Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 228 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6811 of 6850 Old 06-12-2019, 05:15 AM
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What fans have people used with success in the FP20k to lower fan noise?

Mine's not installed yet, but considering the 30a Powercon and a fan mod before installing it the first time.

Thanks.

Tim
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post #6812 of 6850 Old 06-12-2019, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timgrady View Post
What fans have people used with success in the FP20k to lower fan noise?

Mine's not installed yet, but considering the 30a Powercon and a fan mod before installing it the first time.

Thanks.

Tim

People seem to like Noctua's. Oh and save yourself the headache and get a stepped drill bit for the powercon mod if you're doing it yourself.

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post #6813 of 6850 Old 06-12-2019, 07:15 AM
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For those of you that understand the difference in component parts, is there an appreciable difference between manufacturers Sanway and Sinbossen/XBS? Apparently both accept PayPal. I am very seriously interested in a FP14000 from either company. The Sinbossen version is slightly less expensive, bigger with deeper heatsinks in the back of the amplifier, and has more caps. But, is it better?


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post #6814 of 6850 Old 06-12-2019, 07:42 AM
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It has been said the Smiths FP14000 is the way to go. However, they don't accept paypal... at least to my knowledge they don't. I don't believe the XBS FP14000 has been tested, but I believe the Sanway has. If you search this thread or the "Measuring Amplifier" thread, you'll find the numbers.

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post #6815 of 6850 Old 06-12-2019, 08:17 AM
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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers

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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
It has been said the Smiths FP14000 is the way to go. However, they don't accept paypal... at least to my knowledge they don't. I don't believe the XBS FP14000 has been tested, but I believe the Sanway has. If you search this thread or the "Measuring Amplifier" thread, you'll find the numbers.


Just for anyone else interested Sanway does accept PayPal. I received an email from their representative Celine with an invoice to purchase an amplifier and it stated they accept PayPal.

Do you know why they say the Sanway is better? Just wondering if the slightly higher cost is worth it for the Sanway.
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post #6816 of 6850 Old 06-12-2019, 09:42 AM
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Just be aware if you have read parts of this thread not all Sanways turn out to be a good amp. There have been some that have failed granted they offer a 2 year phone support ( would you trust someone to troubleshoot your car over the phone vs taking it to a mechanic? ) its a risk they may have gotten better? I was burned once really not a fan of Sanway. Just my opinion no more or less.
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post #6817 of 6850 Old 06-12-2019, 11:44 AM
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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers

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Originally Posted by Cichlid109 View Post
Just be aware if you have read parts of this thread not all Sanways turn out to be a good amp. There have been some that have failed granted they offer a 2 year phone support ( would you trust someone to troubleshoot your car over the phone vs taking it to a mechanic? ) its a risk they may have gotten better? I was burned once really not a fan of Sanway. Just my opinion no more or less.


Thank you for your response and opinion.

Unless I hear others, I think I might go with Sinbossen/XBS. Seems for the risk it might be less of a risk with the XBS.

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post #6818 of 6850 Old 06-12-2019, 04:24 PM
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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers

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Originally Posted by timgrady View Post
What fans have people used with success in the FP20k to lower fan noise?



Mine's not installed yet, but considering the 30a Powercon and a fan mod before installing it the first time.



Thanks.



Tim


I use the fans nyt suggested early in the thread for my 14k

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post #6819 of 6850 Old 06-14-2019, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purenv View Post
with L6-30P power plug?

#notnyt #bassthathz
You can try asking for the L6-30P, but they'll just send whatever they want anyways. It always seems to get mistranslated.

The Smith's and Sanway 14k has been tested, the XBS 14k hasn't. Last I looked the XBS 14k looked crappier but maybe they have beefed it up since...

What I REALLY want to see is: a 14k with the 20k's power supply, and a few more transistors added "because they can".
Now THAT would be an awesome amp!
I already asked them but they either didn't care, or didn't understand, or didn't care to understand, or just following scripts, or didn't care to be market leaders. hehe!
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post #6820 of 6850 Old 06-14-2019, 09:02 PM
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Then they could really call it a 14k!
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post #6821 of 6850 Old 06-14-2019, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Then they could really call it a 14k!

As far as I remember the Sanway could actually be called 15k. Not 15kW into 10Hz and not 15kW for 20 seconds, but not's testing had that number appear around the 80Hz CEA burst iirc.

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post #6822 of 6850 Old 06-14-2019, 09:12 PM
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Yes but you can say that about many amps, they reach their stated power at a certain frequency, lots of distortion, and for a millisecond. That is why the testing amplifier thread was made so we know their true power.
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post #6823 of 6850 Old 06-15-2019, 02:52 AM
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@notnyt

I'm pretty sure notnyt's tests have only ever been CEA-burst only. (Maybe he can clarify.)
If he has tested the long-term power it hasn't been super clear or consistent.

As I mentioned years ago, it would be nice to have seen a power-vs-time chart for each amplifier, say @ 10hz, 50hz and 100hz @ 2, 4 and 8 ohms.

It's a very quick way to see EXACTLY how amplifiers compare.

CEA figures don't really tell us the whole story.

In any case: the breaker defines the allowable long-term power:
15a = [email protected] & [email protected]
20a = [email protected] & [email protected]
30a = [email protected] & [email protected]
minus some for efficiency losses and horrible power factor.

Burst-power is limited by the capacitors (or lack there-of).

The short-term power is limited by the romex awg size/length and breaker's age and trip-curve values, and any firmware limiters.
Each amplifier and house will be slightly different.

notnyt's test bench isn't the most ideal-conditions, his bench is 120V-only and a fairly long run of romex last he described it.
It's closer to a real-world scenario then a true unlimited test-bench. For the big amplifiers some of those tests are being slightly held back because of the undervolting. But maybe he has beefed up the wiring and breakers since, only god knows...

As soon as the grid starts undervolting you've just LOST some amplifier potential-power, because (ignoring capacitors) you can't get more out than what goes in; and and if what goes in is being limited, so WILL what goes out... and that's not the fault of the amplifier but of the pole transformer and the awg size/length used.

Some of us are fortunate and have a decent-sized pole transformer directly outside the house (like me). Other peoples transformer is half way down the block shared by a zillion other homes, which doesn't help at-all...
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post #6824 of 6850 Old 06-15-2019, 03:17 AM
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Movie explosions requires lots of burst-power. Dubstep at rock-concert levels for the whole song requires lots of long-term power.

The problem is: old-school have horrible burst-power but solid long-term power (although generally lower 1-3kW because they lack efficiency.)
and the new-school amps have lots of burst-power and weak long-term power because of heat build up from weak heat sinks and poor cooling and the general lack of transistor count to spread out the load (thermal density too high, current per chip too high!)

It is what it is, I suppose.

I'm pretty sure if China really put their minds to it they could create a 4U unit for twice the price of a 14k with double the output power, but who would buy it?
I doubt DIY'ers are keeping them alive, we are probably less than 1% of their sales...
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post #6825 of 6850 Old 06-15-2019, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Movie explosions requires lots of burst-power. Dubstep at rock-concert levels for the whole song requires lots of long-term power.

The problem is: old-school have horrible burst-power but solid long-term power (although generally lower 1-3kW because they lack efficiency.)
and the new-school amps have lots of burst-power and weak long-term power because of heat build up from weak heat sinks and poor cooling and the general lack of transistor count to spread out the load (thermal density too high, current per chip too high!)

It is what it is, I suppose.

I'm pretty sure if China really put their minds to it they could create a 4U unit for twice the price of a 14k with double the output power, but who would buy it?
I doubt DIY'ers are keeping them alive, we are probably less than 1% of their sales...

The lab amps have very good cooling (well they're supposed to run at max power for hours in bright sunlight). If you compare their blocks of heatsinks to something like an iNuke you know why those cheaper amps can't hold their power for long. And then there are special sub amps like the speakerpower with the lower switching frequency for better efficiency. Those just don't need huge cooling blocks.


I'm pretty sure like 90% of their stuff stays in China or goes to India.

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post #6826 of 6850 Old 06-15-2019, 08:10 AM
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If your amp comes with a power plug that has screw terminals inside, take the cover off and verify that the wires are stripped the correct length, fully inserted, etc. My smiths 14kq the wires were barely inserted.
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post #6827 of 6850 Old 06-15-2019, 10:09 AM
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Yea my Sinbosen 20k 220v came with a 110v 15a plug even after talking with them about it. Just plan on buying a new plug when you get it lol. Just got it hooked up this past week actually. Only running 1 channel for 1 HS24 right now (2 more coming soon) but man it gets that 24 moving!!

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post #6828 of 6850 Old 06-15-2019, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
@notnyt

I'm pretty sure notnyt's tests have only ever been CEA-burst only. (Maybe he can clarify.)
If he has tested the long-term power it hasn't been super clear or consistent.
I test burst and sustained numbers. As has been posted for just about every high power amp I've tested. Did you forget about the FP22K tests so soon?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
@notnyt
notnyt's test bench isn't the most ideal-conditions, his bench is 120V-only and a fairly long run of romex last he described it.
It's closer to a real-world scenario then a true unlimited test-bench. For the big amplifiers some of those tests are being slightly held back because of the undervolting. But maybe he has beefed up the wiring and breakers since, only god knows...
Not sure where you get this. 120V yes, but the test bench is almost within arms reach of my 200a panel on a 30a circuit


Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
@notnyt
As soon as the grid starts undervolting you've just LOST some amplifier potential-power, because (ignoring capacitors) you can't get more out than what goes in; and and if what goes in is being limited, so WILL what goes out... and that's not the fault of the amplifier but of the pole transformer and the awg size/length used.
Depends on the amp. SP6000 modules on 240v run through a buck converter to drop the voltage level first, for example.
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post #6829 of 6850 Old 06-17-2019, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
I test burst and sustained numbers.
That would just be a fixed amount of time, a time plot shows from say: 1ms to 5minutes.
It's a lot more work and time so I understand why you haven't done it in the past.

1/4th pink-noise for 5 minutes would be a good test, as that "simulates" an actual song at a realistic power level.
(or 1/8th if it can't pass the 1/4th test.)

A sinewave held for 0-5 seconds isn't nearly as-valuable a figure, unless you plan to burp the amp in a car competition (which is like: nobody). It shows the amps maximum short-term power but not the long-term power (over time!)

For example: your test method would show an iTech 8k to be a ~10kW burst and ~6kW short-term amp when bridged at 8-ohm, but it wouldn't show that it drops down to a silly-low ~100w after just 2 minutes. i.e. we could be missing valuable information on the amps being tested. We would then know to avoid that amp. Especially for subwoofer-duty.
The K10 is a 1250w x2 amp long-term, etc.

This isn't the first time I've brought this up. I guess I'm the only one who cares about seeing longer-term power values being tested (minutes)...
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post #6830 of 6850 Old 06-17-2019, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
That would just be a fixed amount of time, a time plot shows from say: 1ms to 5minutes.
It's a lot more work and time so I understand why you haven't done it in the past.

1/4th pink-noise for 5 minutes would be a good test, as that "simulates" an actual song at a realistic power level.
(or 1/8th if it can't pass the 1/4th test.)

A sinewave held for 0-5 seconds isn't nearly as-valuable a figure, unless you plan to burp the amp in a car competition (which is like: nobody). It shows the amps maximum short-term power but not the long-term power (over time!)

For example: your test method would show an iTech 8k to be a ~10kW burst and ~6kW short-term amp when bridged at 8-ohm, but it wouldn't show that it drops down to a silly-low ~100w after just 2 minutes. i.e. we could be missing valuable information on the amps being tested. We would then know to avoid that amp. Especially for subwoofer-duty.
The K10 is a 1250w x2 amp long-term, etc.

This isn't the first time I've brought this up. I guess I'm the only one who cares about seeing longer-term power values being tested (minutes)...
Sorry, but no, your scenarios are not meaningful. These are amps, not welders. Most of the high power amps I'm testing will run at or near the sustained numbers until tripping a 30a breaker.
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post #6831 of 6850 Old 06-17-2019, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
That would just be a fixed amount of time, a time plot shows from say: 1ms to 5minutes.

It's a lot more work and time so I understand why you haven't done it in the past.



1/4th pink-noise for 5 minutes would be a good test, as that "simulates" an actual song at a realistic power level.

(or 1/8th if it can't pass the 1/4th test.)



A sinewave held for 0-5 seconds isn't nearly as-valuable a figure, unless you plan to burp the amp in a car competition (which is like: nobody). It shows the amps maximum short-term power but not the long-term power (over time!)



For example: your test method would show an iTech 8k to be a ~10kW burst and ~6kW short-term amp when bridged at 8-ohm, but it wouldn't show that it drops down to a silly-low ~100w after just 2 minutes. i.e. we could be missing valuable information on the amps being tested. We would then know to avoid that amp. Especially for subwoofer-duty.

The K10 is a 1250w x2 amp long-term, etc.



This isn't the first time I've brought this up. I guess I'm the only one who cares about seeing longer-term power values being tested (minutes)...
I would disagree. Notnyts numbers show the difference between the amps that can burst huge numbers for a tiny fraction of a second and those that deliver for significantly longer periods of time, multiple seconds. Surely for subwoofer use we want multiple seconds of max power versus just a couple msec bursts. Eventually the output is limited by the input power but in notnyts testing we can see when the power output drops to longer term sustainable levels (or the amp is running without adequate protection mechanisms and self destructs). We don't need to extend to 5 minutes.

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post #6832 of 6850 Old 06-18-2019, 05:45 AM
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Things i have noted since using amplifiers (Smiths)...

1) On sustained bass notes my old Sanways used to chip (30amp breakers religiously) These are more efficient.
2) Long cable runs to speakers are problematic. Anything over 100ft and the amps ability to control the speakers are lessened. (Dampening factor if you believe in such things)
3) No problem playing 2.66 ohms all day and night given the proper power. Even on saggy power lines will produce but will be limited.
4) Clean them once a year set it and forget it.
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post #6833 of 6850 Old 06-18-2019, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Most of the high power amps I'm testing will run at or near the sustained numbers until tripping a 30a breaker.
That's good info to know.

Usually as soon as I see the clip light I turn it down 1db, and apparently by doing that I've never been able to trip any of my breakers with any of my amplifiers. I like to play it safe I suppose.

I usually listen to songs back-to-back for hours, the only rest the system gets is when switching between songs or between the intro and the climax.

2 18's and 1 14k just wasn't getting the job done...

But now with the upgrades I've done in the past year here, usually by the time I hit the -10db LED the system is melting my eardrums off, there is FINALLY enough headroom to be able to sustain the SPL I like to listen at, pretty much indefinitely. It took about ~32 channels of clone power and subwoofers to get there however.
I'm definitely happy on the SPL for the mids and tweets, but more bass is still a welcomed concept.

I will say though that my XTI 4k's smoked pushing four UM-15's and the breakers never tripped once!
I threw the amplifiers in the garbage (where they belong.)
My EP4k's and Sanway CA-30 is also "gone", all those amps ever did was clip to death.
All I can say is: the clones seem to have enough legit-power for the task at hand and don't break the bank or back.

I could have saved like $6000 by never buying ANY behringer or crown amps, but the FP clones from China were a big unknown back then, and substantially higher risk than the tested-and-verified amps of today. Oh well...
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post #6834 of 6850 Old 06-25-2019, 01:24 AM
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Hey All,

Apologies for jumping in late on this long running conversation which has been incredibly insightful on the the quality and expectations associated with these clone amps.

I recently purchased an FP10000Q clone from 'The Loud Factory' by way of Ebay.

Unclear if the origin of this amp is actually Sanway or one of the other manufacturers. I've got a 120V version.

The amp drives (4) 4 Ohm subwoofer loads (4 Ohms/Channel) in dance music/club environment. Upon approaching -4db on the signal meters I noticed an electrical burning smell, and found the power cord of the FP hot to the touch. No fuses blown, or breakers popped on the 30A 120V circuit. When I backed down the sub level to below -10 the smell disappeared and the heat significantly dissipated from the power cable. Was able to get through the rest of the night staying below -10 with no issues. Inspected the amp and found no obvious signs of internal component damage.

Has anyone else encountered this behavior when driving similar loads at similar levels?

Naturally it appears the amp draws significant power at the desired program level - my thought to correct this and ease the load on what appears to be an undersized power cable would be to operate at 208/240V, which should decrease the current draw to a safer level.

Has anyone gone though this conversion process before? What was involved?

Thanks for any insight!
-Griffin
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post #6835 of 6850 Old 06-25-2019, 06:52 AM
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Hey All,

Apologies for jumping in late on this long running conversation which has been incredibly insightful on the the quality and expectations associated with these clone amps.

I recently purchased an FP10000Q clone from 'The Loud Factory' by way of Ebay.

Unclear if the origin of this amp is actually Sanway or one of the other manufacturers. I've got a 120V version.

The amp drives (4) 4 Ohm subwoofer loads (4 Ohms/Channel) in dance music/club environment. Upon approaching -4db on the signal meters I noticed an electrical burning smell, and found the power cord of the FP hot to the touch. No fuses blown, or breakers popped on the 30A 120V circuit. When I backed down the sub level to below -10 the smell disappeared and the heat significantly dissipated from the power cable. Was able to get through the rest of the night staying below -10 with no issues. Inspected the amp and found no obvious signs of internal component damage.

Has anyone else encountered this behavior when driving similar loads at similar levels?

Naturally it appears the amp draws significant power at the desired program level - my thought to correct this and ease the load on what appears to be an undersized power cable would be to operate at 208/240V, which should decrease the current draw to a safer level.

Has anyone gone though this conversion process before? What was involved?

Thanks for any insight!
-Griffin
To my knowledge, everyone who's purchased a clone has replaced the power cable with a much beefier one. I'm not familiar with the vendor you purchased yours from, but I'm sure they cheap out on the power cable just like the rest of them.

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post #6836 of 6850 Old 06-25-2019, 08:36 AM
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I've always been happy with my Sanway powercords. They use an 11AWG cable for 240V operation, which is even fit for 32A.

-4 on the amp with all channels driven is about 3300W, so it's well over 3.5KW power draw RMS if you're running dubstep. That's around 30A, which 11AWG should be the minimum for. If yours is 12AWG or higher, you'll have to swap it out.

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post #6837 of 6850 Old 06-25-2019, 02:48 PM
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Great, thanks for the feedback. Comforting to hear that many others have upgraded the power cord on their amps. Mine isn't specifically labelled, but it can't be more than 14-16ga so that's definitely in order.

I still worry about what's downstream of the power cord being overloaded, but will have to crack open the amp again to see how the cord is terminated.

Thanks,
-Griffin
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post #6838 of 6850 Old 06-25-2019, 05:50 PM
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30a requires 10awg.
It is likely that you are undervolting the pole transformer/grid. Having thin power cords just makes it that much worse.
Both cause the amplifier to have to work harder, which means bad things are more likely to occur and/or the rated power won't be reached.
Voltage is potential energy, and just like a university art degree a lack of potential is ungood. hehe!
In order to maintain power to the speaker this causes the current to increase, current and/or power causes heat. Exponentially.

As you probably know, the 10k is also one of the weaker clones.
The 20k is about twice as powerful, and dual 14k's is a little bit more than double... or about a ~3db advantage,
both having two power supplies, and the dual 14's having two power cords, double the heatsink and fans, so substantially cooler operating under the same conditions (but also twice the cost and twice the rack space!)

I have all-stock power cords on mine, that said I don't often push the amps hard.

Last edited by BassThatHz; 06-25-2019 at 05:54 PM.
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post #6839 of 6850 Old 06-25-2019, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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30a requires 10awg.
This is NEC for solid core romex in wall wiring attached to a 30a breaker. For a short power cord, you can get by with less.

Last edited by notnyt; 06-25-2019 at 08:00 PM.
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post #6840 of 6850 Old 06-25-2019, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
30a requires 10awg.
This is NEC for solid core romex in wall wiring attached to a 30a breaker. Stranded wiring of a power cable can carry more current at the same gauge.
Ty. Here in Germany the minimum is 11awg for 32A, but ~9AWG (6mm2) is more commonly used, especially for longer wire runs.
Why are you saying that stranded wire of the same gauge can carry higher current? If you're talking about the skinning effect, that is only relevant at higher frequencies OR when dealing with much thicker cable (at 60Hz it's starting to become relevant at roughly an inch of cable diameter iirc).

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