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post #4861 of 4893 Old 02-03-2020, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
while re-measuring subs+mains after each adjustment.
If your primary listening is music, "mains" is left and right; if your preference is movies, center and subs.
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post #4862 of 4893 Old 02-03-2020, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
He is talking about the “sub distance tweak”. Delays for the mains in the AVR are set by room correction and should not be altered. What room correction doesn’t do is align the combined sub signal with the mains. A symptom of this misalignment is unevenness in the response in the neighborhood of the crossover. The typical approach to fix this is the “sub distance tweak”, in which the combined sub distance in the AVR (or in the MiniDSP) is adjusted up or down in small increments (1 ft at a time), while re-measuring subs+mains after each adjustment. This tweak can dramatically affect, or improve, the flatness of the response around the crossover. You have nothing to lose by trying this fix. Make sure you apply any distance tweak to all subs by the same amount.
Thank you @AustinJerry .
For now I have only one SUB, waiting for the speaker and cabinet delivery next week.

However, today I made a new Sub calibration with a different filter on the crossover and the dip seems gone. I will take your suggestion for the multi sub setup

Video: LG OLED 55 B7v | Calibration: i1D3 OEM, Calman Enthusiast.
Audio: Yamaha RX-V585, Polk s15e, Polk s10e, Polk s35ce, Atmos Dynavoice Magix FX-4, Sub DIY Dayton RSS210HF Ported | Calibration: MiniDSP, UMIK-1, REW
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post #4863 of 4893 Old 02-03-2020, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Thank you @AustinJerry .
For now I have only one SUB, waiting for the speaker and cabinet delivery next week.

However, today I made a new Sub calibration with a different filter on the crossover and the dip seems gone. I will take your suggestion for the multi sub setup
The sub distance applies to any number of subs, including a single sub. For me, it is always the last thing I check on after running a fresh calibration. Regardless of whether the dip has improved, you should always run the sub distance tweak to make sure the phase relationship between sub(s) and mains is optimized. As I said before, nothing to lose.
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post #4864 of 4893 Old 02-03-2020, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The sub distance applies to any number of subs, including a single sub. For me, it is always the last thing I check on after running a fresh calibration. Regardless of whether the dip has improved, you should always run the sub distance tweak to make sure the phase relationship between sub(s) and mains is optimized. As I said before, nothing to lose.


Yup, I use the delay in my minidsp (along with crossover slopes and freq’s) to match up the various subs and avoid phase cancellation issues. Then I use the avr sub delay to integrate the entire sub channel with the center.
So I recommend this process as well.

Chris
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post #4865 of 4893 Old 02-03-2020, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Yup, I use the delay in my minidsp (along with crossover slopes and freq’s) to match up the various subs and avoid phase cancellation issues. Then I use the avr sub delay to integrate the entire sub channel with the center.
So I recommend this process as well.

Chris
Exactly right, Chris.
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post #4866 of 4893 Old 02-03-2020, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Reading the posts again. While I have the ability to use multi eq app{ratbuddy has made it easier}, why wouldn't I use the mini it's simpler is it not.
Regarding Alan P suggestion to find 30-100hz test tones. Pink noise? Can do through rew then?
Rich
Yes, you can use the Generator in REW, but not pink noise as that covers a range of frequenceis. You want to use sine waves to isolate each frequency (30Hz/100Hz).
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post #4867 of 4893 Old 02-03-2020, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MrRobotoPlus View Post
Hi! I have a problem with my minidsp 2x4. When I engaged the crossover at 19Hz to limit the low bass output I get a huge dip at 100Hz when I measure sub+center. Why is that? REW eq file has been applied at the input eq.
"Crossover"? You want to use a Low Shelf filter for that.
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post #4868 of 4893 Old 02-14-2020, 09:59 PM
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Can someone explain the crossover attached ?


I assume it passes output below the 195hz xo point to output1 and above 195hz to output 2


I am asking because I just blew 3 drivers and it appears that the minidsp sent everything to both outputs.


Is there a way of checking what is actually loaded in the minidsp 2x4 or do you just have to load one to know what is loaded ?


Or am I doing something wrong - I have the minidsp powerd by USB signal from AVR going to input 1, low freq signal from output 1 and high freq from output 2. But when I set the AVR from small with 80hz xo to large I can feel and hear extra low freq being output from the midrange driver so I suspect the minidsp is not functioning properly. Is there a way to test the settings ?


Thanks
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post #4869 of 4893 Old 02-14-2020, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Can someone explain the crossover attached ?


I assume it passes output below the 195hz xo point to output1 and above 195hz to output 2


I am asking because I just blew 3 drivers and it appears that the minidsp sent everything to both outputs.


Is there a way of checking what is actually loaded in the minidsp 2x4 or do you just have to load one to know what is loaded ?


Or am I doing something wrong - I have the minidsp powerd by USB signal from AVR going to input 1, low freq signal from output 1 and high freq from output 2. But when I set the AVR from small with 80hz xo to large I can feel and hear extra low freq being output from the midrange driver so I suspect the minidsp is not functioning properly. Is there a way to test the settings ?


Thanks
Issues: No attachment. No mention of which model MiniDSP you are talking about. No description of what your objective is.
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post #4870 of 4893 Old 02-14-2020, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Issues: No attachment. No mention of which model MiniDSP you are talking about. No description of what your objective is.

Oh yeah I forgot to attach the pic.

But it doesn't matter because I figured out that I am an idiot.
I decided to remove my amp from my setup because I didn't think it was adding anything so I just pulled the speaker outputs and plugged them into my AVR - thereby totally bypassing the minidsps - oops
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post #4871 of 4893 Old 02-15-2020, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by niterida View Post
But it doesn't matter because I figured out that I am an idiot.
I'm fortunate enough to have a wife to remind me of that if I forget.

Michael
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post #4872 of 4893 Old 02-22-2020, 08:46 PM
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Update on my system reset after recapping speakers. Life got in the way.
So I spent 3 hours going from scratch today.
Have my house curve in place and loving the sound. Redid the 4 sub integration. Hasn't changed but at least I know my room with the current sub placement.
Couple of questions. I have quite a bit of flexibility in placement with regards to my front l/r speakers and was thinking of playing with placement to flatten response. Good idea?
Second. I know that my subs should not exceed - 4.5 trim at reference in order to stay within the max output voltage of mini.
Correct.
If that is the case. I ran my audessey sweep with the subs being set at +4.0 by audessey. This was after gain matching each sub to 92db, resulting in a mlp of 75db before audessey.

Were do I go now. Should I rerun audessey after gain matching at a higher dB to end up close to the desired - 4.5?

If it matters system is rarely run above
-10db mv. Well maybe during headbanging dance Fridays with the wife, but not much more.
Rich
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post #4873 of 4893 Old 02-22-2020, 09:29 PM
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More questions. My house curve starts at 125 Hz +1db until 80hz then climbs 1b until 30hz ending at +7db. Should I add crossover filters as well

Last edited by Rich 63; 02-22-2020 at 09:34 PM.
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post #4874 of 4893 Old 02-22-2020, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Update on my system reset after recapping speakers. Life got in the way.
So I spent 3 hours going from scratch today.
Have my house curve in place and loving the sound. Redid the 4 sub integration. Hasn't changed but at least I know my room with the current sub placement.
Couple of questions. I have quite a bit of flexibility in placement with regards to my front l/r speakers and was thinking of playing with placement to flatten response. Good idea?
Second. I know that my subs should not exceed - 4.5 trim at reference in order to stay within the max output voltage of mini.
Correct.
If that is the case. I ran my audessey sweep with the subs being set at +4.0 by audessey. This was after gain matching each sub to 92db, resulting in a mlp of 75db before audessey.

Were do I go now. Should I rerun audessey after gain matching at a higher dB to end up close to the desired - 4.5?

If it matters system is rarely run above
-10db mv. Well maybe during headbanging dance Fridays with the wife, but not much more.
Rich
Although you are not specific, I assume you have the unbalanced 2x4 with input voltage of .9v, correct? The newer models have a switchable .9v and 2.0v input. You say an optimal trim is -4.5dB, so you actually measured the output voltage from the AVR and -4.5dB resulted in a .9v signal (as described in the 2x4 guide linked in my sig)? If yes to these questions, then you need to re-do the sub gain matching by increasing each sub's gain. Then set the AVR sub channel trim to -4.5 and re-measure the combined sub output at the MLP. If it is now 75dB (or whatever level you want), then you are done. No need to re-run Audyssey, because the Audyssey filters are unaffected by a change in the sub channel trim.
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post #4875 of 4893 Old 02-22-2020, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Update on my system reset after recapping speakers. Life got in the way.
So I spent 3 hours going from scratch today.
Have my house curve in place and loving the sound. Redid the 4 sub integration. Hasn't changed but at least I know my room with the current sub placement.
Couple of questions. I have quite a bit of flexibility in placement with regards to my front l/r speakers and was thinking of playing with placement to flatten response. Good idea?
Second. I know that my subs should not exceed - 4.5 trim at reference in order to stay within the max output voltage of mini.
Correct.
If that is the case. I ran my audessey sweep with the subs being set at +4.0 by audessey. This was after gain matching each sub to 92db, resulting in a mlp of 75db before audessey.

Were do I go now. Should I rerun audessey after gain matching at a higher dB to end up close to the desired - 4.5?

If it matters system is rarely run above
-10db mv. Well maybe during headbanging dance Fridays with the wife, but not much more.
Rich
Although you are not specific, I assume you have the unbalanced 2x4 with input voltage of .9v, correct? The newer models have a switchable .9v and 2.0v input. You say an optimal trim is -4.5dB, so you actually measured the output voltage from the AVR and -4.5dB resulted in a .9v signal (as described in the 2x4 guide linked in my sig)? If yes to these questions, then you need to re-do the sub gain matching by increasing each sub's gain. Then set the AVR sub channel trim to -4.5 and re-measure the combined sub output at the MLP. If it is now 75dB (or whatever level you want), then you are done. No need to re-run Audyssey, because the Audyssey filters are unaffected by a change in the sub channel trim.
Yes to all your questions. So I could just set at
-4.5 then gain match each until at 75db @MLP ?
Thanks Jerry.
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post #4876 of 4893 Old 02-22-2020, 10:11 PM
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Yes to all your questions. So I could just set at
-4.5 then gain match each until at 75db @MLP ?
Thanks Jerry.
Yes, or even higher than 75dB, if you prefer stronger bass.
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post #4877 of 4893 Old 02-23-2020, 09:55 AM
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[QUOTE=AustinJerry;59284100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Yes to all your questions. So I could just set at
-4.5 then gain match each until at 75db @MLP ?
Thanks Jerry.
Yes, or even higher than 75dB, if you prefer stronger bass.[/QUOTE


I've listened most of last night. Different sources true hd, dtsx, atmos, from blue ray, then Netflix dd+/atmos. I had the house curve jacked for a while. Sounded incredible. Problem is I'm semi detached. Gotta respect my neighbours of 15 years. All to say 75db is fine.

Plus I like the idea that I can get my subs past their 1/4 mark in output given your suggestion. The amps can start playing closer to optimum.
What about crossover Jerry ? Since my 7db boost at 30 continues through @7db,should I shelf that at my subs low end of 25hz with say a 48hz bw?
Regards
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post #4878 of 4893 Old 02-23-2020, 02:31 PM
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[quote=Rich 63;59285496]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Yes, or even higher than 75dB, if you prefer stronger bass.[/QUOTE


I've listened most of last night. Different sources true hd, dtsx, atmos, from blue ray, then Netflix dd+/atmos. I had the house curve jacked for a while. Sounded incredible. Problem is I'm semi detached. Gotta respect my neighbours of 15 years. All to say 75db is fine.

Plus I like the idea that I can get my subs past their 1/4 mark in output given your suggestion. The amps can start playing closer to optimum.
What about crossover Jerry ? Since my 7db boost at 30 continues through @7db,should I shelf that at my subs low end of 25hz with say a 48hz bw?
Regards
I really don’t have a recommendation. I have no other crossover other than a 100hz crossover in my processor. What are you trying to accomplish?
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post #4879 of 4893 Old 02-23-2020, 03:16 PM
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Simply trying to omit any signal below my subs capabilities to reproduce. Would this not aid the subs performance. My curve is at +7db @25hz (my subs limit) but continues through to 10hz . My thinking was adding what I think is called a knee curve in the crossover to cut that signal right at 25hz.
Does this make sense?
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post #4880 of 4893 Old 02-23-2020, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Simply trying to omit any signal below my subs capabilities to reproduce. Would this not aid the subs performance. My curve is at +7db @25hz (my subs limit) but continues through to 10hz . My thinking was adding what I think is called a knee curve in the crossover to cut that signal right at 25hz.
Does this make sense?
Sounds like it should work, but I have never worried about damaging my subs with signals that are too low.
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post #4881 of 4893 Old 02-24-2020, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Simply trying to omit any signal below my subs capabilities to reproduce. Would this not aid the subs performance. My curve is at +7db @25hz (my subs limit) but continues through to 10hz . My thinking was adding what I think is called a knee curve in the crossover to cut that signal right at 25hz.
Does this make sense?
Sounds like it should work, but I have never worried about damaging my subs with signals that are too low.
I'm not worried about damage but rather that the amp is still dealing with the lower frequencies weather it's heard or not so my thinking is let it deal with only what it does well. I'm going to try doing this over the weekend and measure to see if it changes anything.
Will report back on what if anything I find. One would assume the amp curcuit has a hard cutoff anyway in order to protect it so this might be redundant.
Rich
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post #4882 of 4893 Old 02-24-2020, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Simply trying to omit any signal below my subs capabilities to reproduce. Would this not aid the subs performance. My curve is at +7db @25hz (my subs limit) but continues through to 10hz . My thinking was adding what I think is called a knee curve in the crossover to cut that signal right at 25hz.
Does this make sense?
What you are talking about is a Low Shelf filter.

Does your actual in-room frequency response drop off at 25Hz? I ask because you should get usable output a bit below the subwoofers specs due to room gain. Regardless, a low shelf is probably not needed...frequencies that the sub cannot reproduce it just won't reproduce.
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post #4883 of 4893 Old 02-24-2020, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Simply trying to omit any signal below my subs capabilities to reproduce. Would this not aid the subs performance. My curve is at +7db @25hz (my subs limit) but continues through to 10hz . My thinking was adding what I think is called a knee curve in the crossover to cut that signal right at 25hz.
Does this make sense?
ok

What you are talking about is a Low Shelf filter.

Does your actual in-room frequency response drop off at 25Hz? I ask because you should get usable output a bit below the subwoofers specs due to room gain. Regardless, a low shelf is probably not needed...frequencies that the sub cannot reproduce it just won't reproduce. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

Ok. Makes sense. If I remember correctly down below 20hz there was sound but I can't remember at what dB that drop-off was significant. In fact when summing my subs the test tones were audible even below 20. I'm running 4 subs so I'm making the most of room gain.
As for the subs not reproducing frequencies below 25hz. Are you saying that the circuitry in the subs removes any low frequency below in my case 25hz then sends all frequencies 25hz and above to the amp to reproduce. This would make sense, making my endeavour redundant.
Rich
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post #4884 of 4893 Old 02-24-2020, 01:20 PM
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Ok. Makes sense. If I remember correctly down below 20hz there was sound but I can't remember at what dB that drop-off was significant. In fact when summing my subs the test tones were audible even below 20. I'm running 4 subs so I'm making the most of room gain.
As for the subs not reproducing frequencies below 25hz. Are you saying that the circuitry in the subs removes any low frequency below in my case 25hz then sends all frequencies 25hz and above to the amp to reproduce. This would make sense, making my endeavour redundant.
Rich
One interesting exercise would be to measure your subs near-field. Place the mic tip about an inch from the center of the dust cap and measure 10-300Hz. These measurements would reveal two things: first of all, it will show whether the lack of response below 25Hz is the sub's natural response characteristics, or the effect of the room and placement. Second, it will verify that all four subs are performing identically. A measurement of my subs nearfield shows how such a measurement could look.
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post #4885 of 4893 Old 02-24-2020, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
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Ok. Makes sense. If I remember correctly down below 20hz there was sound but I can't remember at what dB that drop-off was significant. In fact when summing my subs the test tones were audible even below 20. I'm running 4 subs so I'm making the most of room gain.
As for the subs not reproducing frequencies below 25hz. Are you saying that the circuitry in the subs removes any low frequency below in my case 25hz then sends all frequencies 25hz and above to the amp to reproduce. This would make sense, making my endeavour redundant.
Rich
One interesting exercise would be to measure your subs near-field. Place the mic tip about an inch from the center of the dust cap and measure 10-300Hz. These measurements would reveal two things: first of all, it will show whether the lack of response below 25Hz is the sub's natural response characteristics, or the effect of the room and placement. Second, it will verify that all four subs are performing identically. A measurement of my subs nearfield shows how such a measurement could look.
Great idea Jerry. Weekend work. Or maybe tonight after wife goes to bed if I'm inclined.
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post #4886 of 4893 Old 02-24-2020, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Ok. Makes sense. If I remember correctly down below 20hz there was sound but I can't remember at what dB that drop-off was significant. In fact when summing my subs the test tones were audible even below 20. I'm running 4 subs so I'm making the most of room gain.
As for the subs not reproducing frequencies below 25hz. Are you saying that the circuitry in the subs removes any low frequency below in my case 25hz then sends all frequencies 25hz and above to the amp to reproduce. This would make sense, making my endeavour redundant.
Rich
Which subs do you own?
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post #4887 of 4893 Old 02-24-2020, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Ok. Makes sense. If I remember correctly down below 20hz there was sound but I can't remember at what dB that drop-off was significant. In fact when summing my subs the test tones were audible even below 20. I'm running 4 subs so I'm making the most of room gain.
As for the subs not reproducing frequencies below 25hz. Are you saying that the circuitry in the subs removes any low frequency below in my case 25hz then sends all frequencies 25hz and above to the amp to reproduce. This would make sense, making my endeavour redundant.
Rich
Which subs do you own?
At this time 2 velodyne CT 12s and 2 velo dsl-r 10s. Room is basement with cinder block walls clad in 1/2" pine tongue n grove. Heavy carpet. 22x14x7 room with one hallway off of the space. Seating is 1/3 off back wall. Running 5.4.2.
Does this help?
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post #4888 of 4893 Old 02-24-2020, 07:29 PM
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Additional info. Semi detached bungalow. 1 inner wall insulated with roxal. 3 outer walls pink from previous owner. Drop ceiling is almost completely covered above with roxal as well.
Played with basstraps but the "waf" was not. Plus they were too obtrusive and it felt like monoliths in the room
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post #4889 of 4893 Old Yesterday, 01:26 PM
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Wow lot of information lol, ive been doing DIY subs for years and to cheap to buy a miniDSP. Ordering one this Friday! finally I will have uniform bass. Ill be using dual 3000DSP with my Denon 4400H, and im ordering the HD model.



I know it has 0.9 or 2.0V options. What would be the better option..?
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post #4890 of 4893 Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
Wow lot of information lol, ive been doing DIY subs for years and to cheap to buy a miniDSP. Ordering one this Friday! finally I will have uniform bass. Ill be using dual 3000DSP with my Denon 4400H, and im ordering the HD model.

I know it has 0.9 or 2.0V options. What would be the better option..?

That is the input, not output sensitivity. Whichever works with your Denon (hey, I've the same). I'd choose the 2V version, so you don't run into the issue of clipping the input of the MiniDSP.
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LG OLED55C6P calibrated
Denon X4400H 5.2.4
Denovo HTM-10
HSU Research surrounds
2x18" Dayton Ultimax sealed < Pro-LITE 7.5 amp < MiniDSP 2x4 HD
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