Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 242 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7231 of 7264 Old 05-18-2020, 04:08 PM
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I use a 24AI for Atmos analog XLR-in from my 7705 (movie-mode only.)
The monitoring USB is also a 2-ch audio uplink (it can do more than 16 channels.)
Then I have 2 24AO for analog XLR-out which goes to the FP's.
Since the 24 cannot do USB3 I had to buy a 624 and a Motu AVB switch so that all 4 devices could talk with each other and pass the 128 channels of audio through a single USB cable (it also has Thunderbolt). It can also do AVB direct if you have an Apple.

Each switch is good for 640 switched channels of lossless, plus an additional up/downlink of at-least 128channels.
I'm using 5 of the 6 ports, so technically I could add another 24AO if I needed to, before having to buy a 2nd AVB switch (96 channels).

For DSP I use Adobe Audition in ASIO bitperfect R/T mode. 1-20hz HPF's are supported OTTB, but if you want to PEQ to 1-19hz you'll need buy the Hofa plugin. The onbound Motu DSP doesn't have any HPF's last I looked.

But 24 channels of XLR per RU is awesome.
The newer ones (624 and 16IO) do 128 channels per cat5 cable/port but don't have XLR, the older models (the 24's) max out at 24 or 32 channels but have XLR.

With the right software and enough Ryzen cores, or with enough DSP-PC's in general, you could scale into the thousands of channels easily, as long as you don't need more than 128channels talking across any given-pair.
*if* you wanted to spend Tesla-money on just DSP alone... that is.
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post #7232 of 7264 Old 05-18-2020, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The Motu's are dead silent and flat from 1hz to nyquist, I also use them to power my HD800 headphones in balanced-mode, it's awesome (even made a custom Atmos-Headphone downmix, because I could.)

According to NotNyt the only issue with Motu is related to the Sabre DAC, which has some noise above 60khz that interferes with "some" pure Class-D amplifiers that have input signal issues, nothing a human could ever hear though.
I believe he uses the Hypex amps which have that issue so he couldn't go with that gear. The FP's don't have an issue with the input signal.
I don't think it's the dac, I think it's Motu's power setup and analog stage.

There's notable dc offset from the Motu output. Otherwise, excellent interface. I use an 8a in my system. As long as your amps aren't DC coupled, should be fine.
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post #7233 of 7264 Old 05-18-2020, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
For the LCR's and subs, each driver gets its own amplifier channel, direct connection.
No passive components.

1.3kW into a 10w Fostex.
1.3kW into a 100w SEOS DNA.

The except is my surrounds and heights, which have crossovers and only get 1 channel per speaker from the 10k's (which is still an insane amount of power for those, no HPF's though.)

The only thing that has a HPF is the HzHorn (15hz tuning), the rest get whatever the amplifiers/sabre reference dac's can output (so flat to 1-2hz.)

All 5 HDMI cables are hybrid optical in my system, all full/real XLR end-to-end.
This is with two usb cables (one from Motu rig to DSP-PC, and another from HTPC to Motu rig for monitor and 2-ch music-mode.)

Cat 5 to every Motu device, Cat5 for both the HTPC and DSP-PC, 7705, and BD player for netflix, ISP box for 4k TV/streaming etc.

When you look up cable management nightmare in the dictionary, you'll see my system!
72 channels of DSP, and 32 channels of FP amplification...








The worst part is, any attempt at cable management will just make the noise worse because the distance between cables is what helps reduce noise. I did try to keep power cables and audio cables and data cables separate though, and for the most part that holds true...
@BTH

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post #7234 of 7264 Old 05-19-2020, 12:32 AM
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Notnyt how are using the 8A?

I looked at a few of the Motu devices and while I would love to have the larger channels for possible future improvements I dont need them for a while.
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post #7235 of 7264 Old 05-19-2020, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Notnyt how are using the 8A?

I looked at a few of the Motu devices and while I would love to have the larger channels for possible future improvements I dont need them for a while.
You can use it as a usb audio interface. Mine is not setup that way, but connected to my RME UFX+ via adat just to add some extra i/o... really only using it for outputs for subs / surrounds. I need 6 channels of output just for my front stage, 2 for subs, 4 for surrounds. There's a small linux box hooked up to the UFX+ running brutefir that does all the processing.
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post #7236 of 7264 Old 05-20-2020, 12:31 AM
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Hello Guys. I went through about 50 random pages of this topic, and did not find what I´m look for. Would anyone be kind enough, and point me closer to finding what is the measured power of FP10000Q and its behavior at lowish impedance? Thank you very much.

I am thinking about unconventional system - four 2Ohm 18IPALs driven in super compact ported enclosures. It would be little undertuned (for PA) box, and cut above tuning frequency, so the amplifier would see higher average impedance. Specifically 3,15R at crossover point set up to 38Hz, where the power should be reduced to half due to the filter function.


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What do you think of that approach? No problem with the amp?
Thank you.
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post #7237 of 7264 Old 05-20-2020, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Petr Berka View Post
Hello Guys. I went through about 50 random pages of this topic, and did not find what I´m look for. Would anyone be kind enough, and point me closer to finding what is the measured power of FP10000Q and its behavior at lowish impedance? Thank you very much.

I am thinking about unconventional system - four 2Ohm 18IPALs driven in super compact ported enclosures. It would be little undertuned (for PA) box, and cut above tuning frequency, so the amplifier would see higher average impedance. Specifically 3,15R at crossover point set up to 38Hz, where the power should be reduced to half due to the filter function.

What do you think of that approach? No problem with the amp?
The IPAL's were stressing the K20 when tested on data-bass. Those 0-ohm woofers are just "silly" if you ask me.

That said, I did try quad 2-ohm on my Sanway FP10k for a while (only to -4db, not quad clipped.)
It's still alive, if that answers your question.

If any of the clones are used for IPAL's, it should be the FP14k. It has the best cooling and most output for a given channel.

For whatever it is worth, I ran my iTech 8k at dual 1-ohm for about a year. It's also still alive, but that amp is rated for 1-ohm in the whitepaper, it prefers something closer to dual 3-ohm, but it will do dual 1-ohm on a 240V breaker.

A number of DIY'ers power IPAL's with SpeakerPower amps, not sure how well it works though...

As the ohms approach 0, the arc-welder requirements approaches flux-capacitor, or room-temperature super-conductor or infinity (whichever of the three is the easierest to make...)
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post #7238 of 7264 Old 05-20-2020, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by j.d. View Post

If you had to move to another place, would it be true that the worst part of relocating the gear would be the cables?
The hardest part is soundproofing 100kW of bass, in a post CV19/Guide Stone's economy.

But yes in an all-active system, one wrong mouse click could be fatal.
(Don't want to send 14kW's of clipped 10hz to a tweeter...)

If the amp knob's slip during shipment, it could be fatal to a tweeter or a mid also. (Don't supplant a tweeter-amp for a sub-amp, or lose track of the knob positions.)

Generally you don't want 0db of attention going to a high-efficiency tweeter on a FP10k, at best it causes hiss at idle, at worst it causes beryllium blendtech-smoke. (Don't breathe this! )
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post #7239 of 7264 Old 05-20-2020, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz
The IPAL´s were stressing the K20 when tested on data-bass. Those 0-ohm woofers are just "silly" if you ask me.
Yes, you tell me... Now, as far as I remember, data-bass tested only 21IPAL. That is 0.7R resistance, 1R impedance. 18IPAL is double that, and I would like to use it outside its impedance minimum.

Quote:
That said, I did try quad 2-ohm on my Sanway FP10k for a while (only to -4db, not quad clipped.)
It's still alive, if that answers your question.
Naaa, I´m not just about "keeping the amp barely alive". That´s the problem. I´m aware it is borderline to some degree.


Quote:
If any of the clones are used for IPAL's, it should be the FP14k. It has the best cooling and most output for a given channel.
That looks like mismatch to me, meaning it is not exactly worthy and usable pair with IPALs - I will not connect my speakers in series. What a shame, it would be nice otherwise.

With FP10000Q, the point is in the real load from my concept. 2Ohm speaker tuned and used in a way, that impedance minimum at crossover frequency would be 3,15R, and while crossed at that, the current load would be about three quarters to what it should. I.E, should be similar load as 4Ohm driver would put on the amplifier. But still, there is this zero-ohm wire, even when not much current flows through it. I´m unsure.

Quote:
As the ohms approach 0, the arc-welder requirements approaches flux-capacitor, or room-temperature super-conductor or infinity (whichever of the three is the easierest to make...)
Yes, I might as well drop this idea, and go with just FP140000Q and 18DS115 drivers. But I would be very certain, that for the content I play, these would not be happy handling all that power.


Anyway, thanks, now I have even heavier head than before. Or maybe pressurized, it will explode soon. :-)
Outside of the topic, I´m also looking at PNKcontrols and Digisynthetic amps. But it is the same story there.
Mostly home usage, low noise required...

Last edited by Petr Berka; 05-20-2020 at 04:01 AM. Reason: mistakes in text
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post #7240 of 7264 Old 05-20-2020, 03:12 PM
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Naaa, I´m not just about "keeping the amp barely alive". That´s the problem. I´m aware it is borderline to some degree.

Yes, I might as well drop this idea, and go with just FP140000Q and 18DS115 drivers. But I would be very certain, that for the content I play, these would not be happy handling all that power.

The 10Q is rated for quad 2 Ohm. I've run my FP-13000 into 1R full tilt. The output muted after a few ms, DC protection.
I've also run the bridged FP-13000 into two 21DS115 full tilt for a while (2x8R parallel). The drivers only started smelling when I pushed the amp into (current) clipping. The drivers didn't get affected by this, I immediately turned the volume down after the experiment.
I'm running two channels of my 10Q into cabs with an impedance minimum of 2.5R. Handles it fine at max output.

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post #7241 of 7264 Old 05-20-2020, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
You can use it as a usb audio interface. Mine is not setup that way, but connected to my RME UFX+ via adat just to add some extra i/o... really only using it for outputs for subs / surrounds. I need 6 channels of output just for my front stage, 2 for subs, 4 for surrounds. There's a small linux box hooked up to the UFX+ running brutefir that does all the processing.

Got me thinking, 4 Behringer ADA8200 plus an RME Digiface USB would make for a pretty cheap 32/32 system. I use that preamp to extend my Fireface UC via ADAT. The only complaint I'd have with it would be the noise floor.

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post #7242 of 7264 Old 05-20-2020, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Got me thinking, 4 Behringer ADA8200 plus an RME Digiface USB would make for a pretty cheap 32/32 system. I use that preamp to extend my Fireface UC via ADAT. The only complaint I'd have with it would be the noise floor.
Sounds like it'd work, but I don't see any specs avail for the ada8200.

Could just get a motu 16a, though, unless you need a lot of io for some reason.
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post #7243 of 7264 Old 05-21-2020, 04:16 AM
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peniku8: Yes, paper will hold any parameters, reality though....
Anyway, that is encouraging, as I will not be only power limited by just the driver the same way I´m now with 21DS115 - Yeah, I know that smell too!
Next step would be amplifier and mains, where I would like to stop. FP10kQ and four IPALs should get me there.
I´m going to check or borrow first 18IPAL driver very soon, to see if I like these.
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post #7244 of 7264 Old 05-21-2020, 10:05 AM
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Could just get a motu 16a, though, unless you need a lot of io for some reason.
Yes the 16a also has dual 8ch of ADAT and 256 channels of AVB, so you could hang 1 24AO and two RME's off it etc. The USB2 is limited to 128 channels, which is more than what "most" people need.

The only reason I went with the 624 is that I needed two channels of mic-pre, and I needed USB3-support for more channels (256ch), and it was cheaper than a 16a.

A single 24AO has triple 8ch of ADAT, 96ch of AVB and 128ch of USB2 as well. Fine if you need lots of outputs and only digital inputs. Otherwise a 16a or 24AI would have to be added for analog-in (TRS vs XLR).

Last edited by BassThatHz; 05-21-2020 at 10:09 AM.
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post #7245 of 7264 Old 05-21-2020, 02:04 PM
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USB2 is limited to 128 channels
That usually depends on the sample rate. idk about the Motu thou.

My next interface will eventually be a venture into DigiGrid. I like audio over Ethernet. Plus you don't have to use a DAW for effects and it's not as expensive as the competitors I was looking at (Universal Audio mainly).

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post #7246 of 7264 Old 05-23-2020, 06:16 PM
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Was thinking of using an FP6000Q or 10000Q to drive 3 to 4 PR based subs that are cone excursion limited around 1100 watts (Av15H in a 24" cube with two 18" PRs).

But they'd be in a family room ... with the modded fans, how audible are these suckers? Are there versions with less audible fans?

 

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post #7247 of 7264 Old 05-23-2020, 08:09 PM
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Was thinking of using an FP6000Q or 10000Q to drive 3 to 4 PR based subs that are cone excursion limited around 1100 watts (Av15H in a 24" cube with two 18" PRs).

But they'd be in a family room ... with the modded fans, how audible are these suckers? Are there versions with less audible fans?

Yes it is called installed in the attic or get the real stuff


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post #7248 of 7264 Old 05-23-2020, 11:39 PM
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Was thinking of using an FP6000Q or 10000Q to drive 3 to 4 PR based subs that are cone excursion limited around 1100 watts (Av15H in a 24" cube with two 18" PRs).

But they'd be in a family room ... with the modded fans, how audible are these suckers? Are there versions with less audible fans?
They are roughly as loud as a projector that has reached max temperature and full brightness.
Alternatively, as loud as the fan in your microwave roughly.

If you have a broom closet or crawl space /attic or HVAC room / garage that you could throw it in that would probably be best in terms of noise reduction. 12awg can easily go 100ft, and so can XLR cables if you have a processor with real XLR outputs (or CleanBox Pro's or a miniDSP with XLR-out).

Alternatively, you could do a fan modification, it won't be silent but it might be livable.

Of all the amplifiers I've owned or heard in-person, ranked by stock idle fan noise:
1) Crown iTech 8k, especially when it's angry (which is often)
2) Sanway CA-30
3) FP clones
4) EP4k
5) iNuke's
6) Crown's with 0-RPM fans.

Noise ranked at full-output:
1) Crown iTech 8k
2) Crown's with 0-RPM fans.
3) Sanway CA-30
4) FP clones
5) iNuke's
6) EP4k

So not the noisiest, but not quietest either...
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post #7249 of 7264 Old 05-24-2020, 03:09 AM
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Thx Bass, is the above ranking with whatever "fan mod" that Sanway does at the factory when a home theater version is requested?

 

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post #7250 of 7264 Old 05-24-2020, 04:49 AM
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Yes it is called installed in the attic or get the real stuff


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The real stuff? As in non-pro amps?

 

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post #7251 of 7264 Old 05-24-2020, 08:09 AM
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Thx Bass, is the above ranking with whatever "fan mod" that Sanway does at the factory when a home theater version is requested?

On my 14k, they seemed to install a thermal switch, in series with the fans that was in contact with the output board heatsink. The fans were still loud and just cycled off sometimes. I installed the fans linked earlier in this thread, and the amp is very quiet and running for several years without issue. It’s an easy modification.

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post #7252 of 7264 Old 05-24-2020, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post
On my 14k, they seemed to install a thermal switch, in series with the fans that was in contact with the output board heatsink. The fans were still loud and just cycled off sometimes. I installed the fans linked earlier in this thread, and the amp is very quiet and running for several years without issue. It’s an easy modification.
I can second that. I replaced the fans in my XBS FP20K yesterday and the difference was day and night. Replacing the fans is the first to-do imo

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post #7253 of 7264 Old 05-24-2020, 10:23 AM
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On my 14k, they seemed to install a thermal switch, in series with the fans that was in contact with the output board heatsink. The fans were still loud and just cycled off sometimes. I installed the fans linked earlier in this thread, and the amp is very quiet and running for several years without issue. It’s an easy modification.
Thanks, will try to find the post showing which fans.were used.

 

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post #7254 of 7264 Old 05-24-2020, 10:29 AM
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These them? 2 of each I assume. Why is the resister needed for the 60?


80mm fan:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/978-9S0824L401

60mm fan:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/5912-614F

Resistor for 60mm fan:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/280-CR5-390-RC

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #7255 of 7264 Old 05-24-2020, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
The 10Q is rated for quad 2 Ohm. I've run my FP-13000 into 1R full tilt. The output muted after a few ms, DC protection.
I've also run the bridged FP-13000 into two 21DS115 full tilt for a while (2x8R parallel). The drivers only started smelling when I pushed the amp into (current) clipping. The drivers didn't get affected by this, I immediately turned the volume down after the experiment.
I'm running two channels of my 10Q into cabs with an impedance minimum of 2.5R. Handles it fine at max output.

This is the Sanway 10kq right? Not the Sinbosen, just to confirm.

Question, on a Sinbo 20KQ, any issues running a pair of 8 ohm loads excursion limited to 2kw each (4 12” drivers per channel 40-400hz duty) and then a pair of 4ohm loads (HS24s limited at 2000w each)? Whats best config for diving among CHs A-D to ensure power supplies share the load without issues?


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post #7256 of 7264 Old 05-25-2020, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by FOHTech View Post
This is the Sanway 10kq right? Not the Sinbosen, just to confirm.

Question, on a Sinbo 20KQ, any issues running a pair of 8 ohm loads excursion limited to 2kw each (4 12” drivers per channel 40-400hz duty) and then a pair of 4ohm loads (HS24s limited at 2000w each)? Whats best config for diving among CHs A-D to ensure power supplies share the load without issues?


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Yea that was a Sanway.

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post #7257 of 7264 Old 05-25-2020, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by FOHTech View Post
on a Sinbo 20KQ Whats best config for diving among CHs A-D to ensure power supplies share the load without issues?
Put the 24's on CH A & C (or B & D).
Ch A-B is on PS1 and C-D is on PS2.

That will give max RMS to the 24's.

Doing like-subs would give the least bus-pumping however, but the least RMS. (Still more RMS than a single Sanway FP14k or 10k or 20k can do.)
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post #7258 of 7264 Old 05-26-2020, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Put the 24's on CH A & C (or B & D).
Ch A-B is on PS1 and C-D is on PS2.

That will give max RMS to the 24's.

Doing like-subs would give the least bus-pumping however, but the least RMS. (Still more RMS than a single Sanway FP14k or 10k or 20k can do.)

Thanks that was my thought!


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post #7259 of 7264 Old 05-27-2020, 06:46 AM
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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers

Hey guys I’ve got a fp14000 I’ve had for about a year. Up until this point it has performed flawlessly. I’m currently having an issue I could use the communities help with. Basically when it turns on it will turn on and off pretty rapidly for about 10-15 seconds. Then it will stay on and all is fine. Every now and then it will do it again later but has been very rare once it stays on the first time. I’ve taken a video of it and reached out to maker. They believe it’s the voltage regulator components. Here is the video link they sent me. What do you guys think. Do you agree? It’s not the easiest repair but pretty straight forward.

Here is the video link of the repair sent to my by sinbosen .



I’m not sure how to link the video of the issue but if you have the expertise and may be able to help I’m more than happy to email it to you or something.


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Last edited by superkyle; 05-27-2020 at 07:50 AM.
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post #7260 of 7264 Old 05-27-2020, 03:29 PM
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I can second that. I replaced the fans in my XBS FP20K yesterday and the difference was day and night. Replacing the fans is the first to-do imo

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@storm028 what fans did you use?
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