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post #3991 of 4448 Old 03-09-2018, 07:49 AM
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Hey guys,

I was hoping to get a little advice. I just purchased a mini dsp 2x4hd w/ UMIK with the original intention on EQing dual subs. I currently use a denon x1300w avr without any additional pre/power amps. If I were to purchase a chrome cast audio for spotify streaming, would I be able to EQ my L/R in addition to my dual subs using my AVR on direct mode and RCA inputs? Thanks for all your help.

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Chris
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post #3992 of 4448 Old 03-09-2018, 08:36 AM
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As long as the Chromecast can supply an appropriate input for the miniDSP, you could do that. However, it will require a second miniDSP if you’re using your current one for the subs.

BTW, EQing main speakers can be tricky. If you’ve never done it, it would be a good idea to first review this thread.

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post #3993 of 4448 Old 03-09-2018, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austin2192 View Post
I currently use a denon x1300w avr without any additional pre/power amps. If I were to purchase a chrome cast audio for spotify streaming, would I be able to EQ my L/R in addition to my dual subs using my AVR on direct mode and RCA inputs?
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Originally Posted by Wayne A. Pflughaupt View Post
As long as the Chromecast can supply an appropriate input for the miniDSP, you could do that. However, it will require a second miniDSP if you’re using your current one for the subs.
That won't work as he stated he doesn't have any external amps.

Chris, there is no way to do what you want with just the equipment you have already. What you want to achieve requires that you pass the Chromecast signal through the MiniDSP before it gets to whatever is powering your L/R speakers. If it is your AVR then you will need another AVR or pre-pro to connect the Chromecast to then pass the signal through the MiniDSP then back to your AVR that is powering your L/R speakers. This essentially is making your AVR a glorified power amp. The other option is to get an external amp and connect your L/R speakers to that. Then you can connect the Chromecast to the AVR then the AVR out to the MiniDSP which is connected to your external amplifiers.

In any scenario you will need another MiniDSP if you are using the subs for LFE duties. You can use a single MiniDSP, but that will mean you lose the LFE channel. You just set the AVR to no subs so the LFE channel is mixed into the L/R speakers then you can use the MiniDSP to split frequencies. As you can see, any option you choose will require additional investment into equipment you don't have that you will need to do what you want.
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post #3994 of 4448 Old 03-09-2018, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post
That won't work as he stated he doesn't have any external amps.
If I read his post correctly, he intends to use the mini between the Chromecast and an input on his AVR.

It’s hard to find out exactly what kind of outputs the Chromecast has, but if they’re something the miniDSP will accept – analog, optical or USB – it could be used that way. No exetrnal amps needed.

Of course, the caveat is that the miniDSP will only be providing EQ for the Chromecast, and no other signal source.

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Last edited by Wayne A. Pflughaupt; 03-09-2018 at 09:13 AM.
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post #3995 of 4448 Old 03-09-2018, 09:11 AM
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post #3996 of 4448 Old 03-09-2018, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne A. Pflughaupt View Post
If I read his post correctly, he intends to use the mini between the Chromecast and an input on his AVR.

It’s hard to find out exactly what kind of outputs the Chromecast has, but if they’re something the miniDSP will accept – analog, optical or USB – it could be used that way. No exetrnal amps needed.

Of course, the caveat is that the miniDSP will only be providing EQ for the Chromecast, and no other signal source.

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Wayne A. Pflughaupt
I was just saying that it cannot be done in any way without additional hardware. The Chromecast is a dongle that connects to an HDMI input. That's the only connector it has.

But you are correct. The MiniDSP would have to sit between the Chromecast (with something providing the connection between HDMI to RCA/Phoenix like another AVR, pre-pro or converter box) and the AVR or external amp. The best option would be an external amp and second MiniDSP to achieve his goals.

My question would be why go through all this trouble to bypass the AVR EQ just to do EQ in the MiniDSP?
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post #3997 of 4448 Old 03-09-2018, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post
I was just saying that it cannot be done in any way without additional hardware. The Chromecast is a dongle that connects to an HDMI input. That's the only connector it has.
The Audio version (I think that’s what Chris is asking about) appears to have some additional outputs, from what I can see at the link below (see “Step 1”).

Dislaimer: I don’t have this device, so all I have to go on is what I can dig up online.

https://allaboutchromecast.com/chrom...omecast-audio/


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post #3998 of 4448 Old 03-09-2018, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne A. Pflughaupt View Post
The Audio version (I think that’s what Chris is asking about) appears to have some additional outputs, from what I can see at the link below (see “Step 1”).

Dislaimer: I don’t have this device, so all I have to go on is what I can dig up online.

https://allaboutchromecast.com/chrom...omecast-audio/


Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Thanks for the info. I had no idea they had an audio only version of the Chromecast. He will still need a second MiniDSP as both you and I had mentioned though.
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post #3999 of 4448 Old 03-09-2018, 01:40 PM
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Thanks for all the advice guys. It seems EQing L/R might be more trouble than it's worth, especially since Audyssey does a good job with EQ as it is.
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post #4000 of 4448 Old 05-08-2018, 09:47 AM
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Running into a minor issue with the installation of the softrware of MiniDSP 2x4HD, and hoping someone can help.

I was able to install the software/plugin just fine per the instructions in the PDF. Where things go south is when I try and install the USB driver on Win10.

Per the instructions -

3.1.3 USB Driver installation 1. Connect the 2x4 HD to the computer using the supplied USB cable, and power it on. 2. Navigate to the WinDrivers folder of the software download and double-click on the appropriate installer:  miniDSP_UAC2_v2.29.0_ForWinXP_Vista.exe for Windows XP and Vista  miniDSP_UAC2_v3.34.0_ForWin7_8_10.exe for Windows 7, 8, and 10

Problem is I do not see the Win10 driver in the WinDrivers folder structure after extracting the files. Is the documentation out of date, where is the Win10 USB driver so that I can connect to the MiniDSP? I tried 4.11.0._2017 -6-19_Setup to no avail.
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post #4001 of 4448 Old 05-08-2018, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eiger View Post
Running into a minor issue with the installation of the softrware of MiniDSP 2x4HD, and hoping someone can help.

I was able to install the software/plugin just fine per the instructions in the PDF. Where things go south is when I try and install the USB driver on Win10.

Per the instructions -

3.1.3 USB Driver installation 1. Connect the 2x4 HD to the computer using the supplied USB cable, and power it on. 2. Navigate to the WinDrivers folder of the software download and double-click on the appropriate installer:  miniDSP_UAC2_v2.29.0_ForWinXP_Vista.exe for Windows XP and Vista  miniDSP_UAC2_v3.34.0_ForWin7_8_10.exe for Windows 7, 8, and 10

Problem is I do not see the Win10 driver in the WinDrivers folder structure after extracting the files. Is the documentation out of date, where is the Win10 USB driver so that I can connect to the MiniDSP? I tried 4.11.0._2017 -6-19_Setup to no avail.
The bottom one. Have you installed it? If you did simply start the miniDSP plugin...click Connect on top right and it should work.

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post #4002 of 4448 Old 05-08-2018, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
The bottom one. Have you installed it? If you did simply start the miniDSP plugin...click Connect on top right and it should work.
Yea, that's the one I installed. Couple of behaviors going on. This is a Surface Book running Windows 10.

1) it says the installation completed, and that in order to complete I need to disconect the dsp and reconnect. No matter how many different ports, rebooting etc, I am getting "USB Device not recognized" .

2) The device does not appear in device manager at all in the list. It also is not detected in the MiniDSP control panel

3) I am able to open the MiniDSP software on my desktop bring up the UI. However, when I attempt to "connect" to it it fails saying the board isn't reachable.
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I am planning on using my balanced 2x4 to time align my 4 sub woofers. I have a Marantz AV7003 that has two discreet subwoofer preouts that have independent gains and delay settings. I have a 4 channel iNuke NU4-6000. Subs are setup on the front and back walls 1/4 of the way from the side walls.

My question is should I use both sub outputs from the preamp or just one and let the MiniDSP handle everything? I'm leaning towards use using a single sub preout.
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post #4004 of 4448 Old 05-08-2018, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jdiesel87 View Post
I am planning on using my balanced 2x4 to time align my 4 sub woofers. I have a Marantz AV7003 that has two discreet subwoofer preouts that have independent gains and delay settings. I have a 4 channel iNuke NU4-6000. Subs are setup on the front and back walls 1/4 of the way from the side walls.

My question is should I use both sub outputs from the preamp or just one and let the MiniDSP handle everything? I'm leaning towards use using a single sub preout.
You should take a look at the MSO (Multi-Sub Optimizer) thread.
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post #4005 of 4448 Old 05-08-2018, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jdiesel87 View Post
I am planning on using my balanced 2x4 to time align my 4 sub woofers.
I would caution about time aligning subs as a default starting point.
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Subs are setup on the front and back walls 1/4 of the way from the side walls.
That's good placement, since it will cancel the first three width modes and all the odd (1st, 3rd, 5th) length modes in your room. One of the reasons this is effective is because all the subs are playing the same signal simultaneously, allowing their interaction to have beneficial results. IF time aligning those subs means that some of those signals are delayed relative to others, then there goes the effectiveness of your mode cancellation. No harm in trying time alignment (won't harm anything), but don't be surprised if results aren't an improvement over not time aligning your subs.
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My question is should I use both sub outputs from the preamp or just one and let the MiniDSP handle everything? I'm leaning towards use using a single sub preout.
I'd lean the same way as you: single sub output from your pre-pro into the miniDSP should be all that's needed.
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post #4006 of 4448 Old 05-08-2018, 03:21 PM
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@sdurani ,

Are you saying that if you have 4 subs, optimally placed, there is no need to time-align them?

Please, tell me more! I've never heard this before.
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post #4007 of 4448 Old 05-08-2018, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eiger View Post
Yea, that's the one I installed. Couple of behaviors going on. This is a Surface Book running Windows 10.

1) it says the installation completed, and that in order to complete I need to disconect the dsp and reconnect. No matter how many different ports, rebooting etc, I am getting "USB Device not recognized" .

2) The device does not appear in device manager at all in the list. It also is not detected in the MiniDSP control panel

3) I am able to open the MiniDSP software on my desktop bring up the UI. However, when I attempt to "connect" to it it fails saying the board isn't reachable.
Uninstall everything, reboot, install USB driver again, then plugin...then retry. While at it also unplug miniDSP from power and turn it back on again.
Btw, what USB ports are we talking about? 2.0, 3.0?

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post #4008 of 4448 Old 05-08-2018, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
@sdurani ,

Are you saying that if you have 4 subs, optimally placed, there is no need to time-align them?

Please, tell me more! I've never heard this before.
It's nothing new. If you're placing subs for mode cancelling, then they should be outputting the same signal simultaneously and at the same level (gain matched, not level matched from the listening position).

If you're not placing subs for mode cancelling, then you can play with delay until you get the results you want. For example, if you're doing a double bass array with subs on the front and back walls, you can delay the subs on the back wall until you get the best results at your listening position. When you check how much you delayed your back wall subs, don't be surprised if that number doesn't match your relative distance to those subs.

Same with trying MSO or SFM to minimize seat-to-seat variation using multiple subs. Each sub will likely have a different delay computed for it, though it would be rare for any of those delays to match relative distance to each sub (time alignment).

Likewise when doing subwoofer-speaker blending. If you end up with a notch at/near the crossover point, you can delay the sub(s) until the frequency response smooths out. Now your subwoofer is no longer time aligned (gasp), but you do have a smoother blend with the speaker.

Again, no harm in trying time alignment (it won't hurt anything). In my experience it has made the response worse more often than it has made it better. YMMV.
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post #4009 of 4448 Old 05-08-2018, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Likewise when doing subwoofer-speaker blending. If you end up with a notch at/near the crossover point, you can delay the sub(s) until the frequency response smooths out. Now your subwoofer is no longer time aligned (gasp), but you do have a smoother blend with the speaker.

Again, no harm in trying time alignment (it won't hurt anything). In my experience it has made the response worse more often than it has made it better. YMMV.
It could sound bad if you are doing it wrong. First you align speaker and sub...by delaying the early one. Then you phase align them for smoothest response. Then you invert polarity of sub (not phase) and time align it again for smoothest response. Then you pick one of these two that has smallest amount of delay.

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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
It could sound bad if you are doing it wrong. First you align speaker and sub...by delaying the early one. Then you phase align them for smoothest response. Then you invert polarity of sub (not phase) and time align it again for smoothest response. Then you pick one of these two that has smallest amount of delay.
After doing all that, will the delays match the numbers you would have gotten from time aligning them?

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
After doing all that, will the delays match the numbers you would have gotten from time aligning them?
Obv not if they are not phase aligned when you time aligned them at first, but like I said, you are getting the smallest amount of delay this way. You could always do it incorrectly in few different ways and get good FR at crossover but "sloppy" bass. E.g. delaying speaker that arrives late already, or simply adding much more delay then necessary although you could get same result with less delay.

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not trying to be a D* but why wouldn't you just let your AVR/Pre-amp/processor do the timing/phase portion of the work?
Leave the DSP to important things like lower frequencies for your subs, flatter response, SPL etc.
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Originally Posted by eiger View Post
not trying to be a D* but why wouldn't you just let your AVR/Pre-amp/processor do the timing/phase portion of the work?
Leave the DSP to important things like lower frequencies for your subs, flatter response, SPL etc.
It sometimes "misses" a bit, needs to be tweaked. E.g. it might have perfect timing/phase with center channel but front L and R look horrible...

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Obv not if they are not phase aligned when you time aligned them at first, but like I said, you are getting the smallest amount of delay this way.
That was my point: time aligning doesn't always yield optimal results.
Quote:
You could always do it incorrectly in few different ways and get good FR at crossover but "sloppy" bass. E.g. delaying speaker that arrives late already, or simply adding much more delay then necessary although you could get same result with less delay.
Why would smoothening out the sub/sat blend result in sloppy bass?

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Interesting conversation. I will spend some time taking measurements prior to time aligning my subwoofers. Primary reason for having 4 subwoofers is for mode cancellation and not output. I currently have a null between 60-70hz that I haven't been able to deal with through room treatment. Room is 21.5'x10.5'x7.75' and the main listening position is approximately 7' from the back wall.

I can't believe I am just learning about MSO until now. I will hop over to that thread and start doing some reading.

I should mention that I am not happy with what Audyssey SubEQ HT is doing currently. I have the front two subs on one subwoofer channel and the back two subs on the another.

Last edited by Jdiesel87; 05-09-2018 at 11:07 AM.
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
That was my point: time aligning doesn't always yield optimal results.
Just because you "time aligned" subs and mains doesn't at all mean its optimal. Low frequencies hardly ever arrive to listening position at the same time, in fact, the lower you go in frequencies group delay increases often up to 30 ms (and gets even worse with EQ and HPF in place). Adding few miliseconds of delay more on top of that to smoothen out response between subs and mains definitely wont ruin the end result...in fact, that would be the most optimal solution.

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Why would smoothening out the sub/sat blend result in sloppy bass?
I suspected you knew this since you were getting perceptively suboptimal results when doing that...buy anyway, here it is: as you increase delay between sub and mains the arrival time of "waveforms" gets delayed...so although frequency response may look flat, when for example kick drum slams and transient attack arrives at one speaker 50 ms later then in other...you get SLOP, when they arrive at same time or within a certain window of miliseconds you get a PUNCH. You can try this in any DAW, make two tracks with identical kick bass, put HPF on one and LPF on other that sums them perfectly at say 80 Hz and then keep delaying one track milisecond by milisecond until you lose punch and get slop. Use headphones...or only one LF driver.

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post #4017 of 4448 Old 05-09-2018, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Just because you "time aligned" subs and mains doesn't at all mean its optimal. Adding few miliseconds of delay more on top of that to smoothen out response between subs and mains definitely wont ruin the end result...in fact, that would be the most optimal solution.
Isn't that what I said earlier?
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
If you end up with a notch at/near the crossover point, you can delay the sub(s) until the frequency response smooths out. Now your subwoofer is no longer time aligned (gasp), but you do have a smoother blend with the speaker.
Quote:
...as you increase delay between sub and mains the arrival time of "waveforms" gets delayed...so although frequency response may look flat, when for example kick drum slams and transient attack arrives at one speaker 50 ms later then in other...you get SLOP, when they arrive at same time or within a certain window of miliseconds you get a PUNCH.
Who's talking about adding 50 ms of delay at the crossover point? Where did that number come from?

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post #4018 of 4448 Old 05-09-2018, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Isn't that what I said earlier?
I think you first said that smoothing out frequency response didn't work out great for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Who's talking about adding 50 ms of delay at the crossover point? Where did that number come from?
I just threw a random number there...if you want to find out how much delay is necessary to muddy things up, test it out yourself.

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post #4019 of 4448 Old 05-09-2018, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I think you first said that smoothing out frequency response didn't work out great for you.
Can you quote where I said that? (none of my posts have been edited)
Quote:
I just threw a random number there...
The random number you threw out implies 57 feet of difference between the speaker and sub. How is that relevant to the typical home theatre sized room?
Quote:
...if you want to find out how much delay is necessary to muddy things up, test it out yourself.
Who is talking about adding enough delay "necessary to muddy things up"? As you said, a few milliseconds of delay to smooth the response won't ruin things. It's as though you're arguing against something you imagined I said rather than what I actually posted.
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post #4020 of 4448 Old 05-09-2018, 01:33 PM
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Sorry one more question, if I use the 4-Way advanced plugin can I bridge a single input to all 4 outputs internally or do I need to use a y-cable to split the preamp output into both inputs on the MiniDSP?
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