impedance falling to under 1 ohm at 20 khz ?
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post #11 of 26 Old 12-03-2008, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasyachkin View Post

i think those Martin Logans spec the impedance falling to under 1 ohm at 20 khz ?

I don't believe it's that low. It varies from model to model, but the latest specification I heard was only in the two ohm range, maybe just under. There might be a model or two that goes down to one ohm, but I have tested most of them and not had any problems: Monolith, SL2, SL3, Quest, ReQuest, Ascent, Cinema, Theater, Aerius, Clarity, Odyssey, Prodigy, Vista, Vantage, etc.

But on the other hand, how much power is actually needed at 20 kHz? I don't believe it's that much, even when the average level is high. I can't hear past about 17 kHz though, so couldn't tell you how loud it is at 20k.
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post #12 of 26 Old 12-04-2008, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Gilbert View Post

I don't believe it's that low. It varies from model to model, but the latest specification I heard was only in the two ohm range, maybe just under. There might be a model or two that goes down to one ohm, but I have tested most of them and not had any problems: Monolith, SL2, SL3, Quest, ReQuest, Ascent, Cinema, Theater, Aerius, Clarity, Odyssey, Prodigy, Vista, Vantage, etc.

But on the other hand, how much power is actually needed at 20 kHz? I don't believe it's that much, even when the average level is high. I can't hear past about 17 kHz though, so couldn't tell you how loud it is at 20k.

I could be wrong but IIRC the original Monolith or maybe CLS gave some amplifiers a little trouble.

For sure, some of the Apogees fried a few amplifiers.
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post #13 of 26 Old 12-04-2008, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasyachkin View Post

we could be the first ?

lol.

i think it would make a lot of sense. electrostatic speaker is capacitive so extremely difficult to drive at high frequencies. on the other hand ribbon speaker is not, but extremely expensive if you're trying to make it reproduce anything lower than 1 khz.

a match made in heaven ?

Interesting idea...

I would be concerned about the permanent magnets for the ribbons interfering with the field for the stats. But it would be a interesting project!
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post #14 of 26 Old 12-04-2008, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Interesting idea...

I would be concerned about the permanent magnets for the ribbons interfering with the field for the stats. But it would be a interesting project!

thanks.

by the way i think electric field cancels outside of the capacitor because one plate is + and one is - . so the field is only between the stators. shouldn't interfere with ribbons nearby imho.
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post #15 of 26 Old 12-04-2008, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasyachkin View Post

thanks.

by the way i think electric field cancels outside of the capacitor because one plate is + and one is - . so the field is only between the stators. shouldn't interfere with ribbons nearby imho.

Yes, I don't see interference from the electrostatic part, really just the other way around.

I am using Apogee's in my two channel rig. The permanent magnets are very strong; pretty much impossible to have them next to a CRT display with out induced distortion on the display. I see the possibility of interference with the pole pieces of the stat's from the permanent magnets field of the ribbon; the stat's being a push pull arrangement.

Like I said though, it is an interesting idea and it makes me want to play around with the concept. It seems like it might be a possible solution or help with high frequency beaming or off axis problems with high frequency common in stat's. However, it would certainly seem like someone would have done this by now though???
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post #16 of 26 Old 12-06-2008, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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ok, in theory there could be some interaction. but i think it would be minor in magnitude.

rather than trying to calculate it if you're interested i think you should simply take a magnet to an electrostatic speaker while its playing and see if you hear any difference.

also a ribbon could be partially shielded.

as for your question about whether it has been tried ? - i don't know. but i can give you one reason why maybe it wasn't. because people are religious about high end audio. they believe in things like "voicing". they are probably either hung up on ribbons or on stats and quite likely will not even consider a hybrid like this.

by the way i would complete this speaker with an array of scan-speak illuminators, sealed, for bass.
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post #17 of 26 Old 12-06-2008, 11:28 AM
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Old news, guys. ThomasW over at HTG has been using a setup like that for ages. It started out as 2 Acoustat panels with a line of Technics leaf tweeters in between.



Later, he added an RD75 midrange, shown here just propped in place for testing and later built in.


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post #18 of 26 Old 12-06-2008, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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ok but i don't want to buy an electrostatic "speaker"

i would buy just a panel if that is possible. ?

also i would definitely use an array of small woofers for bass.

i don't really understand the point of a BG midrange in there ? cant the acoustat go up to about 3 khz to meet up with something like Raven or Raal ?

also i think a curved panel ( a la martin logan ) would be more appropriate here since we would be trying to emulate a line source.
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post #19 of 26 Old 12-06-2008, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
also i would definitely use an array of small woofers for bass.

That would be a cheaper way to go if starting from scratch but it's not needed if you happen to have the stat panels on hand. They have enough surface area to play low enough to cross to the IB sub. You can find them used once in a while at a pretty good price.

Quote:
i don't really understand the point of a BG midrange in there ?

Because it sounds better. The stats can play plenty high but their width gives you a very narrow sweet spot at high frequencies -- the old wavelength thing.

Not sure but I think Thomas's XOs are around 50, 600 and 5K.

Edit: here's a recent thread where Thomas talks about cones vs. stats, both of which he has used. Both can work well.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=31291

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post #20 of 26 Old 12-06-2008, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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you know that BG ribbon was never designed for hi-fi

i have real doubts about its potential

on the other hand its likely that in a certain narrow band ( say 500 hz - 5 khz ) it performs very well ... but i am still not very excited about using it

i would rather get an electrostatic panel with curvature to overcome the beaming issue ... but then that's subject to availability ... unless you build one yourself ... but then i don't really wanna do that =/

do you think this one:

http://www.radiapro.net/uploads/NEO10DataSheet.pdf

would be better than:

http://www.radiapro.net/uploads/DataBook10pLogo.pdf

how is the availability / price on those ?
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post #21 of 26 Old 12-06-2008, 07:25 PM
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i would rather get an electrostatic panel with curvature to overcome the beaming issue

Well, it helps hide it but it doesn't really overcome it. Do the math -- wide sources (wider than a wavelength) aren't really all that good for high frequencies no matter how you bend and shape them .

That said, plenty of people like stats run fullrange. Whatever sounds good to them is just fine with me.

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post #22 of 26 Old 12-06-2008, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Well, it helps hide it but it doesn't really overcome it. Do the math -- wide sources (wider than a wavelength) aren't really all that good for high frequencies no matter how you bend and shape them

that is WRONG.

cylinder is same as a line source no matter the radius.

sphere is same as a point no matter the radius.

if you want i can explain a universal way of thinking about all this so you will not need to memorize anything and will be able to analyze any geometry.
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post #23 of 26 Old 12-07-2008, 01:12 AM
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if you want i can explain

No, thanks.

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post #24 of 26 Old 12-07-2008, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by catapult View Post

No, thanks.

the problem with bent panel is that its not quite a cylinder ...

but then a regular panel is not quite a plane ...

so there will be some artifacts with both obviously.
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post #25 of 26 Old 12-08-2008, 09:35 AM
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Hey Vas,

There was one system I know of that used an electrostatic mid and ribbon tweets. It was the Mark Levinson HQD. It consisted of Hartley 24" woofers, a pair of stacked Quad 57s and a Decca ribbon tweet. It was state of the art when it was made (70's) and came very highly regarded, though I've never personally heard one.



BTW, if I understand line array theory correctly, any true line launches a cylindrical wave. It doesn't have to be a cylindrical shaped panel.
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post #26 of 26 Old 12-08-2008, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLemay View Post

BTW, if I understand line array theory correctly, any true line launches a cylindrical wave. It doesn't have to be a cylindrical shaped panel.

well obviously.

you should read the "Line, Point and Plane sources - implications for audio" article on my site.

basically you want to try and move away from sources with zero dimensions because they can never be anything but a gross approximation. a cylinder can be a real cylinder. a line can't be a real line - because a real line has zero width which is impossible in reality.
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