Danley DIY Synergy Horn kit - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 519 Old 03-26-2011, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

SM60s:

I don't understand how this speaker works. How do you fit two 12's in this tiny enclosure. Where are they hidden?

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #122 of 519 Old 03-26-2011, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post

I don't understand how this speaker works. How do you fit two 12's in this tiny enclosure. Where are they hidden?

Check out Danley's whitepaper on Synergy Horns. You'll see a generic internal diagram. Good reading too!

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/danley_tapped.pdf
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post #123 of 519 Old 03-26-2011, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post

I don't understand how this speaker works. How do you fit two 12's in this tiny enclosure. Where are they hidden?

That's an SM60, there are no 12s in it. Two 8" drivers and a 5" coax.

SH60 has the twelves.
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post #124 of 519 Old 03-26-2011, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

That's an SM60, there are no 12s in it. Two 8" drivers and a 5" coax.

SH60 has the twelves.

Are you sure? I ask because I don't see the holes down the horn for the 8's to fire through. It looks like an SM60M (just the 5" coax) to me.

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post #125 of 519 Old 03-26-2011, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinculum View Post

Check out Danley's whitepaper on Synergy Horns. You'll see a generic internal diagram. Good reading too!

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/danley_tapped.pdf

Wow, very cool!! tks

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #126 of 519 Old 03-26-2011, 09:51 PM
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"I am very dubious about those measurements on that flare (PH4525)."

the frequency response includes the woofer, but that is not what i was pointing to. the question had been raised about whether or not the 4590 coaxial was capable of producing a coherent wavefront through its passband. the fact that phase is almost perfectly flat at zero degrees suggests that is the case.

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post #127 of 519 Old 03-26-2011, 10:07 PM
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"After following this thread for the last few days, I've realized that for the most part, I don't know squat about horns and have no idea what the heck people are talking about."

the qsc movie shows some of the benefits of time alignment (in their case, they use a coaxial drive). the danley horn beats the qsc design because the danley performs this 'trick' across the entire frequency spectrum, whereas the qsc only does it above 1700hz (the crossover point to the top horn in their digital cinema speakers).

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/spe.../dcs_4-way.php

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post #128 of 519 Old 03-26-2011, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Are you sure? I ask because I don't see the holes down the horn for the 8's to fire through. It looks like an SM60M (just the 5" coax) to me.

It may be an SM-60M, but the holes aren't very big for the 8s either way, and I can't see anything in that picture due to the quality. I was just clarifying that the design was of the SM family and not the SH family.
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post #129 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post

I don't understand how this speaker works. How do you fit two 12's in this tiny enclosure. Where are they hidden?

Little holes


THe PDF posted earlier shows it nicely.

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post #130 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Danley View Post

Hi DS-21
I am not sure I did mention that specifically. I was able to use the coax driver in an SH100 because the final radiation angle was the same as the cone's and the transition error at the hf exit was smallest of the possible choices.

The SM- series does use a coax driver but in a different way as you noticed. The cone is a compression driver as you suspect.
This configuration was one I wanted to get to eventually but it took a while to be able to get into molding horns like this. You can get the jist of how it works from the patent application which shows a cutaway view , examine Fig7 here;

http://www.google.com/patents?id=exX...page&q&f=false

As one can see in the general description, the small volume between the cone and throat acts like an acoustic low pass filter. By sizing these for the frequency involved, one can place the low pass corner just above the highest operating point for which ever range driver that is.
By low passing the mid (and low ranges in this case) before driving the horn, one has greatly reduced the inevitable harmonics the drivers produce, some to many fall above the low pass corner, this harmonic distortion is reduced. In that case the horn increases the radiation efficiency of each driver by increasing the acoustic load on it which reduces it's motion required at a given SPL.

I had meant to reply to Penngray about the HOM question and such but have been working on something. I will try now.

I wouldn't say I disagree with Earl but we do look at things from a different perspective. Earl is one of the very sharpest people I have ever met and I envy Earls ability to look, think, talk and imagine the math. In my head is a large cavity where the math co-processor and math ability would have gone and actually, I have had some of my largest leaps while working with people like Earl on hard technical problems.

If you want HOM's, take a very wide angle horn and drive it with a cheap 2 inch driver, actually I am saying the normal whatnot to do here.

I will explain how I see it, this is based largely on observation while trying to develop acoustic levitation transducers. These operated at 22KHz usually and required to make 160+dB for the levitation.

Also I will speak in practical terms by that I mean a distortion count may never reach zero but once below X is irrelevant or how theory requires bandwidth from DC to infinity to reproduce a square wave but to make one that looks perfect on an oscilloscope only requires about 10 X to 1 / 10 the center F.
Sound as in hifi is sort of like a set of Russian Dolls where the largest one (called 20Hz)is 1000 times bigger than the smallest one (they call her the dangerous one 20KHz). A given event at one frequency is the same at another accounting for scale if you follow.

We are aware of the first transition when we place two or more sources of sound like subwoofers close together. It is the closest thing to a free lunch in audio, when you double the number of sources; you have increased the power by four. This is because you have doubled the drive power with two and you have doubled the radiating area by two and this doubles the radiation efficiency, 2+2 =4, or 6dB.

As long as the sources all remain less than about 1 / 4 wavelength edge to edge, they combine coherently into one new source. If you measured the total sound power (going around the surface of an invisible sphere with a sound level meter) and then you reverse one of the two subs, you would find that because of coherent addition, you have near total cancellation (the principal of active sound cancellation).

AS one increases the spacing acoustically (by leaving the location the same but raising the frequency) one finds that once the two sources are say 1/ 2 wavelength apart, one is into a new form a behavior called an interference pattern. These are made of local regions of addition and cancellations and when viewed as a polar plot, have lobes and nulls.
In this interference region, if one measured the total radiated power and then reverse one source, the total energy may not be effected at all, only the interference pattern changes. Think of it this way, if you reverse one of your hifi speakers, they don't cancel each other because they are so far apart (acoustically) they don't add coherently and (hopefully) what you hear is a funny empty feeling in the middle and no bass (where the wavelengths are larger).

Sound can bend around corners just fine within some boundaries.
Sound can bend around a low frequency horn just fine, I have passed 22KHz sound through 3 feet of copper hypodermic tubing, wrapped around a coffee cup, with no problem. This bending can be done when the inner and outer acoustic paths in the bend are less than about ¼ wavelength different start to finish.

Here is an example of a device I developed called a Paraline used as an acoustic lens. We use it in a couple of our products but the illustration is better here in a design built by some friends under license. In this case used to convert a point source into a uni-phase plane wave (for use in a line array in live sound). Note how the sound path bends and converges with all paths being equal.

http://www.vtcproaudio.com/paraline02.html

We all know that say a 30 Hz horn requires a wall sized mouth to be ideal and this is true for one flow by helicopter. Theory requires, either by boundary reflection or actual that the mouth circumference should be about one wavelength at that low corner frequency.
The reason for that size is the radiation resistance curve, the curve goes from sloped to flat in this region and so continuing horn past here has no significant effect on efficiency.

Thus, an octave higher, one finds the end of the region of impedance transformation has moved up the horn towards the throat the point where it is now about 1wl in circumference and so on.

Octaves above the low cutoff, the active region well back in the horn but the unused part now serves to confine the radiation angle. In Don Keele's paper what's so sacred about exponential horns we have first steps into designing the horns directivity. (if you reading this so far, Google up his paper later). In it he also comes up with a thumb rule which defines the frequency where a horn mouth looses pattern control based on it's dimension and angle.

His interest can be seen when you consider that the exponential horn and others similar in shape have the above behavior and because of the shape of the horn, as the frequency climbs, the pattern width narrows according the portion of the horn governing the pattern at that frequency.

Again, I don't visualize math like Earl but to me his horn does this; It recognizes especially that as the waterfront becomes acoustically larger, that there is a maximum rate of change one can undertake based on avoiding a secondary radiation (something like edge diffraction). One can get a feel for how this could be when you consider that at 20KHz, the wavelength is only 5/8 inch!

That means all the impedance transformation has taken place well within the driver and even a one inch exit is large enough to have directivity, to confine the radiation angle to 60-90 degrees (depending on the driver internal geometry). You want HOM's put a big old driver on a big old 90 degree horn. Picture how well a source several wavelengths across fills the horn with luscious horn soundeewwww don't do that, it's like finding your cat left you something special in your shoe except for your ears..

Frankly, I don't know what to call what I hear with the Synergy horns now. As they got better and better in the measurements, more like one source, they sounded different too. It was not what I expected or would have guessed, nothing like that, the sound got simpler. Also, if I played a voice through a single speaker, it was a snap to hear what direction it was BUT it became much harder to hear how far away it was with your eyes closed. I have been calling it source identity for lack of a better term.

I have had a TEF machine for about 30 years now and have taken a zillion loudspeaker measurements as well as on all kinds of goofy stuff. I never saw anything that would explain what happened and this has was technically troubling while lead to a frequent topic to ponder. Eventually it gradually dawned on me what an explanation was.

Understand, this is how I see it right now.
We measure with a microphone which is one place in space.
WE hear from two points in space BUT we have learned that all the ripples and comb filtering ones ears CAUSE as a function of position are how we can hear height, front to back and such, domains seemingly inaccessible with only two reference points. We can't hear any of those huge deviations because they are the only thing we know, we don't hear a source grossly distorted because of what our ears do to it with changing position. In many ways, we do not hear like we measure.

If a speaker presents essentially the same signal to both ears, there is little or nothing for your ears to identify as a source location. However, if the source radiates differences that your ear can localize, then the physical location in depth is easy to identify with your ears closed.
On the other hand, take the grill off of an SH-50 and listen to it with a voice etc and you can literally walk up and put your head into it and it always sounds like it's somewhere floating in front of you.

Now, ironically that was sort of a side effect of trying to make the all the drivers combine coherently into one source letting the horn produce the radiation pattern. All of the problem one faces providing the best quality sound possible in a large space are so much larger than in the home and why commercial sound has never been as good as in the home.
There, it was clear that the larger the pa system, the worse it sounded generally.
Most of that was from the same self inference from sources too far apart to add coherently yet there was no solution to making one more powerful coherent source. Anyway, it's taken 12 years to get these horns where they are now, feels like I've been writing about that long so I'm going to get back to work now, hope this helps.
Best,
Tom

Im quoting just to say....Awesome stuff.

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post #131 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"BMS builds quality CDs and I suspect the BMS Coax is a great CD too."

penn, you may enjoy this one if you haven't already seen it. bms 4590 build. about 2/3 of the way down the page are measurements. the phase response appears to be...um...coherent.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/64694/633172.aspx

qsc is also using the 4590 in their digital cinema line, though i think they are wasting its potential by crossing it at 1700hz. they even have a little movie about phase coherence. but then they go and mess it all up with their midrange.
http://www.qscaudio.com/products/spe.../dcs_4-way.php

measured phase of 4590.


cutaway of the 4590.


lastly, these guys cross the 4592nd at a surprisingly low 270hz. that looks a little low to me, but 400hz in a home environment seems reasonable.
http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/d33.html

click on "products" then "loudspeakers" then "orphean mkii". they employ the 4592nd.

Thanks again LTD02, you pointed out the BMS 4590 in another thread for me in the first place

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post #132 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
Are you sure? I ask because I don't see the holes down the horn for the 8's to fire through. It looks like an SM60M (just the 5" coax) to me.
That photo is of the SM60M. But the SM60F is the exact same size horn in the same cabinet.

There are just additional holes for the woofer exit and the ports. So 8 more holes total.

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post #133 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 07:45 AM
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There are two SM-60s.

The SM-60F is a three way with a coaxial, and two eights. The SM-60M is a two way version with just the coaxial driver. If you can't see the extra eight holes at the mouth it is an SM-60M, as the holes aren't that small.
LL
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post #134 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 08:25 AM
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I found this great cutaway of the SM60F.



How cool is that? Note the cap on the back of the BMS coax.
LL

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post #135 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Very cool!

______________________________________________
Joe = LFE Addict
Past Builds: 24" LMS-5400 cube, Anarchy 25Hz Tapped Horn, Danley DTS-10 kit, BFM AutoTuba, BFM THT, BFM THT-LP
Joe's LOWARHORN build, Dual LMS-5400 Ultra Endtables build
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post #136 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
I found this great cutaway of the SM60F.



How cool is that? Note the cap on the back of the BMS coax.
The back cap went through several different designs. The main idea of the cap is two fold.

One reason is to keep the sound pressure from the woofers from modulating the cone on the midrange and reflecting sound through the cone.

The other is to provide a back chamber for the 5" so it will load better to the horn.

The close fitting cap also extends the response of the 5" down lower-when loaded on the horn.

The origional design covered the whole driver-but I found through testing that it could get hot enough in there to actually partially demagnetize the neo magnet.

So we redesigned it so the magnet is exposed to the air inside the cabinet (and the woofers moving the air around help to cool it also). Part of the problem was being able to get the terminals on the cone section of the 5" to be able to come out of the close fitting cap.

BTW the SM60M has the same back cap.

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post #137 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 10:03 AM
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Hi Guys
A couple quick answers

Noah asks RE; pattern loss frequency'

As freq increases, the wavefront becomes "unstuck" from the horn closer to the throat, with directivity being determined by that narrowing wall angle.

Yes, this visualization is correct, it is a function of the angle and acoustic size, once a waterfront is large enough, it can proceed on it's own, a stable configuration.

From what you wrote above, it sounds like any deviations from the intended well controlled wavefront, with resultant oblique sound paths.

Yes but this is all acoustic size related. If the acoustic dimension is small, sound can bend around a corner or go around an obstruction with little ill effect. This includes the horn's incoming wavefront shape expanding out to the horn wall angles. If that happens when the dimension is small, then the sound pressure can accommodate the new shape. If the wave front is acoustically large enough to have some directivity then a transition that is too rapid / too large given the in and out angles, then lobes and nulls can be produced, some of which can bounce off the walls internally.

In a perfect world, one only wants one mode, axial and uniform and in our case something like a fraction of a sphere.

So far as the word Mode, I suspect that is a reference to resonant cavities like lasers where only the fundamental mode is in phase across the face of the radiation. For example, a simple passive radiator with no spider can exhibit a higher order mode which is a rocking mode instead of the desired in and out.

LTD02 asks is there a region where the coherency is most important based on empirical observation? e.g., critical to get it down to 600hz, good to get it down to 300hz, not much to be gained below 150hz, or something like that?

I only have my impressions about this, but this seems to be related to how one hears position.

Where (in frequency) one has a good ability to localize the source of a sound, then having all the sources in one spot acoustically and in time is very desirable. Not doing that radiates clues your ears use to identify where the speaker is in depth.
My thinking is that what you DO NOT want to do is radiate anything that allows you to localize the source's physical depth, those clues come from small differences in the source from your right and left ears. Ideally, from a single source, you want the same thing in each ear (like a real source at a distance)

As such, my impression is that in the woofer range is where one can tolerate larger spacing of the sources. On the other hand, that is only how it looks because as you go down, the wavelength increase in size and the easier it is to be close enough.

have you experimented with binaural recordings using an anotomical accurate manican head with the microphones inside where our eardrums are located? that seems like it would provide an additional layer of insight into what is going on.

Well, the Stereo image has been a fascination of mine "forever". I have had several personal revelations about loudspeakers as a result of recording things.
I won't go into what I see now but I believe here is a fundamental error in the way we look at how we hear relative to what stereo is and how to record it. It is my hope that someday our company can pursue a stereo image capture process I have developed that uses a totally different approach than anything I know of.

If you're interested, pop on a set of headphones and listen to these experimental recordings based on the way I see it..
Understand, these are at various stages of development and as it is cumbersome to move with wires hanging off and such I only have these esoteric sound sources available within extension cord range of my house.
Anyway, these recordings are the front stereo panorama which I hoped would approximate ones visual field (all I can put in two channels) and are straight out of the recorder, no compression, no eq. I am working on a 8 channel full hemisphere capture but I don't have the upper speakers for that yet haha.
Let me know what you think;

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/Donny%27s%20Harley.wav

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/TrainStart.wav

Bill Waslo wrote Here's an approach I came up with.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...ml#post2425274
Not sure whether it is showing HOM or something else, but I think it is in the right direction for revealing these.

Hi Bill, that is cool! I think your spot on, one needs a way to identify the vector not just local pressure. We have come to think of sound as acoustic pressure like Voltage in a circuit but because of the gas law, sound is an event in multiple dimensions, and to think of pressure or velocity as real and imaginary analogous to an electrical circuit when that is not really it.
Dick Heyser argued to make the TDS approach totally correct (representing true acoustic power) that one HAD to have a velocity microphone AND pressure microphone inputs. One of his last papers was on instantaneous intensity on this subject.
How does the response of it compare to the pressure at the same spot?

LTD02 wrote they even have a little movie about phase coherence. but then they go and mess it all up with their midrange.

I liked their movie, makes me wish we could afford to make a little movie like that, we could include all the lower drivers too , representing music and voices etc.

We use that BMS coax (well 3 of them) in the JH-90 fwiw. BMS makes good drivers but I'm not sure one can make a phase coherent xover passively.

I got one to work on the ceramic version about 6 years ago but it wasn't that happy, the time internally is not quite there, the JH-90 is active. FWIW, Usually the BMS coax mf/hf crossover in that driver is more like 6-8KHz not 1700Hz.

Actually there is a real hifi company that has also discovered the audibility of source identity effect I mentioned earlier, the KEF Blade system is made to radiate as a simple point source. It does not go that loud, does not have constant directivity, no mention is made of preserving wave shape but it solves the source problem.

Ivan explains the back cap, one reason is The other is to provide a back chamber for the 5" so it will load better to the horn.
I thought I might expand on that as it was one of the hard things for me to understand about horns.
We mostly live in a bigger is better world, that's true for vented and sealed boxes, the bigger the better as low cutoff / maximum efficiency product are tied through cabinet volume.
With a given horn and driver, there is an ideal size for both the rear sealed volume (under the back cap) and the front sealed volume (the air trapped between the cone and throat /horn entry).

The bottom line is the best shape for the low frequency acoustic corner is arrived at by having the right rear volume AND the systems upper response corner highest with the right volume.
In this speaker, the acoustic low pass filter effect on the cone portion begins around 1500Hz and so content above that point produced by the cone is progressively attenuated but by then the upper driver has taken over.
Best,
Tom Danley
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post #138 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 10:25 AM
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Ivan,

Merely curious here; are the SH-50/SH-60 products a molded horn, or a fabrication of plywood?

Larry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post
The back cap went through several different designs. The main idea of the cap is two fold.

One reason is to keep the sound pressure from the woofers from modulating the cone on the midrange and reflecting sound through the cone.

The other is to provide a back chamber for the 5" so it will load better to the horn.

The close fitting cap also extends the response of the 5" down lower-when loaded on the horn.

The origional design covered the whole driver-but I found through testing that it could get hot enough in there to actually partially demagnetize the neo magnet.

So we redesigned it so the magnet is exposed to the air inside the cabinet (and the woofers moving the air around help to cool it also). Part of the problem was being able to get the terminals on the cone section of the 5" to be able to come out of the close fitting cap.

BTW the SM60M has the same back cap.
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post #139 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 01:40 PM
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The big horns are made of 13 ply baltic birch
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post #140 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04FLHRCI View Post

Ivan,

Merely curious here; are the SH-50/SH-60 products a molded horn, or a fabrication of plywood?

Larry

All of the Danley products (so far) with the exception of the SM line-the SH100 and SH100B and the floor monitors) use a wooden horn that is constructed of 18mm 13 ply baltic birch.

Since the horn is strong-and dense, it has no "sound" of its own-like thin walled horns do.

Our molded products use a thick walled very "dead" type of plastic that does not have a ring to it.

Sometimes it is better to make it out of wood, sometimes better to mold it.

The SM series would be VERY VERY hard to make out of wood and manufacturer. Sure, a guy who is a good wood carver could do it, but at what cost (time).

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post #141 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 04FLHRCI View Post

Ivan,

Merely curious here; are the SH-50/SH-60 products a molded horn, or a fabrication of plywood?

Larry

Here is a photo of some SH50's being built. This was in the first year of Danley history. There are quite a few pieces of wood in the horn itself.
LL

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post #142 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 03:40 PM
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Thanks for sharing Ivan.
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post #143 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Great photo!

Thanks for checking in.

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post #144 of 519 Old 03-27-2011, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

There are two SM-60s.

The SM-60F is a three way with a coaxial, and two eights. The SM-60M is a two way version with just the coaxial driver. If you can't see the extra eight holes at the mouth it is an SM-60M, as the holes aren't that small.

Ivan,

Just curious if the SM-60M can be upgraded to the SM-60F easily?
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post #145 of 519 Old 03-28-2011, 04:57 AM
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Ivan,

Just curious if the SM-60M can be upgraded to the SM-60F easily?

No. The difference in the horn is the whole mounting area for the woofers (built up for strength in holding the woofers). The baffle is not simply a place to mount the woofers, but is also "carved out" to account for the area between the cone and the baffle for proper "pressure" for the horn loading. And the port holes.

Not to say it can't be done, but it would take a good bit of "handywork".

The "hard part" (where the 5" coax mounts) is the same-along with the back cap.

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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Here is a photo of some SH50's being built. This was in the first year of Danley history. There are quite a few pieces of wood in the horn itself.

I love that picture, very cool stuff.

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Thanks for posting again Tom Danley!!

Is there any updates on what the DIY community could actually get??

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post #148 of 519 Old 03-28-2011, 09:27 AM
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That SM60F cutaway is very cool. I assume the ports are the holes closest to the mouth and that they are placed in order to maintain phase coherency, correct?

How about the possibility of a SM60F kit with the drivers, horn and crossover (either schematic for the user to build from or prebuilt). It would save the cost of the cab. So long as the user builds to the correct cabinet volume the port tuning and midbass performance would be retained. It would probably also be wise to build the exact same shape since it is well tested by DSL.

I don't know how much money this would save, but it is a start.

It would be very fun to play around with these and some foam. Foam the whole thing? Foam the throat holes? I can think of many combinations that might yield some positive results. Might.
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That might be where things could get ugly.

I doubt Danley would want to put their name on something that is not reasonably foolproof. As in, just needs a simple assembly where it is difficult to screw up.
Not that YOU couldn't build a workable cab, but many could not and it would sound like crap. So, I don't they want products out there that sound like experiments in physics with the Danley name present.

If there is a kit, it will probably a "some assembly required" only deal where the parts are all there to include the cab.

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post #150 of 519 Old 03-29-2011, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Any more news from Ivan?

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