1 inch CD Comparison (SEOS18) - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I'd disagree with this. 8th order has such a sharp knee compared to the 4th and 6th order that the steeper slopes will actually strain the CD more IMO. Below the -6db point, they all roll off quickly enough that excursion is reducing. See the transfer functions here:


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BTW, sorry I didn't know if you were thinking in terms of acoustic slopes or not based on something you said.

That is a good point. The knee is not as sharp with an LR36. I usually look at where the -24db point is. By that point the driver output is low enough that distortion doesn't matter. With an 8th order target, there would be more output at 800 Hz, but less after that. With a 6th order target, there would be less output at 800 Hz but more below that. It's a trade-off. Probably should try both.

And no problem re the electrical v acoustical. It's always good to mention it smile.gif

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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I agree it's hard to wreck these things. Even with 2.83V I run sweeps with no protection. 20hz start frequency sweeps are no problem. I usually use less power on a CD though cause they're so loud tongue.gif

EDIT - 1 last thing. Once you level match the tweeter with your woofer you should get some free protection out of that. Like if you need to bring it down 10db, well, that's a lot of power.

Exactly. The CD is so much more efficient than the woofer (although, the Deltalite 2515 II is pretty darn efficient). There is very little power going to the CD. Remember, these things are built for PA use where they will be hit with 10s, if not 100s, of Watts. They would probably not be used that low though.

There are practical limits to the excursion of CDs. At some point, the diaphragm will just strike the phase plug and make some bad sounds. But like Tux says, even sweeping at 200 Hz at a 1/10th of a Watt should cause no problems. It never has with other compression drivers I have.
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post #32 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I think you might be a little confused on why a Cap is need for protection. Your DSP equipment (I own many) does not protect your CDs (no matter what slopes you use) and while I also have not screwed up a CD, a simply CAP adds the only projection in a DSP setup. The phase shift at more then 1 octave below the XO point is meaningless.


Will you blow your CD without a cap in place? who knows, just turning on an amp can destroy a CD because there is ZERO protection between the CD and the amp. lower costs CDs are easily replaced.

I do not want to spend another $5 to $10K on CDs myself wink.gif

I'm sure you don't! You have a lot of $$$ in CD's alone there.

You gonna stay with us, Doug? redface.gif Bought any new gear in the past couple years?


Awesome thread, btw.
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post #33 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

BMS is rated from 500hz up and recommends an 800Hz crossover, fwiw....

http://bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=4550_specification

While we can push these 1" CDs lower, honestly the woofers handle that frequency better. If someone wants < 1KHz quality performance from a Compression driver, they are better off going with 1.5" or 2" CDs. My 1" CDs are collecting dust these days.

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post #34 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

While we can push these 1" CDs lower, honestly the woofers handle that frequency better. If someone wants < 1KHz quality performance from a Compression driver, they are better off going with 1.5" or 2" CDs. My 1" CDs are collecting dust these days.

Oh! Did you get into the large format game? biggrin.gif Or just using ribbons these days?
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post #35 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I think you might be a little confused on why a Cap is need for protection. Your DSP equipment (I own many) does not protect your CDs (no matter what slopes you use) and while I also have not screwed up a CD, a simply CAP adds the only projection in a DSP setup. The phase shift at more then 1 octave below the XO point is meaningless.


Will you blow your CD without a cap in place? who knows, just turning on an amp can destroy a CD because there is ZERO protection between the CD and the amp. lower costs CDs are easily replaced.

I do not want to spend another $5 to $10K on CDs myself wink.gif

I completely understand that penngray. There is no protection with a DSP. But it has never been a problem. Again, CDs are next to indestructible. There is nothing in it to destroy. Sure, a lot of DC will fry the VC (that rhymes!). And maybe if you push them really hard at 200 Hz, the diaphragm will bump against the phase plug and might get damaged. But you have to be pretty inane to do that.
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post #36 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

If its not a brick wall (Still don't have a DEQX), I do not bother even going past 3rd order any more even with the DSPs I use. I think the OP is still very confused on the issue of protection.

Hey Penn, great to see you posting.

Your statement is a little confusing to me. The OP isn't using a DEQX, he's using a minidsp 2x4. Do you use brick walls 8th order slopes, or lower than 3rd order? I don't get it. Personally I usually use low order slopes on a CD/horn combo, but don't have a lot of experience with pushing CDs low with active XOers. But when I do I find it works good. iirc you use steep slopes. Not anymore?

Stick around this time biggrin.gif

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post #37 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Your 360 has definitely been damaged, the charts show it.
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You need something like this:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-410

Because you were just experimenting, you can send me the driver and I will replace the diaphragms for you. Just don't go crazy like that again. biggrin.gif

I have my doubts, Erich. I'll check them later today. Can you post a picture of a clean diaphragm and the insides of the DNA360? I can post mine. Voice coil misaligned, I can imagine. But destroyed diaphragm? Very little chance.

If the diaphragm is indeed damaged, I'd be happy to pay for replacements.

And I was thinking of going for the large 1" JBLs. I have the 2445Js, the 2" monsters. But they break up badly above 6 kHz, and they need a larger horn.
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post #38 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

While we can push these 1" CDs lower, honestly the woofers handle that frequency better. If someone wants < 1KHz quality performance from a Compression driver, they are better off going with 1.5" or 2" CDs. My 1" CDs are collecting dust these days.

I have some 2" CDs too. But I found that they need help above 6 kHz. And the c-to-c distances just don't work very well up there. What drivers and horns are you using?
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post #39 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 10:36 AM
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Great thread. What 2" drivers have you tested rahula7, and on what horns? Nice looking SEOS-18's btw.
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

While we can push these 1" CDs lower, honestly the woofers handle that frequency better. If someone wants < 1KHz quality performance from a Compression driver, they are better off going with 1.5" or 2" CDs. My 1" CDs are collecting dust these days.

Now we're talkin'. That's exactly what I plan on doing with some Radian 2" cd's coupled to Iwata-300's. Passive 1st order mids to a Fostex T500amkII and active TD15H. Should be a fun exercise. smile.gif
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Stick around this time biggrin.gif

Times Pi biggrin.gif
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post #40 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

BMS is rated from 500hz up and recommends an 800Hz crossover, fwiw....

http://bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=4550_specification

While we can push these 1" CDs lower, honestly the woofers handle that frequency better. If someone wants < 1KHz quality performance from a Compression driver, they are better off going with 1.5" or 2" CDs. My 1" CDs are collecting dust these days.

I didn't say anything about whether or not they'd sound good down there (I would tend to agree with you there in some situations about the woofer doing a better job... but it would depend on the brand and model of CD and brand and model of woofer smile.gif hehe)... just that the BMS could be run down that low without damage according to the manufacturer. I doubt they'd offer that up as a recommendation if it couldn't handle it.... they don't spec the minimum slope of the crossover for that crossover frequency like JBL does with their CDs... likely 3rd order I would think.... but guessing at that....

The radian is spec'ed that it can be crossed in a similar range to the others on this list... but I'd never want to run it that low after listening to it on a couple horns (QSC econowave and SEOS12).... anything below 1.4-1.5K cross and it doesn't sound as good.... I prefer the sound of the radian 2-6k range over B&C in listening tests with my gear... but the B&C could go lower without the issues the radian experienced and was therefore easier to integrate with some woofer combos.... it's always compromises smile.gif

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post #41 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Hey Penn, great to see you posting.

Your statement is a little confusing to me. The OP isn't using a DEQX, he's using a minidsp 2x4. Do you use brick walls 8th order slopes, or lower than 3rd order? I don't get it. Personally I usually use low order slopes on a CD/horn combo, but don't have a lot of experience with pushing CDs low with active XOers. But when I do I find it works good. iirc you use steep slopes. Not anymore?

Stick around this time biggrin.gif


Sorry for the confusion, I was just commenting on the fact that the only DSP I would use for high order filters is the DEQX. I use DSPs like the minidsp, dcx, etc and have subjectively concluded that I do not like anything higher then 3rd order. Meaning, I agree on the idea of low order slopes.

Can't stick around, just enjoying a little reading and discussion biggrin.gif

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post #42 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 11:41 AM
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Oh c'mon man!!!! You see a big horn discussion and poke your head in then leave us again?!?!?! biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif There are some seriously big horn designs in the works methinks, your knowledge would be paramount!

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post #43 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Great thread. What 2" drivers have you tested rahula7, and on what horns?

I have the JBL 2445s, and have used them on Inlow Sound 300 Hz paper mache horns, and on these:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=270-204

I also have the BMS 4590 and have measurements somewhere. Nothing to write home about. Sure, it extends low. But it doesn't have the dispersion at the top end, i.e., that 1" concentric driver doesn't control directivity, the horn does. Yes, it goes up to 20 kHz, but it's not much use when the beam is 40 deg wide.

The 2" drivers have a glorious midrange though. Truly amazing.

@hometheatredoc. You don't have to guess or believe the manufacturer specs anymore. Just look at how it is doing on the SEOS-18. And then you decide if it goes low or not. As Zilch would say, "More data, less wank."
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post #44 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I'm sure you don't! You have a lot of $$$ in CD's alone there.

You gonna stay with us, Doug? redface.gif Bought any new gear in the past couple years? Still love my ATI amps for any Horn choice....can not find a better amp.



Awesome thread, btw.

Trying to Staying out of all the crazy audio madness. All my gear now seems to be out dated, nothing new purchased for years biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by rahula7 View Post

I have some 2" CDs too. But I found that they need help above 6 kHz. And the c-to-c distances just don't work very well up there. What drivers and horns are you using?

TAD TD-4001s on IWATA-300s (XOed using Mini-DSP with ported box using JBL 2226J 15" woofers).....on axis they make me very happy up past 13KHz (past 10K, I had some simple EQing done)...I still might add some HF horns someday but simple testing with one I borrowed convinced me it was not worth my time yet. (XOing it is a nightmare too)

I also have the BMS 4592s (with XOs), I still went with the TAD TD-4001s....the compromise of the top end for me was not important as the quality of the 600Hz to 5KHz range....that is the range where I focus on. BMS 4592s are pretty damn nice but top end was not amazing and maybe its that subjective TAD thing wink.gif

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post #45 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Oh c'mon man!!!! You see a big horn discussion and poke your head in then leave us again?!?!?! biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif There are some seriously big horn designs in the works methinks, your knowledge would be paramount!

Yeah, I was doing a search on big horns just for curiosity and this one showed up......fun to see many regulars still having a great passion about audio. There is no middle ground, its like poker and Im pretty much an all in guy wink.gif

I was hoping someone had success with the SEOS-18.

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post #46 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Trying to Staying out of all the crazy audio madness. All my gear now seems to be out dated, nothing new purchased for years biggrin.gif
TAD TD-4001s on IWATA-300s (XOed using Mini-DSP with ported box using JBL 2226J 15" woofers).....on axis they make me very happy up past 13KHz...I still might add some HF horns someday but simple testing with one I borrowed convinced me it was not worth my time yet. (XOing it is a nightmare too)

I also have the BMS 4592s (with XOs), I still went with the TAD TD-4001s....the compromise of the top end for me was not important as the quality of the 600Hz to 5KHz range....that is the range where I focus on. BMS 4592s are pretty damn nice but top end was not amazing and maybe its that subjective TAD thing wink.gif

Nah. Your stuff is still good. Great thing about nice speakers is that they age well. smile.gif

If you don't stay for long, I hope you make a visit to my uber build thread...... whenever that happens. tongue.gif Soon, honestly. wink.gifsmile.gif
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post #47 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahula7 View Post

I have the JBL 2445s, and have used them on Inlow Sound 300 Hz paper mache horns, and on these:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=270-204

I also have the BMS 4590 and have measurements somewhere. Nothing to write home about. Sure, it extends low. But it doesn't have the dispersion at the top end, i.e., that 1" concentric driver doesn't control directivity, the horn does. Yes, it goes up to 20 kHz, but it's not much use when the beam is 40 deg wide.

The 2" drivers have a glorious midrange though. Truly amazing.

@hometheatredoc. You don't have to guess or believe the manufacturer specs anymore. Just look at how it is doing on the SEOS-18. And then you decide if it goes low or not. As Zilch would say, "More data, less wank."

Yes, I have never had a better mid-range experience. I would and do compromise > 13KHz to ensure 500Hz to 5KHz performance.

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post #48 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Nah. Your stuff is still good. Great thing about nice speakers is that they age well. smile.gif

If you don't stay for long, I hope you make a visit to my uber build thread...... whenever that happens. tongue.gif Soon, honestly. wink.gifsmile.gif


speakers don't age but there's some nice AV choices now with Ipad apps....I do check in from time to time, get your damn uber build thread GOING!!!!! wink.gif


btw, sorry OP for anything off topic. I subscribed so I can see more about the larger horn projects...Im a fan of GOING BIG!!! biggrin.gif

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post #49 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rahula7 View Post

I have my doubts, Erich. I'll check them later today. Can you post a picture of a clean diaphragm and the insides of the DNA360? I can post mine. Voice coil misaligned, I can imagine. But destroyed diaphragm? Very little chance.

If the diaphragm is indeed damaged, I'd be happy to pay for replacements.

And I was thinking of going for the large 1" JBLs. I have the 2445Js, the 2" monsters. But they break up badly above 6 kHz, and they need a larger horn.


The diaphragm can definitely get damaged or messed up from running them like that. That's why manufactures say to cross them at 1000hz or above. As mentioned, I purposely did the same thing with the prototypes. If you look at all other 360 graphs, you'll see that they are pretty much dead on the DE250, if not better. And I test every one of them before shipping. You can send it back to me and I'll replace the diaphragm for you.



BMS claims 500hz, but if you read all their specs, you will see that they are a bit 'fluffed'. Heck, look at their graphs and you'll see that 500hz isn't even remotely close. There was a discussion about that in the BMS thread, along with graphs comparing the DE250, BMS 4550, and 360.

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post #50 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Yes, I have never had a better mid-range experience. I would and do compromise > 13KHz to ensure 500Hz to 5KHz performance.

What about imaging? Does the image form in front of the speakers? This is an artifact of the narrow dispersion of large horns. I know some people like that widening and larger than life imaging. I like more depth and realism. With the SEOS-18, you get excellent, but not stellar, depth.
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send me a PM. I have one sitting around wink.gif

Pen, good to see you around. smile.gif
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Nah. Your stuff is still good. Great thing about nice speakers is that they age well. smile.gif

If you don't stay for long, I hope you make a visit to my uber build thread...... whenever that happens. tongue.gif Soon, honestly. wink.gifsmile.gif

Scott, you are wearing out that "soon" word. Love to see a thread brother. smile.gif
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post #53 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 01:05 PM
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This thread is of great interest to me.smile.gif It's nice that someone has a SEOS 18 build going.
I have all the parts, except the minidsp, for a SEOS 18/ BA 750/ TD15M build. Hopefully soon, I'll find the time to start construction. I plan to build a bass bin for the TD15M's using first rate materials and constrained damping. The SEOS 18/BA750 will have its own small enclosure and a tentative crossover point ~650hz.
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post #54 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 01:13 PM
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What is the "BA 750"?

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post #55 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 01:15 PM
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post #56 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The diaphragm can definitely get damaged or messed up from running them like that. That's why manufactures say to cross them at 1000hz or above. As mentioned, I purposely did the same thing with the prototypes. If you look at all other 360 graphs, you'll see that they are pretty much dead on the DE250, if not better. And I test every one of them before shipping. You can send it back to me and I'll replace the diaphragm for you.



BMS claims 500hz, but if you read all their specs, you will see that they are a bit 'fluffed'. Heck, look at their graphs and you'll see that 500hz isn't even remotely close. There was a discussion about that in the BMS thread, along with graphs comparing the DE250, BMS 4550, and 360.

Sounds like business is good and products are great....CONGRATS!!!

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post #57 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 01:18 PM
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oh my......I didn't know Eric achieved this......that shows how much I have been out of the loop!!!

2" CD for under $200, now that is INSANELY good. I remember creating several threads on 2"CD and how every single one was expense....Well done Eric!!


Anyone running them??

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post #58 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 01:26 PM
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It's a 1" compression driver. The voice coil is 2". I have not seen anyone run them yet...been waiting on the the Auto-Tech shippment is my guess. Builds should pop up soon...
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post #59 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 01:27 PM
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I think it's a 1" exit, with a 2" VC.

Rajacat will be. Gauranteed EV will or is. Not sure who else. They sold out really quick actually. I don't think many got made up. But not many posts about them.

The BA750 would be a good choice for the OP, but they're out of stock.

My youtube channel: Impulse Audio
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post #60 of 212 Old 06-19-2013, 01:41 PM
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Rahula7
Great thread!! I appreciate the work and time you are putting in to this. Very Interesting.
The bigger the waveguide the more the differences will be revealed. We have know this from the beginning and now its time to find out how much.

Erich get him a 360 ASAP so we can find out whats up. smile.gif
If it helps or makes things go faster I will gladly pay for it. I really only care about 360 vs 4550 but the more the merrier
Chris W

Chris
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