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post #4921 of 4949 Old 03-20-2020, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
If i do is it this > 2x4 HD1 ?

Yes, that is the plugin for the 2x4 HD.
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post #4922 of 4949 Old 03-20-2020, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
Yes, that is the plugin for the 2x4 HD.
OK, since I don’t have the 2x4HD, I was not familiar with the name of the plug-in. According to the web site, the plug-in is included with the purchase, so no additional expense.
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post #4923 of 4949 Old 03-20-2020, 01:23 PM
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Plug-ins are included with the purchase from the company, probably not with the used items he got "cheap."
Of course, since they're the same model, the one plug-in should work for as many as he has.
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post #4924 of 4949 Old 03-20-2020, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Plug-ins are included with the purchase from the company, probably not with the used items he got "cheap."
Of course, since they're the same model, the one plug-in should work for as many as he has.
Michael
I think you are confusing the last two posters. Balbolito is not the person who purchased three used 2x4's--that was Niterida I believe Balbolito will be purchasing a new one.
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post #4925 of 4949 Old 03-20-2020, 03:41 PM
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As you know by now, I'm easily confused.

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post #4926 of 4949 Old 03-20-2020, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I think you are confusing the last two posters. Balbolito is not the person who purchased three used 2x4's--that was Niterida I believe Balbolito will be purchasing a new one.
True i just purchased a new 2x4 HD, UMIK-1 , some RCA's, boom mic stand and a 50ft USB 2.0 active extension cable (for the mic cable) to get started!

Now the hard part is left, waiting a full week for everything to arrive!



Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
OK, since I don’t have the 2x4HD, I was not familiar with the name of the plug-in. According to the web site, the plug-in is included with the purchase, so no additional expense.
Yes i didn't know the name myself till a few hours ago when i checked the website. And I saw in a few pics like a coupon/code that is included with the miniDSP that has a free version of it included. Thanks

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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
Yes, that is the plugin for the 2x4 HD.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Processors Marantz AV8805 & miniDSP 2x4 HD Amps Crown DCI/N x2 CT8150 x1 Speakers JBL PRO M2 x3 708i x4 328c x6 Subs SVS SB16 x4 Screen SI 160 Slate AT 1.2 Projector Epson TW5600 Media Steiger Dynamics Ikon Cables Wireworld,Hosa & Belden
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post #4927 of 4949 Old 03-20-2020, 06:53 PM
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MiniDSP

Quote:
Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Anybody have any ideas on how to mount the 2x4 kit ? I bought 3 of them 2nd hand (but brand new) cos they were cheap, but now I need to find a suitable enclosure (individually or all together) and can't find anything

I have a thread out there about my custom enclosure build with part numbers. Look there up from the bottom for the PDF since photobucket sanitized the internet .

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussi...omment_2459606


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post #4928 of 4949 Old 03-21-2020, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
I have a thread out there about my custom enclosure build with part numbers. Look there up from the bottom for the PDF since photobucket sanitized the internet .

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussi...omment_2459606


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Thanks for that.

I think I have a cheap ($6) solution though - found an electrical box that might be the perfect size to fit all 3 stacked on top of each other - might get away with just drilling some holes for the RCA, USB and power connections. If the size is right the RCA plugs will hold the units in place with no need to actually mount them to anything else.

Standby........
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post #4929 of 4949 Old 03-25-2020, 03:44 PM
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Anyone else looks output on a channel if you invert it? Output drops massive
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post #4930 of 4949 Old 03-25-2020, 04:41 PM
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Because you're reversing the polarity.
That means it's working properly.
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post #4931 of 4949 Old 03-25-2020, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
Anyone else looks output on a channel if you invert it? Output drops massive
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Because you're reversing the polarity.
That means it's working properly.
Not necessarily. For example, if you are playing a tone through a single speaker, reversing polarity will have no effect on sound output. However, if you are playing a tone through two speakers at the same time, especially subs, and you reverse the polarity of one of them, then cancellation can significantly reduce output. So, I don’t think Remy provided enough information for us to understand his situation well enough to provide an answer.
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post #4932 of 4949 Old 03-31-2020, 03:37 PM
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Quick question. I have 4 subs and the way I aligned them is by aligning the front two first. Then I aligned the back two and then aligned the two pairs. Is this an ok approach or should I have added one sub at at time as opposed to aligning the pairs?

Marantz SR7011 | Marantz MM7025 | Outlaw 5000 | Klipsch RP 8000 | Klipsch RP 504C | Klipsch RP 502S | Klipsch RP 5000 | Klipsch CDT 5650 | Polk V60 | Klipsch SPL 120 (2)|
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post #4933 of 4949 Old 03-31-2020, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwander View Post
Quick question. I have 4 subs and the way I aligned them is by aligning the front two first. Then I aligned the back two and then aligned the two pairs. Is this an ok approach or should I have added one sub at at time as opposed to aligning the pairs?
There is no “right” answer. For example, in my setup my two front subs are 12ft from the MLP, and my two back subs are 4ft from the MLP. I time-aligned the front pair to the rear pair and measured the results. I then removed the time alignment delays and re-measured. The non-time aligned setup measured better. Same goes for polarity. Test for polarity. Measure with same polarity, and then with reversed polarity, and keep the setup that measures best. Finding the best configuration for a four-sub setup involves testing a number of options, including placement, gain matching, time alignment and polarity. Each option must be measured, so be prepared for spending a considerable amount of time.

The 2x4 setup guide linked in my sig describes my approach and findings.
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post #4934 of 4949 Old 03-31-2020, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
There is no “right” answer. For example, in my setup my two front subs are 12ft from the MLP, and my two back subs are 4ft from the MLP. I time-aligned the front pair to the rear pair and measured the results. I then removed the time alignment delays and re-measured. The non-time aligned setup measured better. Same goes for polarity. Test for polarity. Measure with same polarity, and then with reversed polarity, and keep the setup that measures best. Finding the best configuration for a four-sub setup involves testing a number of options, including placement, gain matching, time alignment and polarity. Each option must be measured, so be prepared for spending a considerable amount of time.

The 2x4 setup guide linked in my sig describes my approach and findings.
Thanks. What you described is mostly what I did. Tried a variety of different delays with and without polarity reversed. I did ok but I think there’s better results to be had. Only thing I always seems to screw up and I can’t figure out why is the gain matching. Audyssey always finds it on the low side and sets my trim over 0. It landed at +4 this time which is no good. Not sure why, but I guess I can just try for 80 dB instead of 75 dB next time.

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post #4935 of 4949 Old 03-31-2020, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dwander View Post
Thanks. What you described is mostly what I did. Tried a variety of different delays with and without polarity reversed. I did ok but I think there’s better results to be had. Only thing I always seems to screw up and I can’t figure out why is the gain matching. Audyssey always finds it on the low side and sets my trim over 0. It landed at +4 this time which is no good. Not sure why, but I guess I can just try for 80 dB instead of 75 dB next time.
Gain matching means all the subs play at the same level when measured with the mic immediately in front of the dust cap. Gain matching does not specify the output level. Getting the combined output level for automated room correction is a trial and error process. For example, each of my subs measures 95dB nearfield. The combined level, measured at the MLP, is close to 75dB, which is the appropriate input level for my Dirac Live room correction. But I had to experiment several times before settling on the 95dB level. In your case, it would seem that you have gain matched at a slightly low level, so try it again with a higher level.
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post #4936 of 4949 Old 03-31-2020, 04:51 PM
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[QUOTE=AustinJerry;59434880]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwander View Post
Thanks. What you described is mostly what I did. Tried a variety of different delays with and without polarity reversed. I did ok but I think there’️s better results to be had. Only thing I always seems to screw up and I can’️t figure out why is the gain matching. Audyssey always finds it on the low side and sets my trim over 0. It landed at +4 this time which is no good. Not sure why, but I guess I can just try for 80 dB instead of 75 dB next time.
Gain matching means all the subs play at the same level when measured with the mic immediately in front of the dust cap. Gain matching does not specify the output level. Getting the combined output level for automated room correction is a trial and error process. For example, each of my subs measures 95dB nearfield. The combined level, measured at the MLP, is close to 75dB, which is the appropriate input level for my Dirac Live room correction. But I had to experiment several times before settling on the 95dB level. In your case, it would seem that you have gain matched at a slightly low level, so try it again with a higher level.[/QUOTE

Yea, mine was around 88-89db nearfield and that would yield 75db at the MLP with audyssey off and the trim at 0. Then after audyssey it sets the trim at +4 and it measures 74-75db at the MLP. So it’s confused me but I guess it doesn’t matter. Just need to gain match to higher level next time.

Marantz SR7011 | Marantz MM7025 | Outlaw 5000 | Klipsch RP 8000 | Klipsch RP 504C | Klipsch RP 502S | Klipsch RP 5000 | Klipsch CDT 5650 | Polk V60 | Klipsch SPL 120 (2)|
HSU VTF3 MK5 (2) | Crown XLS 1002 | Buttkicker LFE Mini (4) | Eaton 5PX 1500|

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I have a question for the miniDSP experts out there about the OpenDRC-DA8. I've read lots of good things about the 2x4HD unit however, I need at least 8 channels. I'd prefer not to buy two of the 2x4HD's. Does the OpenDRC-DA8 work in a similar manner to the well-liked 2x4HD?

I have 10 subs in my garage which are grouped into 6 different channels. I followed a method nearly identical to what @AustinJerry described to figure out the time alignment and phasing for these 6 channels. I'm using a Behringer DCX2496, but I'd like to get away from it. This is why I'm looking for an 8 channel device (6 sub channels plus 2 mains). Is the OpenDRC-DA8 a good option here?

Thank you!

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post #4938 of 4949 Old 03-31-2020, 05:49 PM
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Ten subs?

I am not familiar with the OpenDRC-DA8 or it’s capabilities.
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post #4939 of 4949 Old 03-31-2020, 10:38 PM
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Only thing I always seems to screw up and I can’t figure out why is the gain matching.

Why would you throw away a degree of freedom with that obsolete “gain matching?”

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post #4940 of 4949 Old 03-31-2020, 11:06 PM
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Why would you throw away a degree of freedom with that obsolete “gain matching?”
For the case of identical subs and amps, gain matching maximizes acoustical output (assuming delays have been adjusted for best approximation to acoustical in-phase behavior over multiple seats). That's a valid concern. Not everyone wishes to, say, attenuate the output of some subs in order to optimize some different criterion, such as seat-to-seat variation of frequency response.
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post #4941 of 4949 Old 04-01-2020, 04:48 AM
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Since a few are talking about gain matching, i have four identical subs in a rectangle sealed and treated room (SVS SB16) a front pair (each 14.5ft to the MLP) and a rear pair (each 5ft to the MLP) do i need to worry about gain matching them before i run REW and Minidsp?

Thanks

Processors Marantz AV8805 & miniDSP 2x4 HD Amps Crown DCI/N x2 CT8150 x1 Speakers JBL PRO M2 x3 708i x4 328c x6 Subs SVS SB16 x4 Screen SI 160 Slate AT 1.2 Projector Epson TW5600 Media Steiger Dynamics Ikon Cables Wireworld,Hosa & Belden

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post #4942 of 4949 Old 04-01-2020, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
Since a few are talking about gain matching, i have four identical subs in a rectangle sealed and treated room (SVS SB16) a front pair (each 14.5ft to the MLP) and a rear pair (each 5ft to the MLP) do i need to worry about gain matching them before i run REW and Minidsp?

Thanks
I have a similar four-sub array, although my room is not a sealed rectangle. I have always gain-matched, rather than level-matched. My belief is that each sub should make the same contribution to the overall combined sub response. There are those who may not subscribe to this approach.

One interesting thing that I have observed is that a sub’s output level can have a significant effect on the smoothness of the combined sub response. For example, measure each of the four subs by itself. Based on the sub’s position in the room, the four response measurements can be significantly different. One sub, for example, might have a dip at 50Hz, while a second sub may have a peak at the same frequency. When you combine the two, their interaction will affect the 50Hz response, and in a perfect scenario, the response at 50Hz will be flat. But the result of this interaction will depend on the output levels of the two subs. You can actually vary the output levels, remeasure the combined response, and see that the effect on the 50Hz problem will vary as well. This suggests that one might want to experiment with output levels when searching for the best sub response. Unfortunately, this can be a long and tedious process. While I am not sure Andy’s MSO algorithm experiments with sub output levels, the benefit of approaches like MSO is to examine multiple options without all the manual work.

In my setup, I have been fortunate to achieve a remarkably flat sub response with all four subs playing at the same level (gain matched).
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post #4943 of 4949 Old 04-01-2020, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I have a similar four-sub array, although my room is not a sealed rectangle. I have always gain-matched, rather than level-matched. My belief is that each sub should make the same contribution to the overall combined sub response. There are those who may not subscribe to this approach.

One interesting thing that I have observed is that a sub’s output level can have a significant effect on the smoothness of the combined sub response. For example, measure each of the four subs by itself. Based on the sub’s position in the room, the four response measurements can be significantly different. One sub, for example, might have a dip at 50Hz, while a second sub may have a peak at the same frequency. When you combine the two, their interaction will affect the 50Hz response, and in a perfect scenario, the response at 50Hz will be flat. But the result of this interaction will depend on the output levels of the two subs. You can actually vary the output levels, remeasure the combined response, and see that the effect on the 50Hz problem will vary as well. This suggests that one might want to experiment with output levels when searching for the best sub response. Unfortunately, this can be a long and tedious process. While I am not sure Andy’s MSO algorithm experiments with sub output levels, the benefit of approaches like MSO is to examine multiple options without all the manual work.

In my setup, I have been fortunate to achieve a remarkably flat sub response with all four subs playing at the same level (gain matched).
Sounds good, the only issue for me is that the front two are behind an AT screen and i would need some time to get them out of there to gain match. What i understood is that i have to mark a spot somewhere in my room and put each one of the four there and make sure each has the same SPL reading. like for example 80db or so. then put them back in their original locations. not sure if there is another way to do it , since each would have it's own response and output depending on that particular position in my room.

Another question, just before running room correction (Audyssey in my case) the first step it would ask you to level your subs (in the green range) so it can continue running all 8 measurements. i can use the minidsp and adjust each from the output correct?

Processors Marantz AV8805 & miniDSP 2x4 HD Amps Crown DCI/N x2 CT8150 x1 Speakers JBL PRO M2 x3 708i x4 328c x6 Subs SVS SB16 x4 Screen SI 160 Slate AT 1.2 Projector Epson TW5600 Media Steiger Dynamics Ikon Cables Wireworld,Hosa & Belden

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Sounds good, the only issue for me is that the front two are behind an AT screen and i would need some time to get them out of there to gain match. What i understood is that i have to mark a spot somewhere in my room and put each one of the four there and make sure each has the same SPL reading. like for example 80db or so. then put them back in their original locations. not sure if there is another way to do it , since each would have it's own response and output depending on that particular position in my room.

Another question, just before running room correction (Audyssey in my case) the first step it would ask you to level your subs (in the green range) so it can continue running all 8 measurements. i can use the minidsp and adjust each from the output correct?
First of all, subs can be gain-matched by placing the mic immediately in front of the dust cap, about an inch away. This placement minimizes room effects on the sub’s response. There is no real need to move the subs to the center of the room. Assuming you can get to the subs in order to place the mic properly, you should be good.

After you gain-match, start the Audyssey and proceed to the step where the combined sub level is measured. If the level is significantly off, you have several choices: either re-run the gain-marching, setting each sub’s output at a higher or lower level, and trying Audyssey again. Or, you can use the level control on the input side of the MiniDSP to lower the combined sub output. Remember, you don’t want to disturb the gain-matching, so using the input level control adjusts each sub’s output by the same amount. Unfortunately, this second approach only works if Audyssey reports a combined sub level that is too high, since I assume that the input level on the MiniDSP is set to zero.
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post #4945 of 4949 Old 04-01-2020, 12:11 PM
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First of all, subs can be gain-matched by placing the mic immediately in front of the dust cap, about an inch away. This placement minimizes room effects on the sub’s response. There is no real need to move the subs to the center of the room. Assuming you can get to the subs in order to place the mic properly, you should be good.

After you gain-match, start the Audyssey and proceed to the step where the combined sub level is measured. If the level is significantly off, you have several choices: either re-run the gain-marching, setting each sub’s output at a higher or lower level, and trying Audyssey again. Or, you can use the level control on the input side of the MiniDSP to lower the combined sub output. Remember, you don’t want to disturb the gain-matching, so using the input level control adjusts each sub’s output by the same amount. Unfortunately, this second approach only works if Audyssey reports a combined sub level that is too high, since I assume that the input level on the MiniDSP is set to zero.
I can gain match the sub at its position, with my SPL meter no issues. i have enough space between the back of my screen and subs for my front pair. thing is if i understand this correctly, after gain matching my four subs, Minidsp/REW will eventually change the levels of each to correct the response/delay/phase if required and many other things right? so what's really the point of gain matching in this scenario.

Just saw the detailed steps in your Minidsp guide P4. thank you

Processors Marantz AV8805 & miniDSP 2x4 HD Amps Crown DCI/N x2 CT8150 x1 Speakers JBL PRO M2 x3 708i x4 328c x6 Subs SVS SB16 x4 Screen SI 160 Slate AT 1.2 Projector Epson TW5600 Media Steiger Dynamics Ikon Cables Wireworld,Hosa & Belden
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post #4946 of 4949 Old 04-01-2020, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
I can gain match the sub at its position, with my SPL meter no issues. i have enough space between the back of my screen and subs for my front pair. thing is if i understand this correctly, after gain matching my four subs, Minidsp/REW will eventually change the levels of each to correct the response/delay/phase if required and many other things right? so what's really the point of gain matching in this scenario.

Just saw the detailed steps in your Minidsp guide P4. thank you
Gain matching sets the output of each sub to be the same. Adjusting the output in the MiniDSP adjusts the combined sub level, and does not alter the sub-to-sub gain matching.
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post #4947 of 4949 Old 04-01-2020, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Gain matching sets the output of each sub to be the same. Adjusting the output in the MiniDSP adjusts the combined sub level, and does not alter the sub-to-sub gain matching.
Got it! thx

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post #4948 of 4949 Old Yesterday, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by dasa2131 View Post
I have 10 subs in my garage which are grouped into 6 different channels. I followed a method nearly identical to what @AustinJerry described to figure out the time alignment and phasing for these 6 channels. I'm using a Behringer DCX2496, but I'd like to get away from it. This is why I'm looking for an 8 channel device (6 sub channels plus 2 mains). Is the OpenDRC-DA8 a good option here?
I use the rack mounted 4x10. It can control up to 8 subs.


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post #4949 of 4949 Old Yesterday, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Greer View Post
I use the rack mounted 4x10. It can control up to 8 subs.


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@Rob Greer

Thanks for the response - how do you like your 4X10? Are you using it for multiple unique sub channels?

Stay healthy!

Dave
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