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post #4201 of 4406 Old 02-12-2019, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You are saying he can do manually what a Dirac Live calibration does, Jeff? I don't think so.
C’mon, AJ. I purposely omit when the absurdity level hits the one attained by his post.

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post #4202 of 4406 Old 02-12-2019, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
C’mon, AJ. I purposely omit when the absurdity level hits the one attained by his post.

Jeff
Sorry, for a moment I thought you were serious. My bad.
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post #4203 of 4406 Old 02-12-2019, 09:56 PM
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I'm not sure what's absurd about my post. We know that the hardware of the MiniDSP 2x4HD is the same as the DDRC-24 so we know the two devices have the same capability. And you'd be using the same mic when taking measurements for both devices (meaning there isn't a special Dirac mic for the DDRC) so that's also a constant. So unless MiniDSP purposefully omits features on the regular 2x4HD plugin that the Dirac plugin can take advantage of, you can manually configure a regular 2x4HD to use the same settings as those the Dirac plugin would. We also know that Dirac is an algorithm that looks at the response readings and deterministically makes decisions about the optimum settings based on criteria that has been preprogrammed into it. So in order to manually reproduce the results of a Dirac calibration, we'd just have to understand how it makes decisions and determines what settings are optimal. And this is just to match it in performance. It's possible, and I'd expect, that their algorithm errs on the side of caution in order to work better over a more varied set of conditions. So if you knew what you were doing, it's possible that you could end up with a better manual calibration than what Dirac could do. The reason I am asking specifically what Dirac is looking for and tuning is so that I can start off by mimicking its behavior in order to have a more guided starting point in learning more about FIR filters.

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post #4204 of 4406 Old 02-12-2019, 11:54 PM
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It is not absurd at all as Dirac is not the only piece of software out there Rephase and/or drc (http://drc-fir.sourceforge.net) would be the obvious ones to try, firdesigner might be another (not sure it is can produce shorter filters though). There are threads on diyaudio for the first two.
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post #4205 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by CrusherW9 View Post
I'm not sure what's absurd about my post.
See below. Special emphasis has been placed on the absurd premise on which your theory is based.
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So in order to manually reproduce the results of a Dirac calibration, we'd just have to understand how it makes decisions and determines what settings are optimal. And this is just to match it in performance. It's possible, and I'd expect, that their algorithm errs on the side of caution in order to work better over a more varied set of conditions. So if you knew what you were doing, it's possible that you could end up with a better manual calibration than what Dirac could do.
I think that there are published scientific papers and presentations available that delve deeply into the theories behind Dirac. Deeply. By the world-class PhD’s behind it. Of course they don’t reveal their algorithms, so along with grasping the theories, you’d need to develop ways to implement the theories. So go for it.

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post #4206 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 05:49 AM
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Yep, git 'em outta the way!

.... uhhh, is there a "direct" input that bypasses all that stuff? It might be called a LFE input .. or some such thing.
Yes, my subs have such an input. Why? Others, have said that it really doesn't matter which input is used when sending the subs audio. That's a general statement and not about this setup process we are discussing here. So, the audio output varies by which sub input port is chosen? Sorry, OT, maybe?

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post #4207 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 05:58 AM
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Yes, my subs have such an input. Why? Others, have said that it really doesn't matter which input is used when sending the subs audio. That's a general statement and not about this setup process we are discussing here. So, the audio output varies by which sub input port is chosen? Sorry, OT, maybe?
Honestly, I haven’t read AJ’s material, but from the good ol’ Days when Audyssey was the cat’s meow, the basic instructions were to bypass, defeat or set onboard subwoofer controls to the point where they interfere the least.

Your description of your controls caused a light to come on and ask about an LFE input. Use it. It BYPASSES the sub’s crossover and LPF circuits. Then you can ignore them.

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post #4208 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 06:34 AM
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Honestly, I haven’t read AJ’s material, but from the good ol’ Days when Audyssey was the cat’s meow, the basic instructions were to bypass, defeat or set onboard subwoofer controls to the point where they interfere the least.

Your description of your controls caused a light to come on and ask about an LFE input. Use it. It BYPASSES the sub’s crossover and LPF circuits. Then you can ignore them.

Jeff
Thanks.. This is the first time that I ever heard this suggestion? Then you would never change it back, since one would be using the DSP and REW and AccuEQ adjustments to control sub performance? Love that concept?

Chuck
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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Thanks.. This is the first time that I ever heard this suggestion? Then you would never change it back, since one would be using the DSP and REW and AccuEQ adjustments to control sub performance? Love that concept?

Chuck
Chuck, I have added the following sentence at the beginning of my guide: "Check your sub’s settings before starting—if there is a crossover and/or LPF control, turn these controls off, or adjust the settings to their highest value."

I trust this will remove any confusion.
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post #4210 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 09:36 AM
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Crossover?

Hi guys,

How should I set my LP filter on the minidsp? Right now I have it "bypassed" as I use the AVR to set the crossover. Is this correct?

Thanks
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post #4211 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Chuck, I have added the following sentence at the beginning of my guide: "Check your sub’s settings before starting—if there is a crossover and/or LPF control, turn these controls off, or adjust the settings to their highest value."

I trust this will remove any confusion.
"Or use an input that bypasses these circuits, e.g. an "LFE input."
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Thanks.. This is the first time that I ever heard this suggestion? Then you would never change it back, since one would be using the DSP and REW and AccuEQ adjustments to control sub performance? Love that concept?

Chuck
Happy to have assisted in your enlightenment!
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post #4213 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 09:52 AM
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Hi guys,

How should I set my LP filter on the minidsp? Right now I have it "bypassed" as I use the AVR to set the crossover. Is this correct?

Thanks
I could think of a possible use for the MiniDSP's low pass filter, i.e. to protect a sub from receiving very low frequencies that could damage it. Though I don't recall ever reading any specific cases.

Anyone else?

Jeff
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post #4214 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Happy to have assisted in your enlightenment!
Thanks. Us, 76 years old Mechanical Engineers get lost in this "electrical sh_t"..

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post #4215 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Chuck, I have added the following sentence at the beginning of my guide: "Check your sub’s settings before starting—if there is a crossover and/or LPF control, turn these controls off, or adjust the settings to their highest value."

I trust this will remove any confusion.
Thanks. Jeff's suggestion is good, also.

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post #4216 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 10:23 AM
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How should I set my LP filter on the minidsp? Right now I have it "bypassed" as I use the AVR to set the crossover. Is this correct?
That depends on your setup. Filters are not a brick wall. They are a slope that begins near the crossover point as defined by the slope of the filter expressed in #dBs/octave. I'm not sure what the slope of your AVR's crossover is but you can use the filter on the MiniDSP to further attenuate the frequencies that are getting past the AVR's filter.

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I could think of a possible use for the MiniDSP's low pass filter, i.e. to protect a sub from receiving very low frequencies that could damage it. Though I don't recall ever reading any specific cases.
I think you have that reversed. A LPF filters all frequencies above the set frequency and only allows frequencies below that to pass through. So if you set a LPF of 120Hz then everything below that will pass while everything above will be filtered out according to the slope.

The HPF is what is used to prevent lower frequencies from passing on to the sub for protection. It is often employed to protect ported subs from playing too far below their tuning point. Subs with built-in plate amps already have this HPF set in the amp, but using the HPF inthe MiniDSP could be used for additional protection. See my explanation above regarding filtering slopes.
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post #4217 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 11:31 AM
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I think you have that reversed.
You are correct, I got my Lows and Highs mixed up!

Jeff
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You are correct, I got my Lows and Highs mixed up!

Jeff
It’s the pink pill for the highs, Jeff, and the white one for the lows...
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post #4219 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 11:56 AM
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It’s the pink pill for the highs, Jeff, and the white one for the lows...
Yes, one makes you smaller, too, I seem to remember.
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post #4220 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 01:51 PM
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I think that there are published scientific papers and presentations available that delve deeply into the theories behind Dirac. Deeply. By the world-class PhD’s behind it.
This is what I've been asking for the whole time. A suggestion to "read the docs on the site" was made and I couldn't find any useful information on their site. All they state is that they use a combination of IIR and FIR filters. I love math. If you know of published scientific papers and presentations about Dirac, can you link them so I can read them?

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Of course they don’t reveal their algorithms, so along with grasping the theories, you’d need to develop ways to implement the theories. So go for it.
I wouldn't expect them to detail it. But I would have expected someone on the internet to have compared pre and post calibration frequency response, impulse response, and filters in order to determine roughly what it's doing. You're talking as if I'm incapable of learning. Obviously I don't currently have a grasp on the theories; that's why I'm here! The theories have to exist outside of the Dirac engineers' minds so I came here to see if anyone had familiarity with them. But it looks like I need to head over to DIY Audio to ask those higher level questions without being mocked and dismissed.

P.S. I get the emails from AVS when someone quotes my posts. Nice edit

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Originally Posted by CrusherW9 View Post

P.S. I get the emails from AVS when someone quotes my posts. Nice edit [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]
Yea, I dialed it back so as to keep it academic and about your post and not a personal attack on you.

You seem to have generated a full head of steam on this so I am going to wait for further posts on your progress!

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This is what I've been asking for the whole time. A suggestion to "read the docs on the site" was made and I couldn't find any useful information on their site. All they state is that they use a combination of IIR and FIR filters. I love math. If you know of published scientific papers and presentations about Dirac, can you link them so I can read them?


I wouldn't expect them to detail it. But I would have expected someone on the internet to have compared pre and post calibration frequency response, impulse response, and filters in order to determine roughly what it's doing. You're talking as if I'm incapable of learning. Obviously I don't currently have a grasp on the theories; that's why I'm here! The theories have to exist outside of the Dirac engineers' minds so I came here to see if anyone had familiarity with them. But it looks like I need to head over to DIY Audio to ask those higher level questions without being mocked and dismissed.
This has never been a thread for discussions regarding the technical aspects of Dirac Live. And it has not really been a thread that focuses on implementing Dirac solutions with MiniDSP products. There are more discussions regarding implementing Dirac in the MiniDSP 88A thread. Soon after the 88A was released several years ago, there were discussions WRT how Dirac differs from othe room correction products. For example, I published REW measurements that compared Dirac and Audyssey (I used to be a big Audyssey fan), as well as measurements that compared my audio before and after a Dirac calibration. But even in the 88A thread, we never delved into what was happening “under the covers” with the Dirac technology in any detail. My interests, for example, have always been with how to implement technology, and not so much with how the technology actually works.

If you are looking for Dirac white papers to read, I think you would have the same success as any of us would have by doing some searching on the internet. And while meaning no disrespect, I firmly believe that it would be difficult for anyone to achieve the same results as a Dirac Live calibration by trying manual PEQ.
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post #4223 of 4406 Old 02-13-2019, 02:43 PM
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Thanks for the info. I'll look for that thread.

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Originally Posted by CrusherW9 View Post
I love math. If you know of published scientific papers and presentations about Dirac, can you link them so I can read them?
http://diracdocs.com/on_room_correction.pdf

For more, search for “dirac MATHIAS JOHANSSON aes”

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.. itlooks like I need to head over to DIY Audio to ask those higher level questions without being mocked and dismissed.
Let us know how that goes!

... returning to th thread topic ....
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This has never been a thread for discussions regarding the technical aspects of Dirac Live. And it has not really been a thread that focuses on implementing Dirac solutions with MiniDSP products. There are more discussions regarding implementing Dirac in the MiniDSP 88A thread. Soon after the 88A was released several years ago, there were discussions WRT how Dirac differs from othe room correction products. For example, I published REW measurements that compared Dirac and Audyssey (I used to be a big Audyssey fan), as well as measurements that compared my audio before and after a Dirac calibration. But even in the 88A thread, we never delved into what was happening “under the covers” with the Dirac technology in any detail. My interests, for example, have always been with how to implement technology, and not so much with how the technology actually works.

If you are looking for Dirac white papers to read, I think you would have the same success as any of us would have by doing some searching on the internet. And while meaning no disrespect, I firmly believe that it would be difficult for anyone to achieve the same results as a Dirac Live calibration by trying manual PEQ.

The algorithmic calibrations such as Dirac, Trinnov Optimizer, etc are doing quite a lot of calculating to reach a "Best" or "optimal" fit across multiple domains. They are trying to balance levels, delays, and frequency response while also working on phase as well. They are doing all this while trying to maintain the more reasonable seat-to-seat response as well. Of course, the initial quality, type, and placement of speakers and the room configuration affects sound, but that's already obvious.

I think the only thing these algos don't provide is what andy C's MSO or JBL Arcos provide which is frequency response optimization for subwoofers across many seating positions.

I have gotten good results with MSO (implemented in MiniDSP) with followup integration with mains using Trinnov Altitude, then followed up with precision crossover tweaking using REW measurements of the final results.

Once I got great results using a MSO/Mini-DSP, I pretty much locked those settings down, never to be touched again (permanent seat positions).

To your point, there is NO WAY I could have gotten similar results doing this manually. I don't have the complete technical knowledge of the target goals or methods to make that happen. Even if I did, the recursive methods that software uses to calculate "Best fit" cannot easily be replicated with a paper and pencil or manual trial and error.

I would say that MSO and room optimizers are serious technical achievements that should not be taken lightly or under-appreciated. The "purist" or "2-channel" crowd is definitely missing out in my opinion.

Blazar!
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Ok guys Need Some help...So i just got a mic and downloaded rew last week and been messing around with placement and gain adjustments and ran some sweeps .Now i recently got a minidsp 2x4 from someone to try out. Ive alraedy used rew like i said .I Was trying time align and eq 2 different subs at different distances from my mlp. Im using on an onkyo receiver with 2 sub outs but it has just single split signal so only can adjust distance level etc for 1 sub in settings of receiver. I hooked up the minidsp2x4 installed plugin for 4 way advanced crossover followed the guide in @AustinJerry signature. Maybe i misread the guide for how time align subs with the minidsp but Question: are you supposed to be able to run the signal sweeps in rew with the minidsp connected to the receiver/subs ? when i installed the 2x4 in my setup then tried measure in rew it didnt play anything on the subs. Nothing happened. Did i do something wrong or is it not supposed to? once i unhooked The Minidsp2x4 and hooked subs back up directly to receiver it wwould measure fine and play the signal sweep to the subs. Any help would be great thanks!
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post #4227 of 4406 Old 02-14-2019, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by golden78 View Post
Ok guys Need Some help...So i just got a mic and downloaded rew last week and been messing around with placement and gain adjustments and ran some sweeps .Now i recently got a minidsp 2x4 from someone to try out. Ive alraedy used rew like i said .I Was trying time align and eq 2 different subs at different distances from my mlp. Im using on an onkyo receiver with 2 sub outs but it has just single split signal so only can adjust distance level etc for 1 sub in settings of receiver. I hooked up the minidsp2x4 installed plugin for 4 way advanced crossover followed the guide in @AustinJerry signature. Maybe i misread the guide for how time align subs with the minidsp but Question: are you supposed to be able to run the signal sweeps in rew with the minidsp connected to the receiver/subs ? when i installed the 2x4 in my setup then tried measure in rew it didnt play anything on the subs. Nothing happened. Did i do something wrong or is it not supposed to? once i unhooked The Minidsp2x4 and hooked subs back up directly to receiver it wwould measure fine and play the signal sweep to the subs. Any help would be great thanks!
Make sure you bypass all of the crossovers in the MiniDSP, on the inputs and the outputs. Make sure all gains are set to "0" and you have your input/output routing set correctly. If you are using the non-HD MiniDSP, input 1 goes to outputs 1 and 3, while input 2 goes to outputs 2 and 4.
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post #4228 of 4406 Old 02-14-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Make sure you bypass all of the crossovers in the MiniDSP, on the inputs and the outputs. Make sure all gains are set to "0" and you have your input/output routing set correctly. If you are using the non-HD MiniDSP, input 1 goes to outputs 1 and 3, while input 2 goes to outputs 2 and 4.
thanks. ya i followed all the steps and bypassed crossovers so showed flat line for all of them and gain levels was at 0. ohhh ok i did output 1 and 2 with input 1 , but shouldn't it have at least played from 1 of my 2 subs? nothing played on either.
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post #4229 of 4406 Old 02-14-2019, 12:01 PM
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Yes, you run the REW sweeps with the MiniDSP in the signal chain. No sound could be due to a number of reasons and you have not stated how you have anything connected/configured.

1. How do you have the MiniDSP connected? What input/output channels are you using?
2. How are your filters configured? Are HPF/LPF set correctly?
3. Have you made sure you have not mute the output channels?
4. Have you made sure that the gains on the channels are not dialed all the way down?
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post #4230 of 4406 Old 02-14-2019, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Make sure you bypass all of the crossovers in the MiniDSP, on the inputs and the outputs. Make sure all gains are set to "0" and you have your input/output routing set correctly. If you are using the non-HD MiniDSP, input 1 goes to outputs 1 and 3, while input 2 goes to outputs 2 and 4.
No, Alan, when using the 4-Way Advanced plug-in, Input 1 is routed to all four outputs. The OP should make sure the single output from the AVR is hooked to Input 1 on the 2x4, and that muting is not turned on anywhere in the signal path. If still no signal, time to consider whether the 2x4 is defective.
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