Wayne Parham's H290C waveguide measurements - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 196 Old 08-02-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Thanks for the clarification guys. Now my next, and most important question is:
I am building a pair of Klipsch based Corn-Scala's but am not using any Klipsch drivers or horns, instead I will be using the B&C DE750TN with Dave Harris' Eliptrack 400 horn. How do you guys think that combo would compare to Waynes horns and what ever drivers folks have been using with his? Speaking of which, what drivers have you guys been using with Waynes waveguides? Is the B&C DE750TN a pretty good driver? What would be considered a step up from the DE750TN?




Forget the Cornscalas and build a pair of SEOS 12 for 1/3 the price.

This is from some one that sold off of all his Klipsch speakers.
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post #32 of 196 Old 08-02-2012, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Aknot5 View Post

How does this performance compare to SEOS?

How does this compare to the H290 horn it replaced? What would replacing this for the h290 benefit you in a 4pi?

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post #33 of 196 Old 08-02-2012, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GoCaboNow View Post

How does this compare to the H290 horn it replaced? What would replacing this for the h290 benefit you in a 4pi?

I asked Wayne similar question some time ago, specifically if there is any audible difference between the two.

He replied that the Eminence was a "darn good horn" though by a " happy accident" and that the new H290C is a "perfect catenary flare".
Yet he did not say it sounds better or even different, which leads me to believe that there is probably little benefit in upgrading.
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post #34 of 196 Old 08-02-2012, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I asked Wayne similar question some time ago, specifically if there is any audible difference between the two.
He replied that the Eminence was a "darn good horn" though by a " happy accident" and that the new H290C is a "perfect catenary flare".
Yet he did not say it sounds better or even different, which leads me to believe that there is probably little benefit in upgrading.

I was looking on his site and I could not find any comparison between the two. Thanks for that.

Shoot, I might swap these into my 4pi's just so I can say they have a "perfect catenary flare". I know that will impress the Mrs. Cabo...tongue.gif

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post #35 of 196 Old 08-02-2012, 06:13 PM
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I'm in the same boat. I asked Wayne about audible differences here: http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=17246&start=0&
It seems like e biggest difference is the mouth radius and pure Cantenary flare. Wayne did not say anything about audible differences, so I'm still on the fence on upgrading. My 4Pis sound great and I couldn't imagine them sounding better, but if they will, I'm all for it.
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post #36 of 196 Old 08-05-2012, 05:41 PM
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if memory serves, the h290 was a bi-radial horn.

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post #37 of 196 Old 08-06-2012, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

if memory serves, the h290 was a bi-radial horn.

Im really green on waveguide profiles and how they affect sound. Can you expand further on the audible differences between a biradial horn and catenary flare?
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post #38 of 196 Old 08-06-2012, 07:41 PM
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"Can you expand further on the audible differences between a biradial horn and catenary flare?"

i kind of doubt that if you do everything else right, that there would be a significant difference between the two, as they are pretty close in form and function. the bi-radial might not hold pattern control quite as well, but that might not matter.

some of the other things to consider are: the throat to c.d. angle match, the flare angles, the size of the roundover, the size of the horn, and the material/damping of the horn.

jbl worked on the problem for a while and ended up with this:


several forum members worked on a project and ended up with this (the seos waveguide):


as can be found here: https://www.avsforum.com/t/1291022/hey-guys-we-need-a-little-rallying-here

wayne went with this:


they all appear to perform well, so you really can't go wrong with any of them.

if i had to choose, i'd go with the seos, then the jbl, then the catenary from wayne, but that is just me.

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post #39 of 196 Old 08-06-2012, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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LTD,
What do you make of the directivity diagrams for SEOS12 on
http://www.horns.pl/seos12.html?
It does show close to 120 degrees horizontal coverage. This is in marked contrast to the measurements bwaslo made.
What could account for the difference?
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post #40 of 196 Old 08-06-2012, 08:28 PM
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mislabeling of the angle axis? Weve measured a lot of seos, they are 90 degree waveguides. Heck, you can see by the angle beween the walls that it's no wider

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post #41 of 196 Old 08-06-2012, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

mislabeling of the angle axis? Weve measured a lot of seos, they are 90 degree waveguides. Heck, you can see by the angle beween the walls that it's no wider
mislabeling would certainly explain it.
Can there be other explanations? e.g. the driver used.Or whether or not it was mounted on a baffle? I know yours were not. I suspect this should've made the dispersion pattern wider though.

Is not it true that not all 90 degree horns can maintain 90 degree directivity ? specifically narrow shallow horns may have wider effective beam width. please correct me if I am wrong about it.

just to clarify, I do not doubt validity of your measurements at all. I am just trying to learn.

thank you
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post #42 of 196 Old 08-06-2012, 09:04 PM
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hi zheka,

this one tied my head in knot for a while. after looking at it for quite a bit of time, i think what happened is the levels in the auto-tech sonogram were mis-labled and confused everybody.

take for example 1khz in the frequency response plot. the frequency response shows 10 degree increments.

count down the number of lines from the on-axis response. in between the 4th and 5th line is 45 degrees off axis. check the spl. -6db from the on-axis. right where it should be.

now, go over to the sonogram and match up 45 degrees and 1khz. it is showing only -3db or so at 1khz.

it is late and i am tired, but i think this resolves the discrepancy. in my estimation, bwaslo's sonogram is accurate.

edit: aw shucks, bwaslo beat me to the punch. :-)

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post #43 of 196 Old 08-06-2012, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

hi zheka,
this one tied my head in knot for a while. after looking at it for quite a bit of time, i think what happened is the levels in the auto-tech sonogram were mis-labled and confused everybody.
take for example 1khz in the frequency response plot. the frequency response shows 10 degree increments.
count down the number of lines from the on-axis response. in between the 4th and 5th line is 45 degrees off axis. check the spl. -6db from the on-axis. right where it should be.
now, go over to the sonogram and match up 45 degrees and 1khz. it is showing only -3db or so at 1khz.
it is late and i am tired, but i think this resolves the discrepancy. in my estimation, bwaslo's sonogram is accurate.
edit: aw shucks, bwaslo beat me to the punch. :-)

I think you are correct. the FR diagram and the sonogram do not match. the FR seems more in line w/ waslo's results.

thank you!
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post #44 of 196 Old 08-07-2012, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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actually I may have misread the FR diagram



there are 10 curves total - one on-axis (blue) and 9 off-axis
supposedly 10 degrees apart.

It is hard to count curves from the top because 0 degrees and 10 degrees are too close together.
it is easier to see, however, if you count from the 90 degree curve up. The -6db point at 1kHz falls between 60 and 50 degree curves. Which seems consistent with the sonogram.
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post #45 of 196 Old 08-07-2012, 11:42 PM
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agree. those results match bwaslo's that i linked to in the first post on the "rallying" thread.

looks like a 100 degree waveguide or so. that is just fine and allows for a slightly lower crossover point. this is really splitting hairs though.

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post #46 of 196 Old 08-08-2012, 06:39 AM
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I'm not even sure that's a real measurement. I believe the guys at Autotech have a program that can give possible results based on the inputs they give.

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post #47 of 196 Old 08-08-2012, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I'm not even sure that's a real measurement. I believe the guys at Autotech have a program that can give possible results based on the inputs they give.

These look like ARTA charts to me. I think that's what jzagaja is using for measurements.
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post #48 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 03:34 AM
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zheka. good eye. "counting from the bottom", they match up with bwaslo's off axis measurements, roughly, in the first post of this thread. but like i said, depending on the frequency where you want to "call it", the seos appears to be around a 100hz waveguide or a smidge more. 90 or 100 deg is insignificant relative to the pattern control, roundover, diffraction-free throat, and all the rest of it is much more important than a hair more or less of off axis spl. heck geddes runs 60's in his summa (and we don't need to rehash the c-c distance problem of those) and the 18sounds 120's were producing great results, but they were just too small to hold pattern control low enough for anything but smallish bookshelves.

the seos12 nails the sweet spot for a waveguide in a home setting--it has among the best pattern control that i have seen and is just big enough to control low enough that a 15" can match it (anything smaller works too). it looks great. it is built like a tank, and it can be had for a song.

i am an online friend of wayne, so i am not going to put his stuff down. his horn looks much like a downsized qsc that kicked off this whole thread and i wouldn't have started the thread if it was mediocre. wayne isn't going to offer a lame component in his systems, so if you go with his, you won't be dissappointed.

each person is free to choose theirs. given what i've seen, i'd choose the seos12, but that is just me and if others choose wayne's or any other for that matter, that's cool.

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post #49 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 07:33 AM
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One thing I have to get done is list all the other sizes that were made out of the concrete resin so people can order them as well. I'll have to dig up the measurements on all the different sizes. I know I had the 15 uploaded already:

seos15_horizontal.jpg

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post #50 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

zheka. good eye. "counting from the bottom", they match up with bwaslo's off axis measurements, roughly, in the first post of this thread. but like i said, depending on the frequency where you want to "call it", the seos appears to be around a 100hz waveguide or a smidge more. 90 or 100 deg is insignificant relative to the pattern control, roundover, diffraction-free throat, and all the rest of it is much more important than a hair more or less of off axis spl. heck geddes runs 60's in his summa (and we don't need to rehash the c-c distance problem of those) and the 18sounds 120's were producing great results, but they were just too small to hold pattern control low enough for anything but smallish bookshelves.
the seos12 nails the sweet spot for a waveguide in a home setting--it has among the best pattern control that i have seen and is just big enough to control low enough that a 15" can match it (anything smaller works too). it looks great. it is built like a tank, and it can be had for a song.
i am an online friend of wayne, so i am not going to put his stuff down. his horn looks much like a downsized qsc that kicked off this whole thread and i wouldn't have started the thread if it was mediocre. wayne isn't going to offer a lame component in his systems, so if you go with his, you won't be dissappointed.
each person is free to choose theirs. given what i've seen, i'd choose the seos12, but that is just me and if others choose wayne's or any other for that matter, that's cool.


I am settled on the four Pi design for my build. Seeing how well Wayne's wave guide measured made my decision easier. Even though I've been strongly leaning towards the Pi because it is a proven, mature, highly regarded design - a must for the noob like me, I was told - and because I already invested in 2226H drivers, I always assumed that SEOS is the better waveguide. This apparently is not the case, at least when measurements are concerned.

So what's left?

SEOS is arguably better looking. It is not important to me, especially if it comes at cost of performance.

SEOS is cheaper. To me $20 price difference is not the deciding factor. I do not mind paying a little extra for the peace of mind. This will be the most I ever spent on speakers, I plan to use them for long time.
Edit: the above is indeed poorly worded. I can see how it can be read as a put down of the other horn. To clarify, the "peace of mind", to me, is offered by the four Pi design itself, time tested and by all accounts excellent. The fact that h290c measured so well simply removed whatever remaining doubts I could have.

Wayne's been refining his controlled directivity designs for long time. He offers outstanding support for DIYers on his forum. The cost for my build is comparable with what it would have cost me had I waited for a SEOS12/2226H design.

I am confident I made the right choice.
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post #51 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd like to offer one possible explanation as to why jzagaja's measurements show wider horizontal dispersion.

It turns out that he measured from 1 meter as opposed to 2 meters in bwaslo measurements. The logic is that the further off-axis the signal is the higher the rate of decay.
Jacek was kind enough to BEM model the likely response difference for 0.5 meter vs 5 meter distance

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post #52 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I am settled on the four Pi design for my build. Seeing how well Wayne's wave guide measured made my decision easier. Even though I've been strongly leaning towards the Pi because it is a proven, mature, highly regarded design - a must for the noob like me, I was told - and because I already invested in 2226H drivers, I always assumed that SEOS is the better waveguide. This apparently is not the case, at least when measurements are concerned.
So what's left?
SEOS is arguably better looking. It is not important to me, especially if it comes at cost of performance.
SEOS is cheaper. To me $20 price difference is not the deciding factor. I do not mind paying a little extra for the peace of mind. This will be the most I ever spent on speakers, I plan to use them for long time.
Wayne's been refining his controlled directivity designs for long time. He offers outstanding support for DIYers on his forum. The cost for my build is comparable with what it would have cost me had I waited for a SEOS12/2226H design.
I am confident I made the right choice.



I am sure you will be happy with the 4pi.

Put up a build thread when you're ready. We love to see speakers/subs being built around here. biggrin.gif
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post #53 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I am settled on the four Pi design for my build. Seeing how well Wayne's wave guide measured made my decision easier. Even though I've been strongly leaning towards the Pi because it is a proven, mature, highly regarded design - a must for the noob like me, I was told - and because I already invested in 2226H drivers, I always assumed that SEOS is the better waveguide. This apparently is not the case, at least when measurements are concerned.
So what's left?
SEOS is arguably better looking. It is not important to me, especially if it comes at cost of performance.
SEOS is cheaper. To me $20 price difference is not the deciding factor. I do not mind paying a little extra for the peace of mind. This will be the most I ever spent on speakers, I plan to use them for long time.
Wayne's been refining his controlled directivity designs for long time. He offers outstanding support for DIYers on his forum. The cost for my build is comparable with what it would have cost me had I waited for a SEOS12/2226H design.
I am confident I made the right choice.


You sound like you're trying to justify your purchase by putting down the one you didn't wait for. Enjoy your speakers, they're going to be great either way. But why put down the other by constantly trying to push back against everything that's posted? From the beginning ,the whole thread sounded like you were trying to talk yourself into *not* to get the SEOS by coming up with some idea against it, even if it wasn't correct.

How do you know the cost for the SEOS and the JBL 2226H will be comparable when it's not actually done yet?


If you're confident in your purchase, right or wrong, we're all happy about that. But your glowing comments for 'X' are a bit strange from a self proclaimed "noob" with an "untrained eye" less than 2 weeks ago. You've come a long way my friend! wink.gif

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post #54 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 06:11 PM
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"I am settled on the four Pi design for my build."

great.

do you know if he has redone the crossover with the new horn? it used to be 3rd order split at 1.3khz and 1.6khz.

for the seos12/2226, i suspect we will be looking for a crossover point half an octave lower.

it is generally better to get as much of the sound in the horn as possible, so long as you don't over stress the compression driver.

as for how much a few extra degrees matters, here is a picture to illustrate. speaker placed in corner. aimed to cross just in front of audience. the listeners don't have to worry about "first reflections" from the close wall in either case and first reflections from the opposite wall will be quite similar. that is why i said it doesn't matter.

edit: after looking at the picture again, ironically, the slightly wider horn may offer slightly better coverage, i.e. more uniform spl across the listening area, but in practice i doubt that you would be able to tell any difference based on that effect.


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post #55 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post


You sound like you're trying to justify your purchase by putting down the one you didn't wait for. Enjoy your speakers, they're going to be great either way. But why put down the other by constantly trying to push back against everything that's posted?
I am sorry if it came out this way, it certainly was not my intend. I re-read my post and crossed out the part that could possibly be interpreted this way.
If my intent was lost let me state it explicitly: I was listing my reasons for going with Pi in reply to LTD's reasons for SEOS.
Quote:
From the beginning ,the whole thread sounded like you were trying to talk yourself into *not* to get the SEOS by coming up with some idea against it, even if it wasn't correct.
This was not meant as a SEOS thread at all. I simply shared what seemed like an overlooked news from another forum. I maybe wrong but i think it was you who brought SEOS into the conversation.
I am not sure what mistakes I have to admit to. What is it that I got wrong?
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How do you know the cost for the SEOS and the JBL 2226H will be comparable when it's not actually done yet?
Assembled crossover $125 ( approx $30 mark up frm the cost of parts, more than modest IMHO)
Horn $50
Cabinets assembled $100

I am using denovo cd (thank you wink.gif ) which is a big cost equalizer.

you tell me how much less expensive can yours be?
Quote:

If you're confident in your purchase, right or wrong, we're all happy about that. But your glowing comments for 'X' are a bit strange from a self proclaimed "noob" with an "untrained eye" less than 2 weeks ago. You've come a long way my friend! wink.gif

I am a self admitted noob. I am trying to learn though. So please do not hesitate to set me straight when you see I am out of my depth.
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post #56 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I am settled on the four Pi design for my build."
great.
do you know if he has redone the crossover with the new horn? it used to be 3rd order split at 1.3khz and 1.6khz.
i have no idea.
Quote:
for the seos12/2226, i suspect we will be looking for a crossover point half an octave lower.
it is generally better to get as much of the sound in the horn as possible, so long as you don't over stress the compression driver.

When you say "we" who exactly do you mean?
Quote:
as for how much a few extra degrees matters, here is a picture to illustrate. speaker placed in corner. aimed to cross just in front of audience. the listeners don't have to worry about "first reflections" from the close wall in either case and first reflections from the opposite wall will be quite similar. that is why i said it doesn't matter.
edit: after looking at the picture again, ironically, the slightly wider horn may offer slightly better coverage, i.e. more uniform spl across the listening area, but in practice i doubt that you would be able to tell any difference based on that effect.

I totally buy your argument. It is splitting hairs. However to help me make my decision all I needed is a validation that h290c is not worse than SEOS12. And from what I learned so far it is clearly not.
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post #57 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

I am sure you will be happy with the 4pi.
Put up a build thread when you're ready. We love to see speakers/subs being built around here. biggrin.gif
Thank you smile.gif
It may prove a boring thread though. It would certainly be more of a AIY (assemble it yourself) kind of deal.
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post #58 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 08:28 PM
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I always assumed that SEOS is the better waveguide. This apparently is not the case, at least when measurements are concerned.

Sure, if that's what you want to tell yourself. Of course, using the same fundamental analysis, a 4 Pi is just as good as (or better than) a Gedlee Summa.
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I totally buy your argument. It is splitting hairs. However to help me make my decision all I needed is a validation that h290c is not worse than SEOS12. And from what I learned so far it is clearly not.

Just looking at the profiles, it seems to me that the deeper/sharper H290 would have more presence of HOMs than the SEOS, IOW group delay, which becomes increasingly audible at higher SPLs. I would be expecting the SEOS to have cleaner highs in the ~3.5khz - 8khz frequency range. Especially a custom SEOS crossover design optimized for reticulated foam, which I am just itching to do. The shallower SEOS probably provides less horn-loading though, and so might have (IMO insignificantly) less nonlinear distortion.
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post #59 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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now this is clearly out of my depth.
i'll use the opportunity to ask a question I could not find a google answer to .This HOM thing, is there a way to measure it or not?
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post #60 of 196 Old 08-09-2012, 09:14 PM
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"This HOM thing, is there a way to measure it or not?"

to the best of my knowledge, we don't have a measure for it yet. that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist of course.

you are going to be happy with your 4pi's. don't worry about all the conversations... :-)

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