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post #4351 of 4573 Old 06-04-2019, 06:39 AM
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Hi Please i need some help in deciding between which mini dsp (2x4 balanced or 2x4 HD) is best for me. I recently stumbled into the DIY threads and after some research i decided to build dual marty cubes with ULM 18's. A minidsp was suggested to be used with my crowns amps. i have no measurement experience and i plan to buy a UMIK 1 mic with whichever minidsp is recommended. My main focus is to use the minidsp for just sub duty (gear below).

1. Denon X4300
2. Dual Marty cubes - to be powered by an XLS 1500 &1502
3. SVS PB12 NSD
4. 3 Bass shakers - powered by an XLS 1000

Reading through the thread the balanced was earlier suggested and then later on someone else suggested using the usb from the HD into REW to help with the Bass shakers which just confused me further. i know that the output from both devices should be sufficient to drive my crown amps which was my main worry but i don't know if i need or benefit from the HD features.

Cost wise there is a package deal for the HD & UMIK 1 which is just about $50 more than the balanced & UMIK 1, which isn't too bad considering it has all rca inputs which will be easier for me to setup.

PS: I have read @AustinJerry 's post on building balanced cables for connection to the Phoenix block so i believe i'll be able to figure out how to do the unbalanced and balanced connections if the balanced minidsp is the better choice.

thanks in advance

Theater:JVC RS440, Elite 120". 7.1.4:RTi8, CSi5, FXiA4, RTiA3, 620-RT(4) & SVS PB12-NSD. Denon X4300H, UPA-700, Crown XLS1502 & XLS1000(2). Sony UBP-X800, Panasonic DP-UB424, Shield & ATV 4K. Lounge:Vizio M70-D3, Benq HT1075, & Elite 106". 7.1.4:RTi12, CSi5, RTiA1, TSx110, MC60(4), & RBH I-12. Marantz AV7702, Crown XLS1500, XLS1000(2) & Amp 100v2(2). Samsung UBD-K8500, LG BP440, Shield & ATV
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post #4352 of 4573 Old 06-09-2019, 11:50 AM
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Hello everyone,

I used to run with two Klipsch KW120 Ultra Subwoofer under my screen up front but recently ventured into DIY inspired through that JBL 1214 thread.

I am trying to align an array 4 JBLs on the side wall with the two Klipsch Ultra Subs on the front wall under the screen. (Another array of 4 JBLs on the right wall will follow this week).

As you can see I have EQed both Subs the JBL and the Klipsch and alone the look good, I think.

As soon as I try to run them together it gets ugly. I tried working with delays using AustinJerrys guide to no avail.

I am using a Mini-DSP 2x4 HD.

Anyone a recommendation?
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post #4353 of 4573 Old 06-09-2019, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nima View Post
Hello everyone,

I used to run with two Klipsch KW120 Ultra Subwoofer under my screen up front but recently ventured into DIY inspired through that JBL 1214 thread.

I am trying to align an array 4 JBLs on the side wall with the two Klipsch Ultra Subs on the front wall under the screen. (Another array of 4 JBLs on the right wall will follow this week).

As you can see I have EQed both Subs the JBL and the Klipsch and alone the look good, I think.

As soon as I try to run them together it gets ugly. I tried working with delays using AustinJerrys guide to no avail.

I am using a Mini-DSP 2x4 HD.

Anyone a recommendation?
Getting so many subs working properly together is never going to be an easy task. And adding four more will not make it easier. If it were me, I would start by measuring each sub by itself, and without any EQ. I would then make the REW MDAT file available here for downloading so that we could take a look at it. There are so many thinks to examine. For example, do all subs exhibit the same polarity? And is it better to EQ the combined 6-sub signal, rather than apply EQ to the pair of Klipsch’s and separate EQ to the four JBL’s? And you don’t mention—do you have any flexibility in moving the subs around your listening room? And finally, I recommend waiting until you get all the JBL’s in place before you make any more decisions, which means we will look for a REW MDAT file with ten separate sub measurements.

Edit: Also, how are the subs connected to the 2x4HD? What AVR are you using, and how many sub outputs does it have? And are you using automated room correction like Audyssey?
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post #4354 of 4573 Old 06-09-2019, 12:39 PM
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Hi, thank you for the quick response. The four JBL act as an array an are put into 2 double boxes (cb). They are wired in series and then the two boxes in parallel to give a 4 ohm load. I can provide measurments without EQ of the array. The reason I did not provide Global EQ to both Klipsch and the JBL is that the JBl require heavy dsp to reach low enough.
I take your advice and wait till the 2nd array is assembled this week.

I can change position of the array along the side walls left and right but not by too much.
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post #4355 of 4573 Old 06-09-2019, 12:40 PM
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I am using the NAD 758 v3 as an AVR/pre.

Nad into the MiniDsp from there the Klipschs one output and each array an output, so using 3 of the 4.
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post #4356 of 4573 Old 06-09-2019, 12:51 PM
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This is the second time I've seen s instead of "s." I'll mention it to admin.
Michael

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post #4357 of 4573 Old 06-09-2019, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nima View Post
I am using the NAD 758 v3 as an AVR/pre.

Nad into the MiniDsp from there the Klipschs one output and each array an output, so using 3 of the 4.
I also am curious why your responses have the “s” replaced with “s”. It certainly makes reading the responses more difficult.

I understand about the JBL array now. Perhaps you can provide measurements of the individual Klipsch’s and then a measurement of each JBL array.

Are you sing Dirac Live on the NAD?
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post #4358 of 4573 Old 06-09-2019, 01:16 PM
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Hi

Weird I was just using the mobil view on my phone. Maybe that is broken? (Chrome)

Yes of course I am using Dirac (full version) that was the USP for buying the NAD. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Will provide measurements soon. I am also trying to sell the Klipschs anyway (more JBLs.

The JBLs are working great as far as I can see. Only downside is that they require heavy EQ, had to cut a lot and boost the low end about 10dB. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Last edited by Nima; 06-09-2019 at 10:23 PM.
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post #4359 of 4573 Old 06-09-2019, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nima View Post
Hi

Weird I was just using the mobil view on my phone. Maybe that is broken? (Chrome)

Yes of course I am using Dirac (full version) that was the USP on buying the NAD.

Will provide measurements soon. I am also trying to sell the Klipschs anyway (more JBLs).

The JBLs are working great as far as I can see. Only downside is that they require heavy EQ, had to cut a lot and boost the low end about 10dB.
It would also be interesting to see a measurement of the combined sub response (Klipsch’s and JBL’s) after Dirac has applied correction. Also subs+center would be useful. Ultimately, we want to see how well the final bass response measures, including the contribution of the mains (particularly the center), and how well the subs and mains blend at the crossover point. Looking at the individual pieces may reveal issues that disappear when all the pieces are playing together. So many things to look at!
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post #4360 of 4573 Old 06-09-2019, 02:05 PM
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Just throwing this out there with no practical experience to back it up.

The Klipsch Ultras are ported right? The JBLs are sealed right? I would expect that there *might* have to be compromises to get them to work together.

I've never tried mixing ported and sealed, only sealed, and have no idea what the combined REW response would look like for ported + sealed subs. Maybe it doesn't matter and placement is the overwhelming factor. Just bringing it up as a possible "thing"...
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post #4361 of 4573 Old 06-10-2019, 01:20 AM
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Tried to edit my post which was written on my desktop PC with my mobile phone and all "S" got replaced. Something is wrong with the mobile view of the forum.
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post #4362 of 4573 Old 06-10-2019, 05:11 AM
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They're working on it.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/43-fo...364-115-s.html

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #4363 of 4573 Old 06-10-2019, 06:56 AM
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“Working on it” is overly optimistic.
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post #4364 of 4573 Old 06-10-2019, 07:18 AM
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What? We have a skeptic in our midst?

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #4365 of 4573 Old 06-10-2019, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
What? We have a skeptic in our midst?
[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]
Thought they were all on Emotiva thread?

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post #4366 of 4573 Old 06-10-2019, 02:26 PM
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Hey guys,
I tried running my mains through my 2x4 minidsp to add a HPF for them, but the result was a degradation in sound quality. I tried removing all filters and just sendt the signal straight through without any luck.

What I experience is that the sound somehow become veiled, like details and dynamics are missing.
Anyone here experienced something like this? And if so, did upgrading to say a 2x4HD or using the nanodigi to avoid the extra ad-da solve it?


Felix

My 2.1: Minidsp2x4 HD,Hypex UCD400HxR,SI HT-18,HTM-10
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post #4367 of 4573 Old 06-12-2019, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
It would also be interesting to see a measurement of the combined sub response (Klipsch’s and JBL’s) after Dirac has applied correction. Also subs+center would be useful. Ultimately, we want to see how well the final bass response measures, including the contribution of the mains (particularly the center), and how well the subs and mains blend at the crossover point. Looking at the individual pieces may reveal issues that disappear when all the pieces are playing together. So many things to look at!
I got my second array setup and spent a lot of time moving the 4 dual JBL boxes around at the sidewalls. I even went so far and stacked 2 boxes (4 JBL) on top of each other.

In the end I choose the configuration in which all of the 8 JBL reacted the best to Global EQ. I created a EQ list using REW and AutoEQ and imported it into Input 1 on the 2x4HD.


After that I loaded up Dirac and let it correct this EQ response. I will post pictures shortly.

Dirac on its own was not able to correct the JBLs as I would have liked, I think since they require a more brute force approach (but they take a beating).
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post #4368 of 4573 Old 06-12-2019, 03:03 AM
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Pictures.

First one: 8 JBL (4 one each side left and right in front of the MLP) raw

Second one: After EQ with REW loaded into MiniDSP

Third: After that Dirac live performed its magic.
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post #4369 of 4573 Old 06-12-2019, 05:11 AM
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Great results.
In the future, though, click on that little camera icon in the corner to grab a screenshot for posting.
But as long as the camera's out, how about a picture of your setup?
Michael
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post #4370 of 4573 Old 06-12-2019, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix94 View Post
Hey guys,
I tried running my mains through my 2x4 minidsp to add a HPF for them, but the result was a degradation in sound quality. I tried removing all filters and just sendt the signal straight through without any luck.

What I experience is that the sound somehow become veiled, like details and dynamics are missing.
Anyone here experienced something like this? And if so, did upgrading to say a 2x4HD or using the nanodigi to avoid the extra ad-da solve it?


Felix
Yes, and yes.
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post #4371 of 4573 Old 06-12-2019, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yes, and yes.
Did you do the 2x4 HD or the Nanodigi?

My 2.1: Minidsp2x4 HD,Hypex UCD400HxR,SI HT-18,HTM-10
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post #4372 of 4573 Old 06-14-2019, 11:21 AM
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I had the original 2x4 and ran into a lot of issues with output on the subs...it just didn't have enough "oomph". Put it away for a few years and then just recently when BEQ started to become a thing, I bought the 2x4 HD and it has worked flawlessly for me.
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post #4373 of 4573 Old 06-14-2019, 04:09 PM
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searching is proving elusive, so a basic question for the cognizant

Could a minidsp 2x4 with sub-plugin pushing bash 300 amps for THTLP's do substantially better bass EQ

than say using an NX3000d (currently wire-nutted onto the sub leads) ( sounds better with even minimalist EQ)
or
are BASHes just too unsophisticated / feature-less / limited to deliver due to built in HPF and other factors, i suppose . .

it's not about the amount of power given the efficiency of the BFM's

and placement will stay the same for A/B testing- there are no other placement options, ATT

and I do have REW so there is the option to load parameters into the berry

this is on a denon 5200 so there is the option of, after all that, running the Sub EQ.

right now "Fight of the Cosmic Hippo" is crunching it . .

of course a mindsp 2x4 would cost less than say a NX1000d which would be plenty of juice

but is the money better spent on getting that nx1000d and kicking the bash amps to the curb?

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post #4374 of 4573 Old 06-15-2019, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shyyour View Post
Hi Please i need some help in deciding between which mini dsp (2x4 balanced or 2x4 HD) is best for me. I recently stumbled into the DIY threads and after some research i decided to build dual marty cubes with ULM 18's. A minidsp was suggested to be used with my crowns amps. i have no measurement experience and i plan to buy a UMIK 1 mic with whichever minidsp is recommended. My main focus is to use the minidsp for just sub duty (gear below).

1. Denon X4300
2. Dual Marty cubes - to be powered by an XLS 1500 &1502
3. SVS PB12 NSD
4. 3 Bass shakers - powered by an XLS 1000

Reading through the thread the balanced was earlier suggested and then later on someone else suggested using the usb from the HD into REW to help with the Bass shakers which just confused me further. i know that the output from both devices should be sufficient to drive my crown amps which was my main worry but i don't know if i need or benefit from the HD features.

Cost wise there is a package deal for the HD & UMIK 1 which is just about $50 more than the balanced & UMIK 1, which isn't too bad considering it has all rca inputs which will be easier for me to setup.

PS: I have read @AustinJerry 's post on building balanced cables for connection to the Phoenix block so i believe i'll be able to figure out how to do the unbalanced and balanced connections if the balanced minidsp is the better choice.

thanks in advance
Please i still need help in deciding which minidsp is better for me

Thanks again

Theater:JVC RS440, Elite 120". 7.1.4:RTi8, CSi5, FXiA4, RTiA3, 620-RT(4) & SVS PB12-NSD. Denon X4300H, UPA-700, Crown XLS1502 & XLS1000(2). Sony UBP-X800, Panasonic DP-UB424, Shield & ATV 4K. Lounge:Vizio M70-D3, Benq HT1075, & Elite 106". 7.1.4:RTi12, CSi5, RTiA1, TSx110, MC60(4), & RBH I-12. Marantz AV7702, Crown XLS1500, XLS1000(2) & Amp 100v2(2). Samsung UBD-K8500, LG BP440, Shield & ATV
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post #4375 of 4573 Old 06-15-2019, 05:54 AM
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The HD can add more delay which you will probably need for the bass shakers if you plan to use a single subwoofer output from your Denon.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shyyour View Post
Please i still need help in deciding which minidsp is better for me

Thanks again
The primary differences are:

- The 2x4HD is unbalanced, while the balance 2x4 is, well, balanced (not a sound difference as much as allowing you to match the connection types you use elsewhere in your setup).

- The 2x4HD has a 2v output, while the balanced 2x4 has a switchable 2v and 4v output (2v should be enough for most setups).

- The balanced 2x4 has a maximum 7.5ms output delay setting, while the 2x4HD allows for a larger setting. The delay setting is used to time-align the subs, so whether you need more than 7.5ms depends on the relative distances of your subs to the MLP.

I don’t use bass shakers, so don’t know how they would be used with either 2x4.
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post #4377 of 4573 Old 06-15-2019, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
The HD can add more delay which you will probably need for the bass shakers if you plan to use a single subwoofer output from your Denon.
Thanks. Pls do you mind explaining how ill do this with the Bass Shakers?

i dont exactly know how ill integrate them with the minidsp.

thanks

Theater:JVC RS440, Elite 120". 7.1.4:RTi8, CSi5, FXiA4, RTiA3, 620-RT(4) & SVS PB12-NSD. Denon X4300H, UPA-700, Crown XLS1502 & XLS1000(2). Sony UBP-X800, Panasonic DP-UB424, Shield & ATV 4K. Lounge:Vizio M70-D3, Benq HT1075, & Elite 106". 7.1.4:RTi12, CSi5, RTiA1, TSx110, MC60(4), & RBH I-12. Marantz AV7702, Crown XLS1500, XLS1000(2) & Amp 100v2(2). Samsung UBD-K8500, LG BP440, Shield & ATV

Last edited by shyyour; 06-15-2019 at 07:04 AM.
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post #4378 of 4573 Old 06-15-2019, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The primary differences are:

- The 2x4HD is unbalanced, while the balance 2x4 is, well, balanced (not a sound difference as much as allowing you to match the connection types you use elsewhere in your setup).

- The 2x4HD has a 2v output, while the balanced 2x4 has a switchable 2v and 4v output (2v should be enough for most setups).

- The balanced 2x4 has a maximum 7.5ms output delay setting, while the 2x4HD allows for a larger setting. The delay setting is used to time-align the subs, so whether you need more than 7.5ms depends on the relative distances of your subs to the MLP.

I don’t use bass shakers, so don’t know how they would be used with either 2x4.

Thanks so much, ill just get the HD since all my connections are unbalanced and the additional cost is low.

I assume if the signal from the sub avr is unbalanced and output is balanced, the whole chain is still unbalanced right?

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post #4379 of 4573 Old 06-15-2019, 08:34 AM
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Thanks. Pls do you mind explaining how ill do this with the Bass Shakers?

i dont exactly know how ill integrate them with the minidsp.

thanks
You need to add delay in the MiniDSP for the output that connects to the amplifier of your bass shakers so that your seat doesn't start vibrating from the bass shakers before you hear the bass from your subwoofers.
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post #4380 of 4573 Old 06-15-2019, 09:38 AM
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You need to add delay in the MiniDSP for the output that connects to the amplifier of your bass shakers so that your seat doesn't start vibrating from the bass shakers before you hear the bass from your subwoofers.
Thank you. Is there a calculation for this like time aligning subs or just trial and error?

thanks again

Theater:JVC RS440, Elite 120". 7.1.4:RTi8, CSi5, FXiA4, RTiA3, 620-RT(4) & SVS PB12-NSD. Denon X4300H, UPA-700, Crown XLS1502 & XLS1000(2). Sony UBP-X800, Panasonic DP-UB424, Shield & ATV 4K. Lounge:Vizio M70-D3, Benq HT1075, & Elite 106". 7.1.4:RTi12, CSi5, RTiA1, TSx110, MC60(4), & RBH I-12. Marantz AV7702, Crown XLS1500, XLS1000(2) & Amp 100v2(2). Samsung UBD-K8500, LG BP440, Shield & ATV
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