Automatically Powering on Pro Amps via Relay (guide w/ pics) - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 508 Old 12-21-2017, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
... I plan to use Alexa to power on a smart plug, connect a multi outlet surge protector to the smart plug and connect a 12v power supply to it which would then be wired to trigger the relay....would that work?

That is basically what I am doing without Alexa. AVR plugged into the control outlet on a smart power strip. When AVR turns on, the rest of the power strip outlets are turned on. I have a 12V wall-wart plugged into one of these slave outlets. The 12V wall-wart controls a 2 pole relay for my 2 sub amps on 2 different circuits.


So to answer your question, yes, it would absolutely work.
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post #452 of 508 Old 12-21-2017, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kuester View Post
That is basically what I am doing without Alexa. AVR plugged into the control outlet on a smart power strip. When AVR turns on, the rest of the power strip outlets are turned on. I have a 12V wall-wart plugged into one of these slave outlets. The 12V wall-wart controls a 2 pole relay for my 2 sub amps on 2 different circuits.


So to answer your question, yes, it would absolutely work.
That is great! Are you using a Normally Open DPST? Which one?
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post #453 of 508 Old 12-21-2017, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
That is great! Are you using a Normally Open DPST? Which one?

Yep. Normally open DPST. I don't know the model number. It was one I had laying around that had acceptable voltage and current ratings.


It is an ice cube style relay that I just enclosed in a plastic electrical box in my equipment closet.

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post #454 of 508 Old 12-21-2017, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kuester View Post
Yep. Normally open DPST. I don't know the model number. It was one I had laying around that had acceptable voltage and current ratings.


It is an ice cube style relay that I just enclosed in a plastic electrical box in my equipment closet.
How are you dissipating heat from the relay?
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post #455 of 508 Old 12-21-2017, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
How are you dissipating heat from the relay?
The box is not air tight, and there is not enough heat from the relay to cause concern.

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post #456 of 508 Old 12-21-2017, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Are you using a splitter on each trigger output? In regards to how Alexa would be integrated in my scenario, basically Alexa would be told to turn on a smart plug, which would have a surge protector connected to it. A 12v dc adapter would connect to the surge protector, sending the trigger to the relay. I'd be assured of not being current limited using a 12v dc adapter to trigger the relays. I guess I could also use a master/slave surge protector to power on the 12v dc adapter when my avr is powered on.
Actually, not doing that anymore. I have 4 relay outs. I was running 5 amps at one point, so one had a splitter powering a solid state relay along with the omron relay.
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post #457 of 508 Old 04-21-2018, 08:49 AM
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Has anyone used the sparkfun IoT relay? 12A continuous, 30/40A peak power seems adequate for most amps. I'm planning on 1 per EP4000. And it's cheaper than just the Omron relay plus no other parts or wiring. And only a 0.2mA trigger.

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post #458 of 508 Old 04-21-2018, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bradthebold88 View Post
Has anyone used the sparkfun IoT relay? 12A continuous, 30/40A peak power seems adequate for most amps. I'm planning on 1 per EP4000. And it's cheaper than just the Omron relay plus no other parts or wiring. And only a 0.2mA trigger.
With an amp that can pull 30A RMS of current, I wouldn't mess around with that. There are plenty of relays out there you can use.

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post #459 of 508 Old 04-21-2018, 05:10 PM
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Ok. Is there a lower mA triggered one for my 150mA receiver? Or I'll probably just do the one listed in the 1st post and run two off a 12V 1A wall wart power adapter I have with a smart strip.

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post #460 of 508 Old 04-21-2018, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthebold88 View Post
Ok. Is there a lower mA triggered one for my 150mA receiver? Or I'll probably just do the one listed in the 1st post and run two off a 12V 1A wall wart power adapter I have.
I use this one but its out of stock https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...179-ND/3992065

If you search through digikey or mouser, what you want is a 12v dc coil (less than 150ma) and 15a (or greater) 120ac (or greater) switching.
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post #461 of 508 Old 04-21-2018, 07:58 PM
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Looks like the lowest 30A mA trigger one in stock on Digikey is 83.3mA. So 2 would put me over my 150mA limit.

If I use the wall wart, this one should work for $15 : https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...3360-ND/268677

This one is only 1mA for $28: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...Aj1kCHOqViQ%3d


So I might as well just use the wall wart and smart strip I already have with the cheaper one. Does the first Digikey one looks like it should work?

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post #462 of 508 Old 04-21-2018, 08:14 PM
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Another possibility: Amazon sells a bunch of different types of relay modules that include the relay itself and optocoupler drive circuitry, apparently intended for Arduino hobbyists to use for appliance control. These would require a 12V wall wart supply for the relay coil current (collector current of drive transistor). The actual trigger current would be low, due to their use of an optocoupler to supply the base current for the relay coil's drive transistor. I searched for "12V 30A relay module optocoupler" on Amazon. Here's one example. Many of the matching items have terminals that look like they don't have the current rating supported by the relays themselves. Avoid these. I'd recommend avoiding those not using barrier strips like the one linked. Caveat: I haven't tried any of them, but only saw people referring to them on another forum.
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post #463 of 508 Old 04-21-2018, 08:52 PM
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Caveat: I haven't tried any of them, but only saw people referring to them on another forum.
I should qualify this. The forum in question was HTS, and the post is here. There is some potential confusion with this post, as it appears its author does not use a separate wall wart for the relay coil drive, but instead, apparently hard-wires the high side of the control signal to the high side of the relay coil, thus erroneously requiring the AVR trigger out to provide the relay coil current. See this page for more info about Arduino relay interface circuits and a schematic diagram of a typical relay module.
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post #464 of 508 Old 04-22-2018, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthebold88 View Post
Looks like the lowest 30A mA trigger one in stock on Digikey is 83.3mA. So 2 would put me over my 150mA limit.

If I use the wall wart, this one should work for $15 : https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...3360-ND/268677

This one is only 1mA for $28: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...Aj1kCHOqViQ%3d


So I might as well just use the wall wart and smart strip I already have with the cheaper one. Does the first Digikey one looks like it should work?
Do you really need 30A for one EP4000? This is $3 and much cheaper than the Omron, it looks like it should work https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...YxdlOkSBp0I%3d

If you're going to switch multiple amps then you should just build a relay box with a wall wart.

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post #465 of 508 Old 04-22-2018, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post
Do you really need 30A for one EP4000? This is $3 and much cheaper than the Omron, it looks like it should work https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...YxdlOkSBp0I%3d

If you're going to switch multiple amps then you should just build a relay box with a wall wart.
Well, going off what notnyt said and the manual saying it consumes 21.7A (2600W/120V), I figured 30A was a safe bet. If I can use that cheap relay though, then great.

I have 2 - 20amp lines run for my sub amps. I'm planning on adding probably 2 more amps and running a box of 2 relays per line.

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post #466 of 508 Old 04-22-2018, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post
Do you really need 30A for one EP4000? This is $3 and much cheaper than the Omron, it looks like it should work https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...YxdlOkSBp0I%3d

If you're going to switch multiple amps then you should just build a relay box with a wall wart.
blue trace on the bottom is the current draw from the EP4k. This is pushed to near its limits, but you can see the output (pink) is still not distorted. The amp in this case is drawing 29.1a RMS and 48a peak.

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post #467 of 508 Old 04-22-2018, 05:00 PM
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Ok, so if I use that $3 relay, I'm going to need a "snubber" diode? Is this the correct one? It looks like the updated version to the only working link I could find. https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...uoURVocQ%3d%3d

Then I just need to connect it between the wall warts wires before the relay? And can follow the rest of the steps in the first post.

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post #468 of 508 Old 04-22-2018, 05:19 PM
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Any 1N400X diode will work.

The cathode end (grey line) should be connected to the positive side of the input.



Here is a triggered pc fan I made which is similar to what you are doing.


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post #469 of 508 Old 04-22-2018, 07:46 PM
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Any 1N400X diode will work.

The cathode end (grey line) should be connected to the positive side of the input.

Here is a triggered pc fan I made which is similar to what you are doing.


Thanks, I can at least order those now. I was going off this, where it is connected between the 12V trigger lines before the relay, but it actually needs soldered between the input terminals on the relay? Is there room for that plus the quick disconnects?




Well, that diode I linked is out of stock. Voltage doesn't matter? https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...ZnvT4VW6Q98%3d

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post #470 of 508 Old 04-22-2018, 08:11 PM
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Just use these, they are $0.11 https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...nzoEybTgOPw%3d and has a reverse voltage rating of 1000v. I'm not sure if the distance between the contacts and diode are important but the diodes are pretty small. You can solder directly on and still use quick connects, thats what I did. The relays I linked to have a protective cover so you might have to cut it out to be able to solder a diode directly. Another option is to crimp the diode on the quick disconnect.

You can learn more about relays http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm
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post #471 of 508 Old 04-22-2018, 09:26 PM
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I'll try to solder if I can or just solder/crimp it into the disconnect. Should be easy enough to put it together then and only $6.12 for 2 sets (+shipping).

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post #472 of 508 Old 04-26-2018, 04:52 PM
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Can someone help me troubleshoot a problem?

I built one of these a few years ago. Used it with my trusty Lexicon MC-12 until I got a replacement Marantz 8802. Used it to turn on QSC amps for subwoofers.

When I plugged into the trigger on the Marantz much to my chagrin, nothing happened.

The only difference between the Marantz and the Lexicon is the Lexicon was bare wire and the Marantz the more standard 1/8 plug.

I measured the Marantz and get 12v at the trigger output. I measured the plug and get 12v at the + and - there.

When I solder the wires from the relay and plug the plug in to the Marantz, I do not get 12v at the +/_.

I tired a D cell battery to try and trigger the relay, but no joy.

Have I fired the relay somehow?

How can I proceed from here?

Thanks
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post #473 of 508 Old 04-26-2018, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Can someone help me troubleshoot a problem?

I built one of these a few years ago. Used it with my trusty Lexicon MC-12 until I got a replacement Marantz 8802. Used it to turn on QSC amps for subwoofers.

When I plugged into the trigger on the Marantz much to my chagrin, nothing happened.

The only difference between the Marantz and the Lexicon is the Lexicon was bare wire and the Marantz the more standard 1/8 plug.

I measured the Marantz and get 12v at the trigger output. I measured the plug and get 12v at the + and - there.

When I solder the wires from the relay and plug the plug in to the Marantz, I do not get 12v at the +/_.

I tired a D cell battery to try and trigger the relay, but no joy.

Have I fired the relay somehow?

How can I proceed from here?

Thanks
A D cell is 1.5 volts, it will not trigger the relay.

The Marantz trigger output is rated at 150ma, which relay are you using?

First make sure the power is unplugged from the relay box. Disconnect one of the trigger terminals. Ensure the marantz is on, trigger output is enabled, and then measure from the disconnected tab to the point on the relay you disconnected from. If that doesn't read 12v, then you likely have an open circuit or a short somewhere.
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post #474 of 508 Old 04-26-2018, 05:11 PM
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Car battery works. Relay not fried. Now I am really flummoxed.

This is the plug I am using. Seems to fit and I get 12v.

I must be missing something really simple.
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post #475 of 508 Old 04-26-2018, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jacket_fan View Post
Car battery works. Relay not fried. Now I am really flummoxed.

This is the plug I am using. Seems to fit and I get 12v.

I must be missing something really simple.
see my troubleshooting steps above. Ensure you have 12v at the leads right before the relay, if you do, and then you hook them up to the relay, and it doesn't close, your marantz is not outputting enough current to trip the relay.
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post #476 of 508 Old 04-26-2018, 08:00 PM
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Thanks notnyt, I appreciate the help.

You are correct, I do have 12v before the relay. But not triggering.

I am using a OmicronG7LiA-TUBJ-CB.

Do you have a recommendation for a relay that would work with <150ma? Sourcing electrical components is not in my wheelhouse.

Thanks

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post #477 of 508 Old 04-26-2018, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jacket_fan View Post
Thanks notnyt, I appreciate the help.

You are correct, I do have 12v before the relay. But not triggering.

I am using a OmicronG7LiA-TUBJ-CB.

Do you have a recommendation for a relay that would work with <150ma? Sourcing electrical components is not in my wheelhouse.

Thanks
It's interesting that your marantz isn't triggering that relay. Perhaps it's underrated or you're using a long enough cable run that adds more resistance.

This one is rated at 30a and only requires 100ma to trigger...

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...59pkkMqaVXk%3d

I updated the first post with this link, so let me know if you use it and it works for you.

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post #478 of 508 Old 04-27-2018, 04:32 AM
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I tried replacing the plug cable with shorter/better wire. Crimped and soldered all connections. That did not do it either.

I have the relay you suggested on order.

Will report back when I change out relays.

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post #479 of 508 Old 04-27-2018, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
blue trace on the bottom is the current draw from the EP4k. This is pushed to near its limits, but you can see the output (pink) is still not distorted. The amp in this case is drawing 29.1a RMS and 48a peak.

I always get confused about how much an amp "needs" at max or peak vs how much we are actually using at reference level volume.

With the efficiency of 4 corner subs (like I run) with 4 separate amp channels, I end up turning all my amps down about -10db at baseline just to get the gain stage right.

I most certainly don't get anywhere near clipping at reference (85db listening level).

quad subs + room gain is a lot of efficiency so I have never tripped my normal 20amp circuits (one per amp).

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post #480 of 508 Old 04-27-2018, 06:00 AM
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I got the relay working by plugging into "Trigger 2".

I am elated, but why does Trigger 2 work and not Trigger 1?

Thanks again notnyt. Your design works great and I am sure will continue to serve my needs.

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