Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 227 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6781 of 7274 Old 06-05-2019, 04:11 PM
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Hehe... power corrupts... no seriously, the absurdity of that statement is why I put only in quotation marks.

And fair enough about the real-world effect in terms of SPL. Drowned out below Schroeder...
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post #6782 of 7274 Old 06-05-2019, 07:34 PM
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IIRC, eng-399 has 4 B&C21's ported, powered by iNukes, reaching insane levels...just saying

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post #6783 of 7274 Old 06-05-2019, 08:41 PM
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As I've said many times, my 24 is dual 1-ohm DC, and my fp20k drives it just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NiToNi View Post
Here is four of [email protected] 3,400W each or 13,600W
129dB.
Deduct 10 dB for 10ft listening distance, 4-6 dB for baffle step and full space, 2-3 dB for power compression etc and it is not that extreme.
A room is not full space, in-room should be louder than the box model it won't lose that 6db. The other stuff yes. I'd be more worried about room nulls.

data-bass shows 18% distortion at 78volts, which is 2900watts @ 2.2ohms which appears to be about the maximum you'd ever want to send to it long-term.
if that model is correct it spends most of it's time above 5ohms where the power will be cut in half.
and near the impedance peak the watts will be only a handful.


He noted that a single 109v sweep needed a 10-15minute cool-down period, although it did "survive" that 4kW sweep he mentioned.

The 14k does close to 7kW @ 2ohm so it should be able to send it to the moon and back.

A single 20k should be able to handle that, although a pair of 14k's would be about ~3db or so louder (but only at the point where the woofer melts though...)

The difference between 9kW and 18kW is only 3db, or 2kW vs 4kW also 3db. So you wouldn't be missing much....
I guess you have to ask yourself how much is 3db worth to you: double the shipping and double the fan noise and double the rack space, double the room heat, double the idle power-draw, and nearly double the cost?

The 22k isn't 2-ohm stable (at all), so I would avoid that one in this application.

I've pushed my iTech 1ohm bridged and stereo 0.5ohm... it "worked", but it is FOR SURE more-happy doing 2-4ohm instead.
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post #6784 of 7274 Old 06-05-2019, 09:52 PM
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Two FP14000 is nothing but overkill for 4 of these drivers. I'm running a single FP14K on two (the same 21DS115's) and got them to smell bad once. Running off a single channel now and not in bridge mode anymore (8 Ohm drivers are in parallel) and plenty of headroom. In the room the drivers need like 100W each to reach 130db, I just do stupid things ocasionally.

Just get a 20K and use it for a while. If you really think that it's not enough, get a second one a bridge both. (hint: you won't)


Edit: I remembered that I'm actually running an FP13K. And it's Sanway's MK1 from the FP+ series, with less sustained output (around 3KW). AFAIK the FP20K's PSUs are both good for 4KW each, which is basically twice the sustained capabilities of my amp.
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post #6785 of 7274 Old 06-06-2019, 08:56 AM
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Simbosen & Sanway LabG Clones

Are you all using these for home theater use??
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post #6786 of 7274 Old 06-06-2019, 09:05 AM
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I assume you all are using these for home theater use??
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post #6787 of 7274 Old 06-06-2019, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownProductionsMobileDJ View Post
Are you all using these for home theater use??

Well some use their systems for parties I guess. I hope nobody is using these amps in a professional environment. As soon as you start making (enough) money with it, using clones is a big no no. Show up in the wrong place with that gear and you'll get sent home and never get hired again.
Read about MA lighting and their on-PC wings. These guys are among the only ones who actually take measurements against couterfeit units. Not legal measurements, more like 'expose you and never get hired again' measurements.

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post #6788 of 7274 Old 06-06-2019, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownProductionsMobileDJ View Post
Are you all using these for home theater use??
Most definitely

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post #6789 of 7274 Old 06-06-2019, 09:35 AM
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Many small sound companies in Texas, California, and Florida use these for live sound. Of course they are not dealing with national acts. More so on the local cover band circuit. From what they report, great success rate.
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post #6790 of 7274 Old 06-06-2019, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiToNi View Post

Consumed amplifer power is at its highest also around tuning:



Re frying the woofers, the 21DS115 has 3,400W of continuous program power capacity.
I would also point out that sending that much power to them at the tuning frequency where excursion is at it's minimum will fry them very quickly.
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post #6791 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
A room is not full space, in-room should be louder than the box model it won't lose that 6db. The other stuff yes. I'd be more worried about room nulls.

Speaker simulations based on Thiele-Small analysis assume a half-space load, i.e. the equivalent of flush mounting the driver on an infinite battle.

However, if the driver is mounted in an enclosure with a baffle not much wider than the driver’s diameter, regardless of where it”s placed in the room, it will see a free or full space load at subwoofer frequencies (IOW, the bass radiates in all directions). This difference in radiation between the sim (half space or 2 pi steradians loading) and reality (full space or 4 pi steradians loading) results in a 6 dB diffraction loss.

This effect has nothing to do with the room per we and happens before any boundary effects. Like I acknowledged, Room gain, resulting from how the walls and cavity of the listening room load the system, typically increase output from the system but is complex and difficult to simulate.

Peaks and nulls due to standing waves is again a whole other issue and not something we normally take into account when simulating SPL capacity of a subwoofer system, or at least I don’t.




Quote:
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data-bass shows 18% distortion at 78volts, which is 2900watts @ 2.2ohms which appears to be about the maximum you'd ever want to send to it long-term.
if that model is correct it spends most of it's time above 5ohms where the power will be cut in half. and near the impedance peak the watts will be only a handful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
He noted that a single 109v sweep needed a 10-15minute cool-down period, although it did "survive" that 4kW sweep he mentioned.

In my sim above, I use 86.5V, which is not too far off. 20% distortion on momentary peaks at those frequencies (15Hz) will hardly be audible and as you rightly mention, power draw will reduce significantly from there up to the impedance peak at 50Hz. And to be fair, how often, and for how long, would the system be going all out (86.5V into 15Hz) in reality? Don't know, perhaps I develop an obsessive taste for it (which seems to be common around here) but I think it's fair to say not often enough to become a real issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
A single 20k should be able to handle that, although a pair of 14k's would be about ~3db or so louder (but only at the point where the woofer melts though...)
Has notnyt tested the 20k, I can't seem to find the post? Or the TD;LR, how much power can it deliver with all four channels driven simultaneously into 2 ohm at sub-20Hz, continuously and momentarily (CEA-2010 6.5-cycle burst)? Or if he can't test four channels simultaneously, into 4 ohm bridged both channels driven?

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post #6792 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
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Two FP14000 is nothing but overkill for 4 of these drivers. I'm running a single FP14K on two (the same 21DS115's) and got them to smell bad once. Running off a single channel now and not in bridge mode anymore (8 Ohm drivers are in parallel) and plenty of headroom. In the room the drivers need like 100W each to reach 130db, I just do stupid things ocasionally.

Just get a 20K and use it for a while. If you really think that it's not enough, get a second one a bridge both. (hint: you won't).

It's always good to have a bit of headroom in an amp relative to the drivers' power rating since you don't want to drive them into clipping. And it allows for future upgrades (more or different drivers) and flexibility, e.g. going with the 8 ohm version of the 21DS115 instead.


But I hear what you're saying, I preferably wanted a single convenient package in the first place, so I will take another look at the 20k (if that seems to be the consensus over the 22k). Thanks!


EDIT: 130dB @ 100W from two 21DS115-4?? Not at 15Hz you ain't? Are you using them in a tapped horn?

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post #6793 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
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I would also point out that sending that much power to them at the tuning frequency where excursion is at it's minimum will fry them very quickly.
Why, because the electricity is converted into heat instead of kinetic energy? You'd think the manufacturers have taken such a given scenario into account when they label a driver as having "3400 W continuous program power capacity".

This is a quote from Art Welter's review of the SpeakerPower SP1-4000 plate amp ofver at DIYA:

"The amp is rated 4000W/2 ohm, 2400W/4, 1300W/8. Just about the time the amp arrived for evaluation I was testing new cabinet designs for the B&C BC18SW115-4, a four ohm 18 inch speaker that handles 1500 watts with around 15 mm Xmax. The BC18SW115-4 speaker could probably take every watt the amp could produce without a strain, so from a “bullet proof” powered speaker application, the amp would be a good choice.That said, for operators that wish to take advantage of the huge peak potential of the latest crop of super speakers, more power could be used."

The 18SW115-4 has the same 3400W continous program power capacity, size voice coil and Xmax/Xvar as the 21DS115-4. Art seems to suggest the driver could've taken much more than what the SP1-4000 could deliver.
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post #6794 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiToNi View Post
Why, because the electricity is converted into heat instead of kinetic energy? You'd think the manufacturers have taken such a given scenario into account when they label a driver as having "3400 W continuous program power capacity".

This is a quote from Art Welter's review of the SpeakerPower SP1-4000 plate amp ofver at DIYA:

"The amp is rated 4000W/2 ohm, 2400W/4, 1300W/8. Just about the time the amp arrived for evaluation I was testing new cabinet designs for the B&C BC18SW115-4, a four ohm 18 inch speaker that handles 1500 watts with around 15 mm Xmax. The BC18SW115-4 speaker could probably take every watt the amp could produce without a strain, so from a “bullet proof” powered speaker application, the amp would be a good choice.That said, for operators that wish to take advantage of the huge peak potential of the latest crop of super speakers, more power could be used."

The 18SW115-4 has the same 3400W continous program power capacity, size voice coil and Xmax/Xvar as the 21DS115-4. Art seems to suggest the driver could've taken much more than what the SP1-4000 could deliver.
From the manufacturers website:

Quote:
2 hours test made with continuous pink noise signal within the range Fs-10Fs. Power calculated on rated nominal impedance. Loudspeaker in free air.

Power on Continuous Program is defined as 3 dB greater than the Nominal rating.
The 1700W nominal rating is in free air where the driver would be moving and thus cooling the voice coils. Not in ported box.

The max rating is simply 3db more than the nominal rating, which is mathematically, double the power.

Cooling is needed for the voice coils. You can't expect to put that much power into wire without cooling it and expect it to last.

All this is to say be careful. Don't play dubstep at max volume around the tuning of the box. Are the speakers robust? Absolutely! But if abused they can be broken and the clones definitely have the power to do it.
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post #6795 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
All this is to say be careful. Don't play dubstep at max volume around the tuning of the box. Are the speakers robust? Absolutely! But if abused they can be broken and the clones definitely have the power to do it.

Fair play and agree 100%.


Does anybody have any experience from I.M. Smiths' versions of what seems to be the power equivalents of the FP14000 and FP20000 but with DSP built-in (TDi, H-DSP and KD series)?


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post #6796 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 06:40 AM
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I dont think so. @gixerking ordered the dsp 10q from sanway. That's the only mention if the dsp versions that I remember.

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post #6797 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiToNi View Post
Has notnyt tested the 20k, I can't seem to find the post? Or the TD;LR, how much power can it deliver with all four channels driven simultaneously into 2 ohm at sub-20Hz, continuously and momentarily (CEA-2010 6.5-cycle burst)? Or if he can't test four channels simultaneously, into 4 ohm bridged both channels driven?
haven't tested the 20k. If it uses the same PS as the 22k, which I believe it does, then it can run 8kw total with more burst available beyond that briefly. 2-3db max.
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post #6798 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 11:33 AM
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OK, thanks. Tested any of the DSP ones?
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post #6799 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, thanks. Tested any of the DSP ones?
no, they're just same amps with a dsp board in the chain. have not tested any, though.
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post #6800 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiToNi View Post
EDIT: 130dB @ 100W from two 21DS115-4?? Not at 15Hz you ain't? Are you using them in a tapped horn?

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About the dsp amps, I have Sanway's DP10Q and it's usable. I don't like the way the limiter works (minimum 3ms attack time) but having an EQ and presets in an amp is important for me. That being said, the presets have a maximum character count of 6, so it's hard to describe certain scenarios. The amp also has a higher noise floor than my FP-13000 and it doesn't come with a gate.
Gotta say that the touch screen is a nice gimmick. Haven't seen many amps around with a touch screen

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post #6801 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
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I dont think so. @gixerking ordered the dsp 10q from sanway. That's the only mention if the dsp versions that I remember.
I remember him pulling his hair out trying to get the dsp clones working (sanway), he seeked everyone's advice, I was the only one who could/did even slightly help, and he went through like 3 different connectors/adapters before caving in and buying one directly from sanway. It's not USB... and it's a FTDI chipset but uses a non-standard pin layout mix of both RS485 (layer-0) and RJ-45 (layer-0).

Normally RJ-45 is 8 wires and RS-485 is 3 or 4, and either can be one-way or full duplex, and either xover or plain.
(and then add non-standard pin layouts to that.) LOL Talk about confusing...

I only know these things because I've just so happened to have worked with all that junk at various OSI layers as part of my day job. Room 641A type-stuff

One final note: neither USB nor RS nor RJ are immune to groundloops or surges (consider ye informed.)
That said: They do make optical USB, but that still requires a powered USB hub to inject downstream power though. Still better to fry a hub than the whole motherboard on your high-end PC!
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XBS also has a DSP version of the 20k (and likely the 14k) but nobody that I know of has bought one yet, so we don't know how good/bad the non-DSP 14k XBS is, nor the DSP versions.
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post #6803 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 06:51 PM
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About the dsp amps, I have Sanway's DP10Q and it's usable.
Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of them on what the RS-485 to RJ-45 pin layout needs to be to make it work, they might need this info. (Or at least the specific adapters you bought that did work.)

Or are you touch-screen only?

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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of them on what the RS-485 to RJ-45 pin layout needs to be to make it work, they might need this info. (Or at least the specific adapters you bought that did work.)

Or are you touch-screen only?

The amp comes with the RJ-45 sockets and USB. The network cables are only needed if you want to control multiple amps via a single connection. I only upload profiles to a single amp so USB is all I need. I remember reading that Gixer solved his issues using an adapter from Sanway thou.

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post #6805 of 7274 Old 06-07-2019, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
The amp comes with the RJ-45 sockets and USB. The network cables are only needed if you want to control multiple amps via a single connection. I only upload profiles to a single amp so USB is all I need. I remember reading that Gixer solved his issues using an adapter from Sanway thou.
Oh, I thought he tried to get USB but they said no. Good to see that usb IS an option.

USB can identify multiple devices off the same hub or motherboard so any limitation is purely software based on their part, it's not a hardware limitation and so multiples shouldn't be much of a problem, and even if it were... you should be able to disable unused usb devices in device manager forcing their software to only "see" 1 even though multiple are connected at once. In-theory...
Absolute worst-case: just unplug the others from the hub.
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post #6806 of 7274 Old 06-09-2019, 07:30 PM
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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers

Need help. I have Dan from Sinbossen on messenger and she is wanting to know what power plug I need for the 240v version. I don’t know where in this thread I saw it. Also what fans should I ask her to put in it? so I don’t have to fan mod it. Also is just less than $700 a good price from Sanbossen for the 240v FP14000 with L6-30P power plug?

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Originally Posted by Purenv View Post
Need help. I have Dan from Sinbossen on messenger and she is wanting to know what power plug I need for the 240v version. I don’t know where in this thread I saw it. Also what fans should I ask her to put in it? so I don’t have to fan mod it. Also is just less than $700 a good price from Sanbossen for the 240v FP14000 with L6-30P power plug?

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Save yourself a headache and buy a 240v 30a/20a plug from Home Depot and replace whatever plug they send you. You may not get the plug you ask for anyways. Ask for their quiet fan if you don't want to mod yourself. Me personally, I'd leave the fan alone and put the amp in another room.

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post #6808 of 7274 Old 06-09-2019, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Save yourself a headache and buy a 240v 30a/20a plug from Home Depot and replace whatever plug they send you. You may not get the plug you ask for anyways. Ask for their quiet fan if you don't want to mod yourself. Me personally, I'd leave the fan alone and put the amp in another room.


Thank you for the quick response. Will do on the plug. As far as putting the amplifier in another room... not really an option at this time. Unless I redo my basement...


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post #6809 of 7274 Old 06-09-2019, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Save yourself a headache and buy a 240v 30a/20a plug from Home Depot and replace whatever plug they send you. You may not get the plug you ask for anyways. Ask for their quiet fan if you don't want to mod yourself. Me personally, I'd leave the fan alone and put the amp in another room.
I have their FP20 with the 'quiet' fans... not so quiet to me. Manage your expectations especially if it's located in the same viewing room

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post #6810 of 7274 Old 06-09-2019, 08:28 PM
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I have their FP20 with the 'quiet' fans... not so quiet to me.

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That's what I figured. I had the option to locate my amps in my equipment room behind my screen

Automation: Alexa- Harmony Hub- Wemo Dimmer Switch- Wemo Smart Plug BatCave: SY Triple Black
Video Image: JVC RS500- Sony UBP-800X- Chromecast- 125" wide 16x9 white over black spandex screen
Audio: 5.2.4 Marantz SR7011- (LCR) QSC 2180 - (Surrounds) (4) BIC FH6-LCR- (Atmos) (4) Dayton Audio B652 6-1/2-Inch- (Subs)2 23ishcuft ported HS24s 14-15Hz tune - 2 Devastator Minis B&C21ds115 - 4 PA460 in ported cabs 40Hz tune- FP20000Q- 2 Sanway FP10000Q- Crown XLS1500- . To be continued...
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