A 3 way 99db multi configurable SEOS design - Page 121 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3601 of 3880 Old 07-07-2016, 10:55 PM
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What I've done so far: I connected up some speaker cable to a couple binding posts I had laying around and connected the posts to the inputs on the XO board. I did the same with the CD/WG wired to the + - HF inputs. I did this to the bad board and the never used center XO board as well. Now I had to identical setups to work with.

I connected the bad board with the speaker cables from the amp (banana plugs) to the binding posts I wired to the XO. I played some music with a lot of piano sounds and the bad CD XO baord setup had sound coming from the CD but very faint, I also had the left speaker playing so I really couldn't tell if the CD had the same output, of course the speaker sounded wonderful.

Next I hooked up both CD/WG XO boards to the L & R speaker cables using the binding posts to plug the speasker cable into. I played music again and I heard sound from both the bad and never used boards but very faint at -30 dB.

I decided to try running some AVR test tones through both of the XOs and made sure the trim levels were set to the lowest value before playing the pink noise signal. I ran the tones through the bad board first and heard the sounds and slowly turned up the trim level to see if it would get louder and it did. I did the same think for the unused XO board and got the same results.

Then I set each L & R channel trims to -7dB and ran the tones again through each XO board and measured the output of each board separetly with an SPL meter and each board with CD connected measured exactly the same. So I do have sound from the CDs. I can run a lot of tests with the bad board since I have it configured this way with binding posts attached and the CD hooked up as well. The pic is what I have.

I went all around the bad board today and checked again for any solder shorts and found none. I scraped in between each copper pad to make sure nothing was shorting to another pad.

Last edited by ahblaza; 07-29-2016 at 07:36 PM.
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post #3602 of 3880 Old 07-07-2016, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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So when doing this the tweeter is working the same as the others or still way quieter?

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post #3603 of 3880 Old 07-07-2016, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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You need to do it like dash said. Have the neg hooked up normal. Tap the positive to the downstream side of the cap, then past the inductor then past the resistor then the next resistor. See if you get full sound anywhere along there.

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post #3604 of 3880 Old 07-07-2016, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dashpuppy View Post
how about skip all that, just connect the cd directly to the amplifier and see what you hear. have it at a low level with the other speaker connected to the other channel. The CD that's just connected to the amp should be louder..
That doesn't seem to be the case as I could barely hear the CD hooked up through the XO board, see the photos how I did that. Both CDs were barely audible at -30 dB MV hooked up the way I had them from the photos. This is really driving me crazy, the pink noise actually sounded like pink noise from even the bad board and both CDs had the exact output at the -7 trim level.

Probably means both boards are bad......
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post #3605 of 3880 Old 07-07-2016, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
You need to do it like dash said. Have the neg hooked up normal. Tap the positive to the downstream side of the cap, then past the inductor then past the resistor then the next resistor. See if you get full sound anywhere along there.
Hooked up with the setup I have with the CD connected to pos to pos and neg to neg and the speaker cable coming from the amp plugged into the connected to board biding posts the CD is still a lot quieter than the working speaker.

Can I do what you suggest with how I have the XO board now just don't connect the pos side of the CD to board but rather tap it around the shaded area of the board that was shown on another post? I'm looking for a louder output, I assume the area you're referring to is the upper right hand corner of the component side of the board or under that area on the copper side?
Thanks
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post #3606 of 3880 Old 07-07-2016, 11:43 PM
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Is this the area I should be concerned with as far as tapping the pos lead around the components on the copper side.

Ryan please forgive my ignorance, are you talking about going down stream from the Cap and other components on the copper or component side of the board, sorry for the really simple questions but I would rather look stupid and do it right than look smart and do it wrong, thank you.

Last edited by ahblaza; 07-29-2016 at 07:36 PM.
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post #3607 of 3880 Old 07-07-2016, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
What I've done so far: I connected up some speaker cable to a couple binding posts I had laying around and connected the posts to the inputs on the XO board. I did the same with the CD/WG wired to the + - HF inputs. I did this to the bad board and the never used center XO board as well. Now I had to identical setups to work with.

I connected the bad board with the speaker cables from the amp (banana plugs) to the binding posts I wired to the XO. I played some music with a lot of piano sounds and the bad CD XO baord setup had sound coming from the CD but very faint, I also had the left speaker playing so I really couldn't tell if the CD had the same output, of course the speaker sounded wonderful.

Next I hooked up both CD/WG XO boards to the L & R speaker cables using the binding posts to plug the speasker cable into. I played music again and I heard sound from both the bad and never used boards but very faint at -30 dB.

I decided to try running some AVR test tones through both of the XOs and made sure the trim levels were set to the lowest value before playing the pink noise signal. I ran the tones through the bad board first and heard the sounds and slowly turned up the trim level to see if it would get louder and it did. I did the same think for the unused XO board and got the same results.

Then I set each L & R channel trims to -7dB and ran the tones again through each XO board and measured the output of each board separetly with an SPL meter and each board with CD connected measured exactly the same. So I do have sound from the CDs. I can run a lot of tests with the bad board since I have it configured this way with binding posts attached and the CD hooked up as well. The pic is what I have.

I went all around the bad board today and checked again for any solder shorts and found none. I scraped in between each copper pad to make sure nothing was shorting to another pad.
First off, by using the unused board, you introduced another variable since you don't know for sure whether the unused board is working or not. I recommend you do the testing/comparison with the known working channel. If you need to, run a high freq test tone (6-8kHz) to compare the KNOWN good and the bad boards. If you prefer to use pink noise instead, disconnect the mids and LF on the good speaker so you can compare only the CDs.

Once you have a good idea of how loud the CD should be, you can turn off the other channel and start concentrating on the bad board. Connect the CD - terminal to the long connector. Check for continuity between CD- and the copper on the bottom side of the board where the connector is soldered. This eliminates the (-) connector as the bad part. Assuming you have the input of the XO connected to your amp, do the following using the 6-8kHz test tone:

1. Touch the CD + to IN+ on the XO. You should hear the sound loud and clear. If not check you setup
2. Touch the CD + the junction of 3ohm resistor connected to IN+ and the 6.2 uF capacitor. If no or weak sound, desolder on end of the resistor and measure.
3. Touch the CD + the junction of 6.2uF capacitor / air core inductor / 3 ohm resistor (this is your HF+). If no or weak sound here are the possible causes:
- bad capacitor - short across it, see if the sound increases
- bad 3 ohm resistor - disconnect and measure
- shorted inductor - remove and check sound again

Cold/bad solder will also cause this problem but looking at your board it looks like it is soldered well. Do these and if you still cannot figure it out we will try some more things.
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post #3608 of 3880 Old 07-08-2016, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
You need to do it like dash said. Have the neg hooked up normal. Tap the positive to the downstream side of the cap, then past the inductor then past the resistor then the next resistor. See if you get full sound anywhere along there.
I'm not completely sure if the schematic has changed but what I've seen is:

IN -> Resistor -> Capacitor -> CD (with inductor and resistor in parallel/shunt).

If nothing has changed, then the sequence of tapping should be: positive, resistor, cap. Past the inductor is your (-) so no sound should be heard if connecting there. If there is then something is wrong.

Is it ok to post the schematic here? Might be easier to give instructions that way.
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post #3609 of 3880 Old 07-08-2016, 03:44 PM
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@ja00 I will try your suggestions soon, I've gone most of the day and I'm way behind the testing procedures and intimidated as well. I'll report back. If I use the AVRs pink noise I have to disconnect the woofers and mids of the good speaker correct, if I use the 6-8kHz signal I don't have to disconnect anything from the good speaker? Sorry again but can you tell me how to generate the 8kHz signal, I'm assuming REW somehow, I'm really nervous about all of this and like I said intimidated but am determined to figure this out thanks to you ja00 and all the rest of you guys. TIA
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post #3610 of 3880 Old 07-08-2016, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
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I just sanded the red coated insulation on the wire leads as they extended much further down the lead that some of the others. I had to do it with most of them even in the working speaker. I then just re-tinned the through hole lead. I checked continuity on the actual lead from the tip to the coating to make sure none of the coated wire went through the copper side of the board.
Some people think the copper coating is actually the copper your solder to. Your comment about sanding down to the copper made me wonder if you removed some of the tinned tip and just stopped when you got to the copper coating, which would be wrong. You would need to scrape off that copper color, but it sounds like you did.

I think I've lost track of what you've tried and haven't tried yet. Might be good to start a thread to help better track it if you can't get it solved soon. Have you removed any of the crossover parts from the board that are in line with the compression driver to check them?

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post #3611 of 3880 Old 07-08-2016, 07:46 PM
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Some people think the copper coating is actually the copper your solder to. Your comment about sanding down to the copper made me wonder if you removed some of the tinned tip and just stopped when you got to the copper coating, which would be wrong. You would need to scrape off that copper color, but it sounds like you did.

I think I've lost track of what you've tried and haven't tried yet. Might be good to start a thread to help better track it if you can't get it solved soon. Have you removed any of the crossover parts from the board that are in line with the compression driver to check them?
Erich sorry for the confusion, I've been in contact with Matt and he made a suggestion and sent the picture that I've attached below, I hooked the left amp channel directly to the + - inputs on the board and attached the - side of the CD to the -HF on the board and attached a wire to the + tab on the CD and left that wire to test the different contact points Matt suggested. Position 1 was no to low output, when I got to contact point 2 the tweeter (CD) came to life and did the same on both contact points 3 and 4.

The bottom side of the 6.2uf cap seems to be where the problem lies. Since I had the unused board out I did the same procedure and no to low output again at contact point 1, then at 2,3 and 4 the CD came to life and had loud output. What are the odds of that happening, at least I got one good XO board out of 3 and seemed (hope) to have isolated the problem.

I'm awaiting further instructions as how to "fix" or proceed from this point. Thank you.

Sincerely Jeffrey

Last edited by ahblaza; 07-29-2016 at 07:36 PM.
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post #3612 of 3880 Old 07-08-2016, 08:20 PM
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I'm awaiting further instructions as how to "fix" or proceed from this point. Thank you.

Sincerely Jeffrey
Not quite ready to fix yet. You still need to narrow it down to the culprit(s).

Keep your CD connected to 1.

Use attached image as reference
Desolder A. Retest. If good A (inductor) is the problem.
If still bad, desolder B. Retest. If good, B (resistor) (and maybe both A and B) is the problem.
If still bad, the 6.2uF may be the problem.

BTW you only need to desolder on leg of the part being tested.
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post #3613 of 3880 Old 07-08-2016, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ja00 View Post
Not quite ready to fix yet. You still need to narrow it down to the culprit(s).

Keep your CD connected to 1.

Use attached image as reference
Desolder A. Retest. If good A (inductor) is the problem.
If still bad, desolder B. Retest. If good, B (resistor) (and maybe both A and B) is the problem.
If still bad, the 6.2uF may be the problem.

BTW you only need to desolder on leg of the part being tested.
Keep + lead connected to 1 correct?

Thank you I will get on this in the AM and report back, very helpful thank you so much. Also the one leg only was my next question so again thank you for that as well.

Last edited by ahblaza; 07-08-2016 at 09:29 PM.
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post #3614 of 3880 Old 07-08-2016, 11:08 PM
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Keep + lead connected to 1 correct?
Yes, that is correct.

Quote:
Thank you I will get on this in the AM and report back, very helpful thank you so much. Also the one leg only was my next question so again thank you for that as well.
You are welcome. Pull the desoldered leg out of the hole so you are sure it is not connected.
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post #3615 of 3880 Old 07-09-2016, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ja00 View Post
Not quite ready to fix yet. You still need to narrow it down to the culprit(s).

Keep your CD connected to 1.

Use attached image as reference
Desolder A. Retest. If good A (inductor) is the problem.
If still bad, desolder B. Retest. If good, B (resistor) (and maybe both A and B) is the problem.
If still bad, the 6.2uF may be the problem.

BTW you only need to desolder on leg of the part being tested.
Did everything and coil and 3 ohm resistor are not the problem, Matt suggested all of this as well and finally to measure the resistance between +-HF pins and if it's open or no resistance it points to a bad cap, if resistance is measured there's a short some where between pads, I got no resistance.
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post #3616 of 3880 Old 07-09-2016, 06:18 PM
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Now desolder the capacitor leg that 1 points to, pull it out, then connect the CD+ to the desoldered leg. Retest.
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post #3617 of 3880 Old 07-09-2016, 06:19 PM
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Now desolder the capacitor leg that 1 points to, pull it out, then connect the CD+ to the desoldered leg. Retest.
Or use a wire and short the cap from one lead ( across the cap ) to the other. ..
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post #3618 of 3880 Old 07-09-2016, 06:55 PM
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Or use a wire and short the cap from one lead ( across the cap ) to the other. ..
Put a wire between both leads of the cap and then what, sorry..........
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post #3619 of 3880 Old 07-09-2016, 07:35 PM
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Put a wire between both leads of the cap and then what, sorry..........


Well, I dunno.. Test it ?


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post #3620 of 3880 Old 07-09-2016, 08:21 PM
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He's saying use a piece of scrap wire to connect the two points the capacitor normally connects. Then recheck the resistance of the high frequency portion of the circuit. If the capacitor has failed open, now you have closed the circuit and will find resistance that you can measure.
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post #3621 of 3880 Old 07-11-2016, 10:09 AM
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At this point, how much does a new crossover kit cost?...
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post #3622 of 3880 Old 07-11-2016, 02:22 PM
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He's saying use a piece of scrap wire to connect the two points the capacitor normally connects. Then recheck the resistance of the high frequency portion of the circuit. If the capacitor has failed open, now you have closed the circuit and will find resistance that you can measure.
Confirmed not a bad cap

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At this point, how much does a new crossover kit cost?...
Already sent an inquiry..................

Also have other help trying to resolve the issue.
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post #3623 of 3880 Old 07-11-2016, 02:33 PM
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Confirmed not a bad cap



Already sent an inquiry..................

Also have other help trying to resolve the issue.
If i were you, id pay extra and have it assembled & tested and shipped to you..
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post #3624 of 3880 Old 07-11-2016, 02:36 PM
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If i were you, id pay extra and have it assembled & tested and shipped to you..
That may be part of the help I mentioned, will keep all updated, thanks
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post #3625 of 3880 Old 07-11-2016, 02:57 PM
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Confirmed not a bad cap



Already sent an inquiry..................

Also have other help trying to resolve the issue.
Can you comment more on how you determined it is not a bad cap? Personally I would not order a complete set of XO (board ans parts) yet.
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post #3626 of 3880 Old 07-11-2016, 03:34 PM
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Can you comment more on how you determined it is not a bad cap? Personally I would not order a complete set of XO (board ans parts) yet.
I didn't order a whole new set yet, I did order the parts that I screwed up with all the testing on the one bad board from PE.

This was one of the ways I knew the cap was good according to Matt's suggestion:

Well as the final check, I would remove the 6.2uF cap from both bad boards and just connect the cap inline with the signal from the amp. + from amp to cap, cap to + on CD, - amp to - CD. This test removes any external problem possibilities from the board. If it cuts out almost all the sound you know it is a bad capacitor. However the capacitor will cut most of the lower frequencies as that is what it is supposed to do and you don't want to mistaken that as a reduction in all high frequency level which is possible if you are using a source without much content above 3000-5000hz as a functioning cap by itself will filter those frequencies and below away.

I also saw another test where I connected my multimeter between the cap leads on the resistance setting and then measured across the leads again with meter in the DC value range and I watched the cap value slowly discharge to 0 DC voltage as it supposed to if cap is good. The cap was disconnected from board (both leads) for the above tests.

Matt has been so kind as to offer to trouble shoot the one of two bad boards for nothing more than shipping back to me. I also would like to add that ja00 offered the same deal, you guys are really a tight knit group of dedicated DIY'ers and offer your expertise to us newbies, again I applaud you all?
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post #3627 of 3880 Old 07-11-2016, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry youre going through all this ahblaza. I haven't been able to keep track. Im sure you'll get to the bottom of things. Theres clearly something not functioning right.
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post #3628 of 3880 Old 07-12-2016, 10:23 AM
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Sorry youre going through all this ahblaza. I haven't been able to keep track. Im sure you'll get to the bottom of things. Theres clearly something not functioning right.
Thank you Ryan for your kind words, I knew this going in that it wasn't going to be easy tackling a 1099 build but with all you guys behind me I still firmly believe I will be up and running soon. At least I have one very good sounding 1099 speaker that has no problems and sounds wonderful.

The 1099s did come in handy though, I'm using them as stands for my Volt 8s which I might add sound wonderful and much larger than the enclosure they're in. OK I will keep you all informed of my progress, thanks again to all who participated in this thread.

Sincerely, Jeffrey
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post #3629 of 3880 Old 07-12-2016, 07:30 PM
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Not sure if this is the right place or not, but I saw that there is an option to have someone assemble the 1099 crossover for you. Anyone know how much it costs to do that?

My next question will be how much work is it to assemble the crossover myself? And what level of skill is required?
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post #3630 of 3880 Old 07-12-2016, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Not sure if this is the right place or not, but I saw that there is an option to have someone assemble the 1099 crossover for you. Anyone know how much it costs to do that?

My next question will be how much work is it to assemble the crossover myself? And what level of skill is required?
PM @mtg90 . He will assemble the crossovers for a minor fee. He also will sell pre-made boards which make it easier to assemble by yourself.
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