Comparing dual LMSR 15 to a single LMSR Ultra. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 23 Old 02-08-2012, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I'm getting tired of setting on the fence waiting for the driver vendors to work through all of their respective challenges. I sold my Mael-X 18s in Sept 2011 with the intent of upgrading to Mael-X 21s. I was unaware of the challenges Kevin was facing with his build house, and blindly sold the 18s.

My bad, lesson learned.

I've been without bass since, and I'm not going to wait much longer. I suspect I'll make a move this month.

I'm strongly leaning in the TC Sounds direction and I've been modeling the following:

2ea. 2 LMSR 15s in dual opposed 4 cubes with 4800 watts.
2ea. 1 LMS Ultra in 4 cubes with 2400 watts.

I would start out with the units at the mid-point of my side walls, and next year add another pair so all 4 walls are happy.

4 LMSR 15s are cheaper than 2 LMS Ultras and the SPL difference below 20Hz favors the 15s by some ~2dB.

So, what would you guys do?

Larry
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post #2 of 23 Old 02-08-2012, 09:57 PM
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Out of those choices, two ultras, you can always add more later if that isn't enough
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post #3 of 23 Old 02-08-2012, 10:47 PM
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Both are very good options and more alike than different.

What's your gut telling you to do? It would be awfully tempting to join the 'Ultra's' club.
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post #4 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 01:56 AM
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not to complicate things, but have a look at the jbl w15gti. $300 delivered from the jungle.

low distortion, low inductance, and $ for $ several db more sensitive than the ultras, so you can get the same spl with much less amplification.


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post #5 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 02:36 AM
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How big of a box for the JBL W15? With the Dual 6 Ohms, how would you wire it?
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post #6 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 02:49 AM
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"How big of a box for the JBL W15?"

3-4 cubic feet per box.

"With the Dual 6 Ohms, how would you wire it?"

that depends on how many you have and what your amp can handle.

one configuration would be 3 drivers, with each driver wired in series for 12 ohms per driver. all three boxes in parallel then gives 4 ohms net.

of course, there are countless other configurations, but this would be a good one for a 2000 watt amp such as the ep2500/4000.

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post #7 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 02:57 AM
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Keep in mind low frequency response is going to be more influenced by displacement than sensitivity. The JBL only has 20mm of xmax, and they're using response at a higher frequency to generate their sensitivity ratings. The LMS has 29mm of xmax. That's a big difference.

As for LMS 15 vs LMS Ultra, the Vd of the ultra is 4.55l, while the 15 is 2.51l. The dual 15s will have an edge in displacement over a single 18 by about 10%. You can also make dual opposed boxes this way as well. So if it comes down to 4x15 vs 2x18, my vote is for the 4x15 setup.
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post #8 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 03:20 AM
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"Keep in mind low frequency response is going to be more influenced by displacement than sensitivity. The JBL only has 20mm of xmax, and they're using response at a higher frequency to generate their sensitivity ratings. The LMS has 29mm of xmax. That's a big difference."

attached is the response of three $ for $ setups. all use 10 cubic feet. 1x ultra. 2x lmsr. 3x w15gti. all around $900.

i was talking about the sensitivity differences between the 3x w15 and 1x ultra. i wouldn't buy an lms-r unless it is to be run under 50hz.

sensitivity and maximum spl of these systems around 20hz is pretty much the same, which confirms 'not's comment.

for sensitivity, i was talking about the 40-80hz octave, where the jbl setup is almost 6db more sensitive than the ultra. if you want to talk 10hz, the ultra actually pulls ahead.
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post #9 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 06:32 AM
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I imagined he might have had some space or size limits so I figured you were talking about comparing the 15s woofer to woofer, instead of 3 to 2. That makes more sense then. I'd probably go with the LMS drivers due to the higher xmax, and if down the road he wants to add another pair of LMS, he has even more headroom.

I'm a sucker for TC drivers. Can you post a plot showing max spl and excursion?
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post #10 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 09:43 AM
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"Can you post a plot showing max spl and excursion?"

max spl is a little tricky because it depends on how much power they can really take. i would call them pretty much comparable below 30hz.

excursion is with 2000 watts.

again, each package is roughly $900 worth of drivers, 1x ultra, 2x lmsr, 3x w15gti.

edit: added 3rd pic with the spl at 2000w into each setup.
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post #11 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Keep in mind low frequency response is going to be more influenced by displacement than sensitivity. The JBL only has 20mm of xmax, and they're using response at a higher frequency to generate their sensitivity ratings. The LMS has 29mm of xmax. That's a big difference."

attached is the response of three $ for $ setups. all use 10 cubic feet. 1x ultra. 2x lmsr. 3x w15gti. all around $900.

i was talking about the sensitivity differences between the 3x w15 and 1x ultra. i wouldn't buy an lms-r unless it is to be run under 50hz.

sensitivity and maximum spl of these systems around 20hz is pretty much the same, which confirms 'not's comment.

for sensitivity, i was talking about the 40-80hz octave, where the jbl setup is almost 6db more sensitive than the ultra. if you want to talk 10hz, the ultra actually pulls ahead.

When u say u would'nt buy a lms-r, unless it is to be ran under 50hz , what do u mean, why ??
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post #12 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 09:55 AM
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"When u say u would'nt buy a lms-r, unless it is to be ran under 50hz , what do u mean, why ??"

that will start a war that may destroy the thread, so if you want to discuss it, please start a new thread.

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post #13 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

When u say u would'nt buy a lms-r, unless it is to be ran under 50hz , what do u mean, why ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"When u say u would'nt buy a lms-r, unless it is to be ran under 50hz , what do u mean, why ??"

that will start a war that may destroy the thread, so if you want to discuss it, please start a new thread.

Hehheh. I know why!

Food for thought, John... check out these new tests Josh has done with the LMSR12 in a sealed box. Pretty smooth top end with little Le hump. I'd wager that the 15 is similar but with more displacement. Obviously.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=44&mset=41
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post #14 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 11:44 AM
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The 15" LMSR's aught to be pretty bad arse. I disagree with LTD02. The LMSR's are only about 4dB down by 150Hz and it is a very gentle roll off. I have used them run up almost that high and it was perfectly fine. I also don't want to get into that discussion...Xmech on those is almost 40mm. They are very quiet till almost 2" p2p. Also they will eat a ton of power because the coils are huge. They are not going to win any mid bass efficiency contests though no doubt about that.

Nothing wrong with the W15Gti either from what I've seen but don't they usually go for $350ea? Where can I get a new one for $300?

If you look at what the single LMSR 12" did in a sealed enclosure it is pretty ridiculous for 1 12".
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post #15 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 12:10 PM
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ricci and i agree to disagree, but his experience is much more than mine so consider that.

as for a source, josh, http://www.amazon.com/W15GTIMKII-quo.../dp/B002NBYNM0

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post #16 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the solid input guys.

Emotionally, I'm leaning towards the Ultra for now other reason than the big arse cone; however, ultimately I want a cabinet at the mid-point of all four walls. So, next year that would be 4 Ultras, or 8 LMSRs.

I'm thinking when we're talking about multiples to this scale the LMSRs would be the better choice, but I'm sure there isn't an easy answer.

These will be crossed-over to Danley SH-50s @ 60-80Hz operating within a dedicated ~2000 cube room.

Larry
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post #17 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 12:44 PM
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In a conversation I had with Thilo he recommended dual LMS-R 15's over a single LMS Ultra. His comment was something like "less money, more displacement, a no brainer". Modeling them up anyone would have to agree, the dual 15's make more sense for less money than a single 18.

With all that sense I still went the LMS Ultra route The engineering on the Ultra is soooo dam nice, I couldn't help my-self. The Ultra's are gone now though and I am thinking about trying 4 or more LMS-R 15's in dual opposed configuration's, it does make more sense.
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post #18 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

In a conversation I had with Thilo he recommended dual LMS-R 15's over a single LMS Ultra. His comment was something like "less money, more displacement, a no brainer". Modeling them up anyone would have to agree, the dual 15's make more sense for less money than a single 18.

With all that sense I still went the LMS Ultra route The engineering on the Ultra is soooo dam nice, I couldn't help my-self. The Ultra's are gone now though and I am thinking about trying 4 or more LMS-R 15's in dual opposed configuration's, it does make more sense.

That's pretty much what I said =] However, you could always order as many 18s as you would 15s, then there's an advantage =]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Can you post a plot showing max spl and excursion?"

max spl is a little tricky because it depends on how much power they can really take. i would call them pretty much comparable below 30hz.

excursion is with 2000 watts.

again, each package is roughly $900 worth of drivers, 1x ultra, 2x lmsr, 3x w15gti.

edit: added 3rd pic with the spl at 2000w into each setup.

Even with 3 drivers, they GTI's at xmax at 20hz there, and too close from 30hz down? That doesn't look too good =]
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post #19 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 03:42 PM
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"Even with 3 drivers, they GTI's at xmax at 20hz there, and too close from 30hz down? That doesn't look too good =]"

no worries. if all you want are air pumps, then don't waste your money on stacks of magnets, shorting rings, split coils, or any of the other stuff that makes these drives relatively expensive...simply find the weakest motor with the largest xmax, put it in a huge box and let her rip.

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post #20 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Even with 3 drivers, they GTI's at xmax at 20hz there, and too close from 30hz down? That doesn't look too good =]"

no worries. if all you want are air pumps, then don't waste your money on stacks of magnets, shorting rings, split coils, or any of the other stuff that makes these drives relatively expensive...simply find the weakest motor with the largest xmax, put it in a huge box and let her rip.

Sorry, not KW here.

Drivers operating close to xmax never really sound good.

Also, LMSR15 bl is 21, the GTI 15 bl is 15. What are you trying to say here? I'm not quite following along as two LMSR 15s look to have better low end than the 3 GTI 15s. Your reply doesn't make any sense, as I was arguing for the more expensive driver out of the 15s.
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post #21 of 23 Old 02-09-2012, 05:09 PM
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"Sorry, not KW here."

well, something has gone wrong in the communication if we are questioning if you and kw have similar perspectives. that is beyond absurd.

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post #22 of 23 Old 02-27-2012, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, a pair of Ultras just landed in my shopping cart; don't quite know how this happened

Larry
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post #23 of 23 Old 02-27-2012, 03:02 PM
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No way!



Have fun with those badboys.
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