Butterworth Design Crossovers - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 03-06-2009, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Are these any good?
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post #2 of 22 Old 03-07-2009, 01:35 PM
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These what's? The name defines a shape of the filter. All first order follow this shape, as do most third's. They have no ripple in the pass band and the Q is .7 Their suitability is defined by the requirements. Until about 10 years ago, 99% of all crossovers used this shape.
You might refer to Sigfried Linkwitz's, ESP, Zaph, True Audio, or other WEB sites to read up on filter theory. The answer to your question is a resounding "it depends".
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post #3 of 22 Old 03-07-2009, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zildjian View Post

Are these any good?

Not as smooth as Mrs. Butterworth's.

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post #4 of 22 Old 03-08-2009, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

These what's? The name defines a shape of the filter. All first order follow this shape, as do most third's. They have no ripple in the pass band and the Q is .7 Their suitability is defined by the requirements. Until about 10 years ago, 99% of all crossovers used this shape.
You might refer to Sigfried Linkwitz's, ESP, Zaph, True Audio, or other WEB sites to read up on filter theory. The answer to your question is a resounding "it depends".

I am looking at some speakers that are using this crossover design. I have read ( what I can understand from all the jibberish ) both good and bad things about both passive, and active crossovers.

Can anyone explain in laymens terms some drawbacks or pro's of buying a speaker using this design.

Quote from the specs.
"Crossover Features Butterworth Design for Audio Equalization"
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post #5 of 22 Old 03-08-2009, 07:44 PM
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this forum is funny lately
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post #6 of 22 Old 03-08-2009, 07:52 PM
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There is nothing better or worse about a Butterworth alignment. It is what is right for the alignment.

A particular alignment in the crossover does not make a cabinet any "better" than another. There are MANY more important aspects that should be considered.

If you really want opinions, it would be VERY helpful if you gave a brand and model that you are talking about.

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post #7 of 22 Old 03-08-2009, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

There is nothing better or worse about a Butterworth alignment. It is what is right for the alignment.

A particular alignment in the crossover does not make a cabinet any "better" than another. There are MANY more important aspects that should be considered.

If you really want opinions, it would be VERY helpful if you gave a brand and model that you are talking about.

I'm just starting out. I just ordered a Pio Elite VSX-01TXH. I also need speakers. However I'm a single income family with two kids so money spent on my toys is limited. I am looking for a low cost speaker setup to get me by untill I have more to spend. I have read several realy good things about Fluance. Like I said I'm a newbie to home theater. I know what I think sounds good, however I do not have the budget to get what I want at this time, so thought I would give these a shot, if they turn out to be not so good than I am not out much.

http://www.fluance.com/fluan5speaks.html
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post #8 of 22 Old 03-09-2009, 03:16 AM
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You wanted a simple answer. Sorry.
I hate to mention this, but it would seem that you are trying to live beyond your means by wanting something you are not ready for yet. I know, we all want it all now, but then again, that is how we got into this economic mess!

Might I recommend you build one of the well proven DIY designs/kits for just the mains. Pick a $200 kit of parts and that will leave you the budget for odds and ends. If you build the box, you can get something approaching a reasonable speaker for $300. When you save up another 4 or 5 hundred, build a decent sub, and go on from there. Center last.

After you build a kit, you will know what a crossover is and then can start to understand how and why they are designed the way they are. There is no right way which is what makes DIY so much fun. Everyone can tune to their own choice of tradeoffs. Start off on the right foot, and the journey to HT bliss will be a much finer one.
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post #9 of 22 Old 03-09-2009, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zildjian View Post

I'm just starting out. I just ordered a Pio Elite VSX-01TXH. I also need speakers. However I'm a single income family with two kids so money spent on my toys is limited. I am looking for a low cost speaker setup to get me by untill I have more to spend. I have read several realy good things about Fluance. Like I said I'm a newbie to home theater. I know what I think sounds good, however I do not have the budget to get what I want at this time, so thought I would give these a shot, if they turn out to be not so good than I am not out much.

http://www.fluance.com/fluan5speaks.html

for that money it couldn't hurt to try them out. But I think worrying about crossover slope shapes on a set of 5 speakers that cost under $300 is a little pointless.

Also, may I ask why you went with the VSX-01 instead of the 1018 since they are the same receiver and the 1018 can usually be found much cheaper? I'm just curious
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post #10 of 22 Old 03-09-2009, 07:32 AM
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You may also want to look at thespeakercompany.com for another budget alternative. It also seems like TSC might be a step up in quality from fluance given their reviews.
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post #11 of 22 Old 03-09-2009, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zildjian View Post

I am looking at some speakers that are using this crossover design. I have read ( what I can understand from all the jibberish ) both good and bad things about both passive, and active crossovers.

Can anyone explain in laymens terms some drawbacks or pro's of buying a speaker using this design.

Quote from the specs.
"Crossover Features Butterworth Design for Audio Equalization"

In this instance, it is an example of techno-babble. While there are Butterworth filters and they are appropriate in many situations and, in addition, they may be used in these speakers, its use is mostly irrelevant to you. Using the term in the ad is to impress those who do not fully understand what it means. It is not a basis on which to select or reject a speaker.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #12 of 22 Old 03-09-2009, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

You wanted a simple answer. Sorry.
I hate to mention this, but it would seem that you are trying to live beyond your means by wanting something you are not ready for yet. I know, we all want it all now, but then again, that is how we got into this economic mess!

Might I recommend you build one of the well proven DIY designs/kits for just the mains. Pick a $200 kit of parts and that will leave you the budget for odds and ends. If you build the box, you can get something approaching a reasonable speaker for $300. When you save up another 4 or 5 hundred, build a decent sub, and go on from there. Center last.

After you build a kit, you will know what a crossover is and then can start to understand how and why they are designed the way they are. There is no right way which is what makes DIY so much fun. Everyone can tune to their own choice of tradeoffs. Start off on the right foot, and the journey to HT bliss will be a much finer one.

I would love to get a kit, and I think I would appreciate the speakers that much more knowing I built them, as I love making things with my own hands, and am pretty good with working with power tools. However I do not have the means to right now, as I am in an apartment, and do not currently have a workhorse, skill saw etc...

I would also like to add I am not living beyond my means, hence the budget speakers. I will upgrade when I have the means, otherwise I would just charge them.

I have waited over a year before making the plunge since I bought my new Sony kds60a3000 last year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zero the hero View Post

for that money it couldn't hurt to try them out. But I think worrying about crossover slope shapes on a set of 5 speakers that cost under $300 is a little pointless.

Also, may I ask why you went with the VSX-01 instead of the 1018 since they are the same receiver and the 1018 can usually be found much cheaper? I'm just curious

I did'nt I was kinda forced into the vsx-01. Long story short waiting for tax returns to come all the while watching all the deals going on, and and watching them disappear day by day when I finaly got the money I put it on my card, and ordered a 1018 online. Well the next day it showed back ordered. So I waited for like two weeks or more, and got an E-Mail stating they were not getting anymore. Well all this time my card showed the money to them pending, and was otherwise tied up, so I could not get it anywhere else. I talked to the manager, and explained by frustration (To put it mildly) as now I could not buy it anywhere for the price they were charging for it. So I asked him to upgrade me to the vsx-01 for the same price as pioneer did a while back when they ran out of them. He agreed, and gave me the deal, so in the end I made out pretty good, however I much prefer the white LED display of the pio, but that is just cosmetic. There is more to this story as I just got an E-mail from them stating that there shipment of VSX-01 was damaged and had to send it back. Now I am waiting for their next shipment. For my troubles I am trying to get them to through in complete sets of Bananna Plugs for all my speakers ( when I get them ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemist1117 View Post

You may also want to look at thespeakercompany.com for another budget alternative. It also seems like TSC might be a step up in quality from fluance given their reviews.

I have been, and am highly considering them as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

In this instance, it is an example of techno-babble. While there are Butterworth filters and they are appropriate in many situations and, in addition, they may be used in these speakers, its use is mostly irrelevant to you. Using the term in the ad is to impress those who do not fully understand what it means. It is not a basis on which to select or reject a speaker.

This is why I asked, to see if it was just a term they were thowing out there to see if it was relevant. Like I stated I am new to this, and have been trying to absorb as much information on audio as I can so I can make informed decisions.

Thanks for all of your input!
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post #13 of 22 Old 03-09-2009, 03:11 PM
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In an apartment, well, at least you don't have to worry about a sub. Actually, you don't even want floor-standers. Anything below about 60 Hz will cause you a problem. Bass costs money so that is on your side.
I have seen some very good deals on Warfdale Diamonds. Very good for the price, but they are very laid back. Translate that as more high end rolloff that the US market prefers. Typical British voicing. I still can't advocate speakers that cheap though. Throw-away is not good economics.
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post #14 of 22 Old 03-09-2009, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

In an apartment, well, at least you don't have to worry about a sub. Actually, you don't even want floor-standers. Anything below about 60 Hz will cause you a problem. Bass costs money so that is on your side.

That depends on the building and on its inhabitants. I have had many speakers in my apartment. Currently using a 5.1 setup with 3xB&W802D, 2xB&W804s and a jl Audio f113 sub. I have had only 2 complaints in 20 years, both from the same woman and she has moved away.

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post #15 of 22 Old 03-09-2009, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

In an apartment, well, at least you don't have to worry about a sub. Actually, you don't even want floor-standers. Anything below about 60 Hz will cause you a problem. Bass costs money so that is on your side.
I have seen some very good deals on Warfdale Diamonds. Very good for the price, but they are very laid back. Translate that as more high end rolloff that the US market prefers. Typical British voicing. I still can't advocate speakers that cheap though. Throw-away is not good economics.

I'm sure when I am ready to upgrade I can find a use for them, either give them to a friend or relative, or sell them. Either way, I still want decent sound on a budget, ( for now ) anyway.
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post #16 of 22 Old 03-10-2009, 01:45 PM
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Kal,
I guess the fine folks in Cn. have a bit more patience than in Md. Or the way they build junk apartment buildings here, you would have the County's finest at your door in seconds. I have enough problem in my house with the 60 Hz one note car distortion generators I can here when they turn the corner a half mile away. 6PM, OK whatever, but at 10PM, not a happy camper. They can actually cause pain in my sinuses.
Invest in hearing aid companies, as we have a entire generation that will be needing them real soon!
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post #17 of 22 Old 03-10-2009, 01:52 PM
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I guess the fine folks in Cn. have a bit more patience than in Md. Or the way they build junk apartment buildings here, you would have the County's finest at your door in seconds.

My apartment is in Manhattan.

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post #18 of 22 Old 03-10-2009, 03:54 PM
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Maybe they can't tell it from the street noise!
I bet your building is a lot more solid. I live about a mile from I50, and the steady LF from 100 down makes decent measurements almost impossible. Slab house brought to you by the inventor of suburbia, Levit and Sons. "Little houses made of ticky-tacky all the same". Yea, that one. 2x4 studs, cardboard siding, 1/2 rock and 2 inches insulation.
Makes me wonder if it effects my sleep. Light pollution, noise pollution, water pollution ( at least you have fantastic water)
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post #19 of 22 Old 03-10-2009, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

Maybe they can't tell it from the street noise!
I bet your building is a lot more solid. I live about a mile from I50, and the steady LF from 100 down makes decent measurements almost impossible. Slab house brought to you by the inventor of suburbia, Levit and Sons. "Little houses made of ticky-tacky all the same". Yea, that one. 2x4 studs, cardboard siding, 1/2 rock and 2 inches insulation.
Makes me wonder if it effects my sleep. Light pollution, noise pollution, water pollution ( at least you have fantastic water)

I understand. I have much more of a problem with measurements in my CT house because of transient traffic noise. That house is an 1890 wood construction (expanded in 1924) and seems transparent to the traffic noise. Fortunately, the traffic is not constant and otherwise the sound levels in the evenings are below 20dB.

The Manhattan apartment is right on 3rd Avenue but it is subjectively quieter because any noise is very low in frequency. Construction is post-WWII, solid poured/reinforced concrete and we have installed triple-pane windows. There is occasional LF noise from an idling bus but, once I realized what that LF drone was, it no longer bothers me.

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post #20 of 22 Old 03-10-2009, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zildjian View Post

I'm sure when I am ready to upgrade I can find a use for them, either give them to a friend or relative, or sell them. Either way, I still want decent sound on a budget, ( for now ) anyway.

Actually when it comes to my neighbors you can call me " Jimmy Cracked Corn, and I don't care ) As long as I am not blasting it in the middle of the night they can deal with it. In Oregon there really isn't noise laws until after 10:00 on weeknights, and midnight on weekends. At least from what I remember when I had my last Marantz rack system before the EX got it in the split.
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post #21 of 22 Old 03-10-2009, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm relay liking these speakers that he made here

http://home.comcast.net/~kidder/Audio/4eleven/411.htm
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post #22 of 22 Old 03-11-2009, 02:06 PM
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Wonderful work. The last picture says it all!
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