How to extend the high pass filter below 20hz in DCX2496 - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 203 Old 04-06-2019, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
I've been trying the iNuke tweak to boost sub-Hz FR on my sealed UXL-18s but I can't seem to make it work. I'm running the subs as Dual Mono with identical settings on both. In the attached pic:
- red curve is iNuke's INIT_DATA setting (no filters of any kind); and
- blue curve is Butterworth 12dB HPF @ 20Hz and 0dB + HS12 @ 20Hz and -4dB.

I don't see any improvement to the FR curve below 20Hz. What am I missing / doing wrong?
for sealed subs, no high pass filter is required.

sealed naturally have rolloff.

HS12 @ 20Hz and -4dB is all you need or even LS12 @20hz +4dB. where the 4 can be increased to whatever you want. but be very careful because each 3db is twice the power and 41% more excursion!
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post #182 of 203 Old 04-06-2019, 01:16 PM
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Thanks for the input. I removed the HPF and I still don't see sub-20Hz boosted:
- black curve is iNuke's INIT_DATA setting (no filters of any kind);
- red curve is Butterworth 12dB HPF @ 20Hz and 0dB + HS12 @ 20Hz and -4dB; and
- blue curve is no HPF + HS12 @ 20Hz and -4dB.

I'll post screen caps of the iNuke GUI shortly.
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post #183 of 203 Old 04-06-2019, 01:22 PM
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iNuke settings (the PEQ settings are the same for both channels).
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post #184 of 203 Old 04-06-2019, 02:02 PM
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I see the high shelf, I don't see the Butterworth!
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post #185 of 203 Old 04-06-2019, 02:06 PM
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Last screen-shot for today and it's a weird one (to me, anyway). I moved the mic back ~3 ft and the curve tended toward a much flatter overall response both above and below 20Hz:
- black curve - default settings in original mic position
- red curve - HS12 setting in original mic position
- blue curve - default settings in new mic position (3 ft back)
- green curve - HS12 setting in new mic position (3 ft back)
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post #186 of 203 Old 04-06-2019, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I see the high shelf, I don't see the Butterworth!
Michael
I removed it because LTD02 said it wasn't necessary. But it makes essentially no difference.
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post #187 of 203 Old 04-06-2019, 02:11 PM
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Gonna have supper soon, then run Audyssey against the current (green) curve and see what happens. Thanks, guys, for your input.
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post #188 of 203 Old 04-06-2019, 02:52 PM
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Sorry, read my own settings wrong.

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post #189 of 203 Old 04-06-2019, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
Thanks for the input. I removed the HPF and I still don't see sub-20Hz boosted:
- black curve is iNuke's INIT_DATA setting (no filters of any kind);
- red curve is Butterworth 12dB HPF @ 20Hz and 0dB + HS12 @ 20Hz and -4dB; and
- blue curve is no HPF + HS12 @ 20Hz and -4dB.

I'll post screen caps of the iNuke GUI shortly.
the blue curve has 4 db of boost in there. if you want the absolute level to be 4db more, then the level has to be turned up by 4dB.

the HS12 @ 20Hz and -4dB changes the shape of the curve. the level can be adjusted in the avr subwoofer level or in the inuke itself.
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post #190 of 203 Old 04-06-2019, 05:24 PM
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Turn off each of the unused filters as well. I can't say it will change things, but the fewer variables the better.

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post #191 of 203 Old 04-06-2019, 05:43 PM
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This is it for now. Ears are ~ 14.5' back from front wall, curves are as follows (same on both channels):
1. Black
- filter: Butterworth @ 20Hz, 6dB slope, 0db Gain
- parametric: HS12 @ 20Hz and -4dB; PEQ @ 38Hz, 8.00, -10dB; PEQ @ 80Hz, 1.00, +4dB
- Audyssey off

2. Red
- same as 1, except Audyssey on

3. Green
- same as 2 except +8dB above cal (in AVR) on both subs

The fact remains: This room needs ported subs. Unless I play content at 0dB (way too loud for my liking), the bass at Audyssey cal is somewhat anemic.

With 8dB of boost, it'll do, but I already miss having my SS-18s nearfield behind me. I fully expect ported cabs for the UXLs to make a noticeable (and hopefully significant) difference.
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Last edited by eljaycanuck; 04-06-2019 at 07:07 PM.
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post #192 of 203 Old 04-07-2019, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
This is it for now. Ears are ~ 14.5' back from front wall, curves are as follows (same on both channels):

1. Black

- filter: Butterworth @ 20Hz, 6dB slope, 0db Gain

- parametric: HS12 @ 20Hz and -4dB; PEQ @ 38Hz, 8.00, -10dB; PEQ @ 80Hz, 1.00, +4dB

- Audyssey off



2. Red

- same as 1, except Audyssey on



3. Green

- same as 2 except +8dB above cal (in AVR) on both subs



The fact remains: This room needs ported subs. Unless I play content at 0dB (way too loud for my liking), the bass at Audyssey cal is somewhat anemic.



With 8dB of boost, it'll do, but I already miss having my SS-18s nearfield behind me. I fully expect ported cabs for the UXLs to make a noticeable (and hopefully significant) difference.


Take off the high pass filter. Sealed subs don't need that. You can leave the hs12 but realize that when you take that to -4db you have to go into the crossover section and bump the gain up by the same amount to even it out. You should also just try adding a LS12 @ 40hz +6db to what you have. That brings the fun. You dont want your subs to trail down as you approach 20hz. You want them trailing up (a house curve). My 2 cents.
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post #193 of 203 Old 04-07-2019, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo
Take off the high pass filter. Sealed subs don't need that. ...
It doesn't seem to make much of a difference either way so I'll leave it for now, maybe removed it next time I'm fiddling with the set-up.

Quote:
... You can leave the hs12 but realize that when you take that to -4db you have to go into the crossover section and bump the gain up by the same amount to even it out. ...
I don't recall reading that, but it makes a lot of sense. I'll give that a try, too.

Quote:
... You should also just try adding a LS12 @ 40hz +6db to what you have. That brings the fun. You dont want your subs to trail down as you approach 20hz. You want them trailing up (a house curve). My 2 cents.
Definitely worth a shot as well. Thanks for the input!
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post #194 of 203 Old 04-07-2019, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Take off the high pass filter. Sealed subs don't need that.

Perhaps, but why needlessly reduce the amp's clipping headroom and dump extra heat into the VC?

Noah
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post #195 of 203 Old 04-08-2019, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

The fact remains: This room needs ported subs. Unless I play content at 0dB (way too loud for my liking), the bass at Audyssey cal is somewhat anemic.

With 8dB of boost, it'll do, but I already miss having my SS-18s nearfield behind me. I fully expect ported cabs for the UXLs to make a noticeable (and hopefully significant) difference.
This is just a product of audyssey removing any natural room gain you get and typically are used to hearing. Never in 7 years running audyssey in several rooms have I felt it does a great job without tweaking the response afterwards. I have found, just as you have that 8 dB (Even 15dB at some points) higher bass is what is needed for me to hear a presentation that I feel is appropriate. When I was running audyssey I typically found around 10dB added was absolutely essential actually, with additional boosting as needed depending on the source or music/movie track.

Also keep in mind that your graph is a single point measurement of the response of your bass. Your ears are two points, and your brain in capable of so much more than a mic can show you on a graph. The human ear has an uncanny ability to ""Hear through the room", and is why many prominent audio gurus say that room correction, especially above schroeder freq. is an absolute waste of time and ruins an otherwise good speaker. Case and point, never once when running audyssey did I ever use it on my main speakers when listening to music. I went straight to "L/R Bypass."

Don't let a pretty graph deter you from experimenting. I see you are a musician, you will know what sounds "Right" to you ear. FWIW the green line looks fine to me. Possibly a little cut at 40hz to smooth that area a shade more, then some additional overall boost at the gain knob.

Oh and most important: Audyssey will remove any low shelf boosting you are trying to do so you want to ALWAYS add the low shelf - L/T style boosts AFTER you do audyssey sweeps.
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post #196 of 203 Old 04-08-2019, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Perhaps, but why needlessly reduce the amp's clipping headroom and dump extra heat into the VC?


Can you explain this a bit? My understanding is that the inuke already rolls off by design (Shreds thread). If you're trying to make more sound at lower frequencies, why would you high pass your sealed subs? (Trying to learn)
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post #197 of 203 Old 04-08-2019, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio
… Oh and most important: Audyssey will remove any low shelf boosting you are trying to do so you want to ALWAYS add the low shelf - L/T style boosts AFTER you do audyssey sweeps.
This (tweaking after Audyssey) is probably the one thing I should have been doing all along that I've never done. I've always applied outboard EQ (iNuke, miniDSP) first and then watched most of the gains disappear after running Audyssey. I don't want to derail this thread any more than I already have (sorry about that! ) so my last comment is that I'm going to reposition my subs with one up front and one nearfield behind me, try some of the suggestions made here and see how that goes. I still expect I'll give ported cabs a go, but first things first. Thanks again to everyone for their input.

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post #198 of 203 Old 04-08-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Can you explain this a bit? My understanding is that the inuke already rolls off by design (Shreds thread). If you're trying to make more sound at lower frequencies, why would you high pass your sealed subs? (Trying to learn)

My (perhaps unjustified) assumption was that we were talking about freq below which there is useful output.


So it depends on the sub's capability; if you get all the SPL you want w/o clipping or appreciable power compression, no HP needed.

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post #199 of 203 Old 05-24-2019, 10:48 AM
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Great tip! Seems to have given a boost from 20-30Hz as well? Level matched before and after using exact values as suggested in first post on four subs powered by two NX6000D's:



After a single and narrow band PEQ (-10, 51.8, 8.19):



I'm very happy with the results, thank you very much @LTD02 for sharing this great work-around!
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post #200 of 203 Old 01-14-2020, 02:45 PM
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I hate to post to an old thread, but this seems the most appropriate place for my question. Do these settings also work on a subwoofer that has a pair passive radiators? The reason I ask is because it starts to roll off hard at around 28Hz and I was thinking I need to boost it a ton at around 20Hz to try and get the low output flatter for home theater duty.

I finishing up building the partsexpress Dayton Audio 15" HO kit with dual passive radiators and am trying to figure out how to tweak the DSP on my Behringer NX3000D to get a more level output to at least 20Hz or 16Hz-ish if possible (WinISD predicts -13 decibels at 20Hz). I don't have any way to measure output aside from a phone app, but my initial thought was to mimic the roll-off that WinISD predicts in reverse by bumping 20Hz by +12 decibels and playing with the quality value until I basically created a flipped mirror image of the WinISD predicted roll-off and then let the subs natural slope drop the volume to safe levels somewhere in the 15Hz range (hopefully).

After reading this thread though, and acknowledging that I know very little about DSP, I'm not sure that my method is the best way to go about this.

Anyone have any thoughts or experience DSPing passive radiator setups?
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post #201 of 203 Old 01-14-2020, 03:14 PM
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Several things:

- Trying to boost below tune is beating a dead horse; the PR output is out of phase w/the driver.

And you could potentially damage the PR's, as well as overdrive the woofer and your amp; +12 dB requires 16X power

- The right way to do it is to tune the PR's lower by adding mass

- Don't trust your phone app/microphone for bass; mine is way low even at 40 Hz

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post #202 of 203 Old 01-15-2020, 07:21 AM
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The PRs each have a 1.18" xmax and the RSS390HO-4 has an xmax of .47" so I think the kit was designed so that you can't bottom out the passives. And this system will only be used at low to moderate sound levels for my home theater in a co-op.
I know a phone app isn't a precision sound analyzing device but it at least accurately reads frequencies when playing sign waves with probably less accurate decibel readings, but it will get me closer than my ear can and it's all I have.
Adding mass to the PRs won't get me there according to WinISD. The PRs each come with 7 weights that add a total of 525 grams and even though PE tech says they don't recommend adding more, I have another 4 large washers that could add another 82 grams to each PR. This only slightly reduces the curve and brings up 20Hz to around -12dB. Even if I double the weight in WinISD to 1050 grams, the 20Hz level is still -10.
I'm just trying to figure out how to counter the roll off with DSP so that our movie LFE is as good as I can make it. So if flattening a -13dB 20Hz dip by boosting 20Hz with an opposite shaped curve of +12dB isn't the answer, then what else can I try? I guess that's where I'm at.
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post #203 of 203 Old 01-15-2020, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonNYC View Post
The PRs each have a 1.18" xmax and the RSS390HO-4 has an xmax of .47" so I think the kit was designed so that you can't bottom out the passives. And this system will only be used at low to moderate sound levels for my home.

That helps a lot, you can try what you said and see how it works.

It also means you have another option - lower the tuning by using just one PR; cover the hole w/a wood disc.

Because your SPL is moderate, one PR is likely enough.

But achieving your is at odds w/your living situation.

A very effective solution, for any living situation, is to supplement LFE with a shaker.

Noah
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