How to extend the high pass filter below 20hz in DCX2496 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 214 Old 03-22-2013, 03:24 PM
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I would suggest that anyone attempting these types of filters and depending on them to keep their equipment safe should measure and verify that the settings are producing the expected result. I have attempted a lot of this sort of thing and have noted that once you start combining multiple DSP effects there can sometimes be unexpected response artifacts that are not expected. Sometimes as much as a one decimal place change in one parameter can cause them. Good luck out there.


Here is a HPF filter with the DCX that is approximately a 24dB octave BW HPF at 13.5Hz. I use this for my Gjallarhorns and DTS-10's when I had them.

This is the DCX settings for it...

24dB octave BW HPF at 20Hz
24Hz 12dB HP Shelf filter -15dB
20Hz 12dB LP Shelf filter +1.5dB
21.5Hz BP filter Q of 2.0 -1.8dB

I could not get anything to be much lower effectively without burning through a lot of EQ bands and getting much more complicated. This one is actually -3dB at 13.5Hz (Note the scale used is only 1dB a division.) so it is rather low with few EQ bands used.


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post #32 of 214 Old 03-22-2013, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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ricci,

not sure, but i think this might work too:

24dB/oct LR HPF at 20Hz
20Hz 12dB/oct HP Shelf filter -12dB
20Hz 12dB/oct HP Shelf filter -12dB

i think that gives the same result as a 4th order linkwitz riley high pass at 10hz.

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post #33 of 214 Old 04-05-2013, 03:57 PM
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Well, I have to give Kudos to LTD02 for this idea!



The above graph is a measurement from my two 11Hz LLT subwoofers. One sweep is with no filters, one is with the HP+HS filter enabled. The DSP is the DSP integrated into my Behringer iNuke3000DSP.

Settings:

Input gain: +3db
High Pass: 20Hz, Butterworth 12db/oct
High Shelf: 20Hz -12db gain 12db/oct.

Verified through testing. It's not just theory any longer.
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post #34 of 214 Old 07-16-2013, 02:54 AM
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LTD,

I know there was an in depth post you made about making HPF's, but did we go into detail on how to use the PEQ under 20hz? (Inuke3000dsp)
Is it limited to only using negative shelf filters to boost under 20hz?

For example, apply the negative boost below 20hz so that you get a gradual rise in FR to match the gradual rolloff of a sealed cab.
Would that just be a high self with negative gain like listed above (High Shelf: 20Hz -12db gain 12db/oct.) but without the other two EQ bands?

Or is there a work-around to target specific frequencies below 20hz?
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post #35 of 214 Old 07-16-2013, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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"For example, apply the negative boost below 20hz
so that you get a gradual rise in FR to match the
gradual rolloff of a sealed cab.
Would that just be a high self with negative gain
like listed above (High Shelf: 20Hz -12db gain
12db/oct.) but without the other two EQ bands?"

correct. but remember that your room will likely provide
some pressure vessel gain which will partially offset the
natural rolloff of sealed subs.

the key idea is that the filters extend below the 20hz
point. the 20hz point is only the limit of where the
"corner" of the shelf filter is limited to, so you can
push most of the filter under 20hz with the "high
shelf with negative gain" approach. for a peq, it is
much more difficult because peq filters are specified
by the "center" of the filter, so only half the filter
can be pushed below 20hz. as ricci pointed out, it is
possible with peq to creates effects less than 20hz,
but it seems easier with the shelf filter approach.

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post #36 of 214 Old 07-17-2013, 05:35 AM
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Ohhh sweet, I get it, thanks.
That means that even if you could use PEQ, it wouldn't really do anything because you'd be stuck at the 'center" of each frequency.
And that center would be limited to 20hz (a wide Q to stretch it further at best). Definitely seems more difficult and less useful.

What's awesome is I know I can at least get a extended FR below 20hz using this method..... meaning I don't have to get a MiniDSP in the signal chain, at least for now.

How does this sound....
2x ftw-21's in 5-6 cuft sealed cabs, either with 2x inuke3000's bridged, or a 6000 for the pair, and negative shelf filters on both (if necessary) to bring up the low end. PEQ to smooth the high end.
The only thing left is for the pre-orders to ship!
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post #37 of 214 Old 07-20-2013, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

this instructions tell how to create curves in WinISD that resemble shapes of the shelf filters in Behringer products. But I do not see how they can be used for actual modeling because they mirror the corresponding shelf filters. e.g. the curve that has a shape of the negative HSF in Behringer is actually a positive LSF. you cannot use to model excursion or SPL for example.
I came across the approach recently and have this question. I don't see a way to assign positive or negative gain to a filter so it doesn't seem possible to use this for modelling. Am I missing something? if so, what?
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post #38 of 214 Old 07-20-2013, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
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thats', you got it.


3ll, if you model a shelf filter using the
linkwitz transform in winisd, just switch
the frequencies to go from a low shelf
to a high shelf.

a high shelf with negative gain is the same
shape as a low shelf with positive gain, so
in winisd, you don't have to worry about
specifying that.

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post #39 of 214 Old 07-21-2013, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

thats', you got it.


3ll, if you model a shelf filter using the
linkwitz transform in winisd, just switch
the frequencies to go from a low shelf
to a high shelf.

a high shelf with negative gain is the same
shape as a low shelf with positive gain, so
in winisd, you don't have to worry about
specifying that.
OK thanks. I get that bit but doesn't the actual amount of gain applied to each filter matter? for instance, earlier in the thread it was suggested to use the following combination;

* -12dB high shelf at 20Hz
* 20Hz HPF
* +12dB low shelf at 200Hz

in order to get the benefit of the 10Hz HPF while counteracting the general cut higher up the frequency range. If I add filters to model that in winisd then I just get up blowing cone excursion through the roof because it is not aware that I am cutting/boosting (hence should end up flat). Is it enough to just apply a "static gain" of -12dB to balance it out?
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post #40 of 214 Old 12-21-2013, 09:17 PM
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Does anyone know how to add the shelving filter half with the -12db gain via the onboard controls?

I don't have a USB to serial converter handy so I can't connect to it.

I can't seem to get the shelving option in any of the screens. mad.gif

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post #41 of 214 Old 12-22-2013, 05:49 AM
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When dealing with these common outboard EQ components, such as the DCX2496, and MiniDsp, as well as the iNukedsp series of amps, what does the Q setting on these devices mean? I know about Qts, Qtc, Q ect...when it comes to designing and modeling subwoofers, but I am not sure what this "Q" means in the iNukedsp or the MiniDsp outboard EQ+Crossover components. So what does this "Q" mean?
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post #42 of 214 Old 12-22-2013, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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it is a strange one marty, but generally has to do with how narrow and pointy the filter (or a resonance) is vs. how wide it is. high q is sharp and pointy. low q is broad and wide.

a search on "q factor" or "quality factor" might pull up some details.

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post #43 of 214 Old 12-22-2013, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Does anyone know how to add the shelving filter half with the -12db gain via the onboard controls?

I can't seem to get the shelving option in any of the screens. mad.gif

Anyone care to try this please?

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post #44 of 214 Old 12-22-2013, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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post #45 of 214 Old 12-22-2013, 10:49 AM
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A little, thanks John...as always!smile.gif

Yes, I did see those options. I am guessing I need the LP with the negative gain.

I will try that and see what happens.

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post #46 of 214 Old 12-22-2013, 02:47 PM
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Yep, that did the trick. I think I have it down now. smile.gif

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post #47 of 214 Old 12-22-2013, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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just be careful. better safe than sorry. if it isn't clear from the front panel how to set it up. just plop a 20hz high pass on there until the cable can be acquired.

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post #48 of 214 Old 12-22-2013, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

just be careful. better safe than sorry. if it isn't clear from the front panel how to set it up. just plop a 20hz high pass on there until the cable can be acquired.

Agreed. I applied an 18db Butterworth high pass at 20 and then added a 6db low pass shelving filter at 20 as well. It seems to do the trick, effectively shifting the corner lower.
I don't want to get much more radical than that until I can do more testing.

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post #49 of 214 Old 12-23-2013, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Agreed. I applied an 18db Butterworth high pass at 20 and then added a 6db low pass shelving filter at 20 as well. It seems to do the trick, effectively shifting the corner lower.
I don't want to get much more radical than that until I can do more testing.

I have been searching for information, in laymens terms, as to what a low pass shelving filer actually is or does? From what u have found, it is a type of filter that creates a shelf like look in the frequency response that only allows certain frequencies in a certain range pass through, both upper, and lower.

Is this a correct understanding that I have? If so, how can this be of any use in subwoofers, especially subwoofers that already have a high pass filter? It would seem that if you created a low pass shelf filter at 20h, that nothing above or below would go through the filter? What am I missing here??
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post #50 of 214 Old 12-23-2013, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I have been searching for information, in laymens terms, as to what a low pass shelving filer actually is or does? From what u have found, it is a type of filter that creates a shelf like look in the frequency response that only allows certain frequencies in a certain range pass through, both upper, and lower.

Is this a correct understanding that I have? If so, how can this be of any use in subwoofers, especially subwoofers that already have a high pass filter? It would seem that if you created a low pass shelf filter at 20h, that nothing above or below would go through the filter? What am I missing here??

You are largely correct.

However, multiple filters can be applied that overlap and contradict. So, in this case; you could apply the 20Hz HPF as you mentioned but really want a 15Hz highpass. You would then need to apply the reverse shelving filter which then combines with the first to result in a similar curve but shifted downward resulting in a ~15hz HPF that would otherwise not be possible.

Check the graphs on the first page for the illustration.

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post #51 of 214 Old 12-23-2013, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I would suggest that anyone attempting these types of filters and depending on them to keep their equipment safe should measure and verify that the settings are producing the expected result. I have attempted a lot of this sort of thing and have noted that once you start combining multiple DSP effects there can sometimes be unexpected response artifacts that are not expected. Sometimes as much as a one decimal place change in one parameter can cause them. Good luck out there.


Here is a HPF filter with the DCX that is approximately a 24dB octave BW HPF at 13.5Hz. I use this for my Gjallarhorns and DTS-10's when I had them.

This is the DCX settings for it...

24dB octave BW HPF at 20Hz
24Hz 12dB HP Shelf filter -15dB
20Hz 12dB LP Shelf filter +1.5dB
21.5Hz BP filter Q of 2.0 -1.8dB

I could not get anything to be much lower effectively without burning through a lot of EQ bands and getting much more complicated. This one is actually -3dB at 13.5Hz (Note the scale used is only 1dB a division.) so it is rather low with few EQ bands used.



Ah, this is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks Ricci!

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post #52 of 214 Old 12-23-2013, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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marty, if you know what a parametric eq is, then you understand shelf filters, more or less. just think of the shelf filter as being one half of the parametric filter.

the red line is a simple parametric eq.

the blue line is a shelf filter. in this case it is a "high pass shelf filter" with positive gain.

a low shelf filter would be higher on the low end and lower on the top end.

I just freehanded these curves to show the basics. they are all actually very technically specified based on the slope and location, etc.

a linkwitz transform is one flavor of a low pass shelf filter. it brings up the low frequencies with boost.


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post #53 of 214 Old 12-23-2013, 09:18 AM
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FYI you can model these filter combos very easily in REW as well. I have sealed subs and wanted a small below 20hz boost. I modeled it with generic filters in REW, programmed them in my inuke, and as expected the actual after sweep closely matched the predicted in the REW eq screen.
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post #54 of 214 Old 12-23-2013, 08:02 PM
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So basically, with a typical high pass filter ad say 20hz, you can then add a low shelf filter to take the 20hz signal where it would normally start to roll off, and extend its roll off down a little ways to where the low shelf is set? I think that I understand the concept.

How can this be modeled to see the predicted behavior? Is it possible to model in winISD?
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post #55 of 214 Old 12-24-2013, 02:44 AM - Thread Starter
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yeah, marty, you've got it.

it is possible to model in winisd, but tricky. essentially you set a linkwitz transform filter up with both "sides" at q=0.707 and one frequency at double the other. that would be for 12db of gain at 12db/octave.

example:


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post #56 of 214 Old 05-14-2014, 11:38 PM
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post #57 of 214 Old 07-15-2014, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
The DCX2496 only allows for corner frequencies down to 20hz, but many folks could use a high pass feature below that point. This is easily accomplished using a combination of a 20hz high pass filter and a negative gain high shelf filter.

Here is how it works illustrated in WinISD (divide the frequency scale by 10).

The green line is the target curve--a 2nd order high pass filter at 10hz.

Step 1: The red line is a 2nd order high pass filter at 20hz. Enter this in the DCX.

Step 2: The yellow line is a 12db/octave high shelf filter with negative gain of -12db also at 20hz. Enter this in the DCX.

Step 3: You're done. When these two filters are combined, they produce the target curve.

If you need a different high pass point, just adjust how many db of gain are in the shelf filter. For example, a setting of -6db should provide a high pass filter at around 14hz.



Step 1 detail.



Step 2 detail.




Update:

Many have asked how to set this up in the iNuke DSP. The filters are the same.

Here is an example of how to set the filters for a i would suggest a 2nd order 16hz high pass filter.

iNuke can't set filters below 20hz, but that is no problem. We just start with one at 20hz, then add a little shelf to push it down to 16hz.

Here is exactly what to put into the iNuke DSP.

Step 1: On the FILTER tab, enter 2nd order High-pass filter at 20hz (Butterworth, 12db / octave)



Step 2: On the PARAMETRIC EQ tab, enter Filter 1, Gain -4db, Frequency 20hz, type: HS12



Then use filters 2, 3, 4, etc. for any other EQ that you wish to add (e.g., to help correct for room modes).

To set their filter lower than 16hz, just add more "negative gain" in step 2. If adding a total of -12db negative gain, the 20hz high pass will be pushed all the way down to 10hz.
When implementing this filter, am I able to EQ in positive boost to 20-30hz frequencies on filter 2? It seems that this might "undo" any of the effect that the first filter created. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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post #58 of 214 Old 07-16-2014, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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yes. all the other filters remain available.


its all relative with respect to the shape of the curve. as for the total amount of bass, that is adjusted with the level.
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post #59 of 214 Old 08-24-2014, 01:00 PM
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I tried the settings provided in post #1 and I don't seem to be getting any boost below the usual ~17Hz roll off. In the pic, Audyssey is on, and the iNuke is set to "STEREO":
- black is flat settings on the iNuke;
- brown is post #1 settings; and
- green is post #1 settings with -12dB gain.

What am I doing wrong?
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post #60 of 214 Old 09-09-2014, 08:57 PM
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LTD02,
I need to implement a HPF like you've described in the first post on my iNuke DSP 6000 units because they tap out on scenes like Blackhawk down at low volumes. So I've done what you suggested in the first post exactly, but substituted a -9dB HS12 instead of your suggested -4dB so that I could go a bit lower in frequency.


My question is - I have been using a dynamic EQ function to give me a little bit more of a house curve at lower volumes on the iNuke. Do I need to disable that now, or actually reverse the curve?
Here is a screenprint showing what I was doing on the right and what I'm wondering if I need to change it to on the left. (given that I am implementing your suggested solution for an HPF below 20hz.)






Also, can you explain what the attack and release are on the dynamic EQ function with the iNuke DSP? Those are still default on my unit.
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
208 identical 1" tweeters, 52 identical 5" woofers, and 8 identical 18" subwoofers work in uniform to deliver an unquantifiably great experience!
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