SubMaximus -- A Large Front-Loaded Horn for UXL18 and Stereo Integrity HT 18" - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 560 Old 04-17-2014, 04:58 PM
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PICS access panel mid course correction

warping vs WE don't need so stinkin' warping





recent posts remind me of an old Sam Cooke song, some of you may know it

Don't know much 'bout WINISD
Don't know much 'bout HORNRESP
Don't know much 'bout my F3
Can't calculate that lower knee

But I do know I like to build
Great designing, we get so thrilled

What a BADASS sub this'll be . . .
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post #272 of 560 Old 04-17-2014, 06:36 PM
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Shooooot...Wonderful World...one of my favorites. He had a great voice. Listened to it as a kid.
You have a nice rendition going there...wink.gif
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post #273 of 560 Old 04-17-2014, 09:57 PM
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AWESOME build!!!!

Sony XBR65x900e / STR-DN1080 / original PS4 / WOW! Ultra TV / Quantum Access Mini PC Stick w/Windows 10 / 8 x Rockville SPG88 8“ DJ PA Speakers / Dayton Audio SA1000 / Kicker 08S15L74 in a Tapped-Tapered Quarter Wave Tube (negative flare tapped horn).
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post #274 of 560 Old 04-18-2014, 05:08 PM
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some access cover finalization, added a brace to Panel J inside, got some wires, #14 soild wire, ready to set up for testing seal, and meet "DOLLY"





in other news, I have the info to chase down my purchase receipt for my 818. I have 3 months to try to have FRYs respond and to get my warranbty work done.

Have you ever tried the customer service call in line or email link?

For a company so well vested in electronics, when you click on the customer service email link,
IT SAYS THE SERVER CANNOT CONNECT.

Quote from "Weekend Update" : REALLY?

there is no even close acronym for this condition!

so far the answer for electronic purchases seems to be Microcenter.

who knew?

and the RC 270 is now over 3 years old, so TOAST?

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post #275 of 560 Old 04-19-2014, 03:44 PM
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PICS On a more positive note

after setting up the test bench and using my RABOS disc for test tones ,ran the speaker for a while and checked for leakage, seems to be none but

the rattling of everything else, up to 40 feet away and I was only running the bash 300 at less that 50%, the shot of the DMM should be showing 25 volts but I backed that down and just let it purr awhile.

figured with the mouth pointing straight up outside, "room gain" would be "minimal"

re-checked the mounting bolts and took up a bit of "slack"

lined with foam

a 2 x 4 and some clamps helped get the access panel started

and went around several times , like torqueing a cylinder head . . . except this is more critical

re-ran variety of test tones, down to 20 hz, several times,

airtight!

ran some tones and things from audiocheck.com.
turned the amp up a bit and at 18 hz, something was stirring . . .

as for exterior esthetics, maybe

time for MAX to move off the patio to live in the big house and meet Dolly

now THAT's goona be a job . .
for the record, it was only march 16th when LTD02 posted his "official" final best offer, posts 63 and 66 iirc

next phase, REW testing, hook up and trim the inule6K and find a good AVR to handle it

still a lot of fun to go












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post #276 of 560 Old 04-19-2014, 04:17 PM
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post #277 of 560 Old 04-22-2014, 11:13 AM
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post #278 of 560 Old 04-22-2014, 06:50 PM
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, serenading the neighbor hood, using an onkyo 160 (my last undead onkyo!) to drive the bash 300 (at about 3/4 gain) from my older laptop

sampled some Led Zepp, billy Idol, Hendrix, Great White, Cher ,Depech Mode, Pink Floyd "One of these days" but
from my ambient collection a group " A Positive Life, a cut called "Pleidean Communication" with awesomely synthesized LFE
and the opening from the acoustic Easgles "Hotel California" with that colossally miked drum in the beginning, which I've had the pleasure to hear live
as for my enclosed front patio being way too close to the freeway, well, I didn't hear the freeway for awhile

Since i'm pretty sure I have to replace the 818, hopefully with a denon x4000, I've opted to "simplfy" finish on MAX to mostly flat black , save a few bucks and hours

weight wise, search on the web says a 3/4 sheet of plywood can be , depending on type, 60 to 90+ lbs. so I don't have much left over from about 4 and 1/2 sheets plus the UXL weighs 60-ish, so conservatively 300 lbs. that's why Dolly was born. lets me park it where I need it to be for listening or finishing.

And I too wonder what its gonna repsond like once there's some actual room gain . . .break out the REW and a few cuts, blu-rays, downloaded, something called "new classic dub" by a contributor here in AVS, the usual suspects and bring in the XBOX1 and Titanfall . . .

still thinking about "signage"

after spending the better part of 4+ weeks building this , part time, I wondered, how awesome could this possibly be?

it may just be me, but the answer is, if you have the room, you'll want at least one. I'll try to get it in the house by the weekend

yeh, it'll make you giddy . . .

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post #279 of 560 Old 04-22-2014, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post

PICS
, serenading the neighbor hood, using an onkyo 160 (my last undead onkyo!) to drive the bash 300 (at about 3/4 gain) from my older laptop

sampled some Led Zepp, billy Idol, Hendrix, Great White, Cher ,Depech Mode, Pink Floyd "One of these days" but
from my ambient collection a group " A Positive Life, a cut called "Pleidean Communication" with awesomely synthesized LFE
and the opening from the acoustic Easgles "Hotel California" with that colossally miked drum in the beginning, which I've had the pleasure to hear live
as for my enclosed front patio being way too close to the freeway, well, I didn't hear the freeway for awhile

Since i'm pretty sure I have to replace the 818, hopefully with a denon x4000, I've opted to "simplfy" finish on MAX to mostly flat black , save a few bucks and hours

weight wise, search on the web says a 3/4 sheet of plywood can be , depending on type, 60 to 90+ lbs. so I don't have much left over from about 4 and 1/2 sheets plus the UXL weighs 60-ish, so conservatively 300 lbs. that's why Dolly was born. lets me park it where I need it to be for listening or finishing.

And I too wonder what its gonna repsond like once there's some actual room gain . . .break out the REW and a few cuts, blu-rays, downloaded, something called "new classic dub" by a contributor here in AVS, the usual suspects and bring in the XBOX1 and Titanfall . . .

still thinking about "signage"

after spending the better part of 4+ weeks building this , part time, I wondered, how awesome could this possibly be?

it may just be me, but the answer is, if you have the room, you'll want at least one. I'll try to get it in the house by the weekend

yeh, it'll make you giddy . . .

 

 

Simply Awesome!  If your around on friday, can I stop by after work and give it a listen?

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post #280 of 560 Old 04-26-2014, 02:17 PM
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PICS finishing touches for modest "looks" (think Henry Ford) since I don't want to do much carpentry in the house . .
not so sure that last brace in the horn mouth is needed but I already did the work so time for more touch -up







.

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post #281 of 560 Old 04-26-2014, 03:15 PM
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I'm liking it: )

 

looks no-nonsense, just like the guy who built it.  

 

;)

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post #282 of 560 Old 04-26-2014, 06:42 PM
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awesome work!biggrin.gif
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post #283 of 560 Old 04-28-2014, 10:44 PM
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Will you be doing any acoustic measurements before you bring it inside?

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post #284 of 560 Old 04-28-2014, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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haven't been following much in a while. little time lately, mostly helping folks with their builds in pm's.

anyway...i look in here this evening...and...you did it.

you actually freak'n did it man!

you should be super proud of pulling this one off!

BRAVO!

like mike asked, if there are any measurements that you can take before moving it inside, that might help us figure out if it is performing according to the hornresp model.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #285 of 560 Old 04-28-2014, 11:21 PM - Thread Starter
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"yeh, it'll make you giddy . . ."

for set up, not sure if we talked about it or not, to time align the sub with the mains, the mains will have to be delayed by about 1ms per foot of horn path. in this case the horn path is about 23 feet iirc, so about 23ms or if the receiver uses feet, input that the subwoofer is 23 feet further back from the mains than the mouth is physically located.

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post #286 of 560 Old 04-29-2014, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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"...Everything is modeled for the darn ultras!!! lol I am just glad to see a horn built specifically around the SI finally."

the original submaximus was for the si, but then we changed up the folding plan and, well, most of the whole thing...and optimized it for the uxl, figuring with this much wood and work, might as well drop an extra couple hundred on the driver. however, it looks to work pretty well for the si 18ht and even the dayton 18ho, but not 'quite' as good with that driver. the lms ultra should look pretty similar to the uxl in this cab. tough to say which would be better at the limit. both are very good drivers and i don't think we have enough info to make a prediction based on the small signal parameters. data-bass testing of the uxl vs the ultra in a sealed enclosure suggests the two drivers are neck and neck, with the ultra having a nose under 20hz, while the uxl has the same above 25hz. my best guess is that they will be provide substantially similar performance in the Submaximus.

as for how this compares with the gjallerhorn, they are a little different. the gjallerhorn is a tapped horn, which generally benefit from about 3db more sensitivity on the bottom end, but at the potential cost of less sensitivity on the top end and some potential resonances in the pass band. submaximus is a good bit larger and heavier, so closes the front loaded horn disadvantage on the low end the old fashion way--size. the top end should be pretty good right up past 100hz or more.

somebody asked about tuba. that is a different sub. much more workable. much more practical. the modeled low corner on that one comes in around 22/23hz or so, whereas the submaximus is somewhere down around 16hz. submaximus uses a much more expensive driver, can take a lots more power, and obviously is a lot more expensive to build. in return you get significantly more spl and extension.
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post #287 of 560 Old 04-29-2014, 12:28 AM
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except for the esthetics (?) on the "front" its ready to go inside
I have a 6 inches square "Aeolus" pressed oak thingy I wanted to fit with 3 mm. blue leds where the eyes are and then give it a "dramatic" black, shades of gray and what not paint job but I don't know how to wire that stuff at all, and then backlight (red?) it slightly raised off the birch paneling over a slight mirrored surface and a battery pack with a switch and ooh-la-la, yeah whatever . . .

I got the Yamaha 775WA hooked up tonight to run the living room so I've been going thru menus and kickin' it BUT

MAX is still parked in the garage, sitting on Dolly, puts the mouth about 3-4 inches off the ground, my RCA/XLR cable is still missing in spite of "delivery" 2 weeks ago but that's simple enuf to overcome. A spare BASH 300 could suffice but I've done the fan mod on the Inuke6K so except for the cable its available, just need to wire the speakon for 2 wires from the back of the 6K.
I have a spare laptop and will update REW (just revised 18 and 19) and the UMM6 mike and a 35ft hdmi cable .

Would testing it outside be "valid" WRT to a lack of "roomgain" I can position it kinda coming out of or into a corner or pointing straight out from the garage wall or tucked in close alongside that wall like in the picture or like I did with the BF subs and point it AT the wall (distance suggestions) and run it as a 2.1 system.
And the 22 GardenSnail Freeway got moved CLOSER when they re-did it so "background" levels are noticeably above 45Db.


I was running tones from audiocheck.com when testing for "airtight" before the cover went on and people noticed and stuff 40 feet away was rattling with 24-36 hz tones

last week I fired it up as the picture shows just for music put the BASH at about 75% for Pink Floyd and a few heads appeared (the neighborhood has "changed") and I walked a bit up and down the street in spite of the freeway noise. "authoritive" decidedly.

So I'll be glad to test this anyway that can be contrived to provide good feedback about validity of the design for those curious to learn from the whole build/real time testing scene
there's nobody to tell me NO! it's too loud and my kid works nights.
And if Kevin actually makes it over here, we can use some of his experience.

And about the time align, when I put my 24" BF THTLP alongside the FR speaker, in a corner pointing at the ceiling (8 ft) , the audessey2EQ, 6 positions, on the (now dead) Onkyo 270 set its distance to 24 feet. and the room is < 10 x 11.

Max will be in the living room so there's a few better placement options.
when I show some folks the pictures , I also have a picture of the "plans" about the size of a postcard. I wait to see the looks on the faces . . .

So having said "all that " lets move on to the next phase.
I'll check the distance possibilities in the 775 wrt to sub distance, I think I saw the max distance as 80 feet for speakers. should be able to do something with that much "room"

Its all good.

just to fool with peoples heads, I compare this to their refrigerator. You got a big 25 cu. ft reefer? this thing is 50% BIGGER. LOL

what I've liked best about pulling this off is having the time to keep it square and dimensionally true. minimal edge "beltsanding" adjustments . Yeah, I built a box . . .

time for MAX to speak up

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post #288 of 560 Old 04-29-2014, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post

Would testing it outside be "valid" WRT to a lack of "roomgain" I can position it kinda coming out of or into a corner or pointing straight out from the garage wall or tucked in close alongside that wall like in the picture or like I did with the BF subs and point it AT the wall (distance suggestions) and run it as a 2.1 system.
And the 22 GardenSnail Freeway got moved CLOSER when they re-did it so "background" levels are noticeably above 45Db.

....

So I'll be glad to test this anyway that can be contrived to provide good feedback about validity of the design for those curious to learn from the whole build/real time testing scene
there's nobody to tell me NO! it's too loud and my kid works nights.
And if Kevin actually makes it over here, we can use some of his experience.

Testing in 1/2 space (outside with no boundaries) is actually preferred because we can easily adjust the model to simulate 1/2 space performance.

For this kind of validation, you really only need 20 to 30dB of SNR to get an accurate frequency response....cranking it up to 75dB shouldn't be a problem at all. I usually do my outdoor sweeps at ~100dB or so.

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post #289 of 560 Old 04-29-2014, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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"Would testing it outside be "valid" WRT to a lack of "roomgain""

yes. a few simple frequency response sweeps with the mic in front of the mouth of the horn, perhaps sitting on the ground if that is possible.

1. mic flush with front of cab.
2. mic a few inches in front of cab.
3. mic 1 meter in front of cab.
4. mic 2 meters in front of cab.
5. if you have a way to measure the impedance, that would be useful too.

if you have a way to check the input voltage during the sweeps, that would also be useful (but isn't terribly important).

to the extent that it is possible, minimize effects from other boundaries. measure away from walls/structures/etc. for example.

no need to go terribly loud with these sweeps or try to max things out, but ensure that they are loud enough to overcome as much of the background noise as possible.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #290 of 560 Old 04-29-2014, 01:43 PM
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Without formal testing... I can assure you it will sound good... How could it not....

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post #291 of 560 Old 04-29-2014, 06:00 PM
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OK I'll have to sort and print this all out for a in--flight check list and for lining up the ducks. I expect a bit extra time spent on the learning curve so there are (always) a few questions

The best open space I have could be on my driveway facing south with the garagedoor to the west at about 20 ft or so and nothing else except for houses across the street and a short 3 ft block fence about 8-10 feet behind.

Friday would be a good day because the driveway will be cleared of the boat and truck and I can park down the street. there would be a 40 ft RV parked directly in front about 35ft or so away. and the kid will be gone so I can get an early start on the set up. I saw that chalugadp has a quick link for REW and i'm somewhat familiar with "standardized set parameters" by John M from over at HTS. sweeps as I recall are usually 20 to 200 for subs, I'll have to unhook my onkyo 160 and disable settings and such

your( (ANYBODY) input can't hurt suggestions of sweep ranges and such

I have a 325 gig portable usb drive that'll be clean for collecting data and will also take pictures, but really, a mike on the ground is a mike on the ground: show me the response charts.

do I want to save only raw charts and then depending on what we see, make them available to those more capable of manipulation for a more finessed understanding of what the heck I did

For impedance and voltage would I be hooking up a DMM on the leads at the speaker attachement? or output from the amp? being a bit unsure of the tweaking of the inuke, would the BASH 300 still be "adequate" for a first run at this? its got voltage

Will REW record an impedance sweep? or only for certain freg's?

I have mostly all day Friday to fuss with this so I can save all the data but on Saturday I'm driving up to visit my son and his crew of fishermen so I may not post anything until sunday,
even retired guys need a day of "rest" (yeah . . .riiiiiiight!)

This is absolutely fascinating to me, not just for building which its only my 4th build (I do have 2 thumbs) , but to get the input from and valid data to the guy that dreamed this up.
What could possibly happen? maybe more awesome designs . . .

and then there is the second phase after I put it in the house . . .
stlll, compared to putting a man on the moon, a good challenge
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L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
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post #292 of 560 Old 04-29-2014, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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definitely take the sweeps down to 10hz. the low corner on the response should be around15-16hz. just don't go crazy loud with no high pass filtering in place.

dmm on leads at sub or at amp should only differ by the wire resistance, which should be minimal.

the bash 300 amp has a built in high pass, so if you can use something else, we might get a better sense of the low end performance vs. model.

10 volts at a nominal 4 ohms is 10^2/4 = 25 watts. at 3.2 dcr, it is about 33 watts. excursion even with no high pass filter at all will be only about 7mm at that power level, so should be safe. 10 volts would be pretty darn loud though with the upper end of the bass getting up around 115db @1m. the bottom end will only be around 105db or so, which with all the ambient noise might be required to get a clean sweep.

and most importantly...thank you again!

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post #293 of 560 Old 04-29-2014, 09:04 PM
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laying the ground work
the sub goes where the green trash can sits



and this gives me input to the inuke from a RCA sub cable



if I have a 4 wire speakon connector for my output, to which 2 terminals do I attach my speaker wire?

DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS V2, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x 6000DSP
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post #294 of 560 Old 04-30-2014, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post

laying the ground work
the sub goes where the green trash can sits



and this gives me input to the inuke from a RCA sub cable



if I have a 4 wire speakon connector for my output, to which 2 terminals do I attach my speaker wire?

4 Pole speakon?

+1 -1 under normal operation.
+1 +2 if you are using a pro amp and briding it (inuke / ep4000 etc)

Edit : also awesome build, looking forward to impressions / measurements / whatever else you can enlighten us with biggrin.gif
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post #295 of 560 Old 04-30-2014, 10:53 AM
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I found a few more hours to spend doing the homework so I can get up that curve.
I got the 6K ready so I should probably plug into the other laptop and take a look around. I had completely forgotten about that "advanced" aspect (at least to me )
I'd rather not blow things up right out of the gate . . .

edit
1. had to re-do fan mod wiring, NBD, both run now
2.finished install and update on 2nd laptop and 6k
3. speakon wired up for 1 channel
4. onkyo amp reset everything to off
5. REW updated on 2nd laptop

will mke print out of recommended procedures, etc.

otherwise, open to basic suggestions and enhancements

thank you

DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS V2, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x 6000DSP
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post #296 of 560 Old 05-01-2014, 08:40 AM
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WHAT SHOULD I DO? INUKE FILTER QUESTION!

Do I need this? a while back I got the "2 step" filter setting instructions that seem to cover the "basics" as a starting point wrt to dialing in sub performance INSIDE.

since we're NOT inside for this attempt at data collection

WHAT IS RECOMMENDED ?

thank you

DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS V2, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x 6000DSP
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post #297 of 560 Old 05-01-2014, 12:51 PM
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For your outside "prove the design" type measurements, don't use any filters. Just keep the volume in check. As long as you're not feeding the driver too much power, you aren't going to hurt it. Once you get it indoors for actual use, then you can spend the time setting up the high pass filters, etc.
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post #298 of 560 Old 05-01-2014, 02:06 PM
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thanks, I'll do a "reset"

DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS V2, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x 6000DSP
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post #299 of 560 Old 05-03-2014, 11:59 AM
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Short DATA ( read its a start) set: the best laid plans. . . things were TOO hot to be In a good location , there were vehicles in the way and , reflections made the laptop crazy to use, xo with 535 is 80, I may have killed my last onkyo, need to redo wiring to be able to get DMM better in the line, TOO HOT 85+, over coming noobness

Thanks to Kevings who has some pictures to post


I meter 10-200
.
18 inches

1 meter

at horn


I'll be back!
edit: is there way to post these "raw" charts so they can be downloaded and used by more capable analysts? I can always try sending them through some other route.

as I wont get the thing moved into the house this weekend, if the weather isn't sweltering, i'll redo the whole setup in a better location, at the other end of the driveway , get the DMM in the line and try to follow the suggestions in a more reliable useful data producing re-test.

DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS V2, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x 6000DSP
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post #300 of 560 Old 05-05-2014, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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looks like the low end is loading outdoors which is encouraging. there were some questions if that was just going to fall off or not in 2 pi space.

there is a little bit more ripple than I was expecting. this is the uxl driver, right? current/older model? once placed in room, the room will mess up even the best response in most cases, so it's not really a problem, just a curiosity.

Listen. It's All Good.
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