Coaxials: Another DIY Group Project. - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 681Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 7,410
Mentioned: 310 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1902 Post(s)
Liked: 2737
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

This would make an excellent desk top speaker (although I'd probably prefer a dome tweeter coax). I've been preaching the coax or full ranger on a desktop matra for years. It's the best desktop solution I know of IMO. Build them sealed and use the computer to LT the bass response. In the nearfield, you can crank the 40-80hz octave way up without issue.


There aren't any 6" models that will get down that low in a small sealed box.

_______________________
The SEOS Waveguide Project
Erich H is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 10:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,344
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1809 Post(s)
Liked: 1501
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Maybe even high pass the coax to make it a 3 way if cone modulation affected the tweeter response to much. That can be extremely critical with coaxials, which is something I haven't seen discussed all that much.
Always HPF it to the coax. I've had many of the classic Tannoy's and a few others and they invariably sound better with the LF/MB removed from them. I've been discussing it for at least 15 years since I first tried it.

“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
A9X-308 is offline  
post #33 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 10:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 7,988
Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked: 2230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

There aren't any 6" models that will get down that low in a small sealed box.

Not according to the box sim. That's why you LT it with your computer. I've done it lots. It works great. 80hz F3 is more than enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Always HPF it to the coax. I've had many of the classic Tannoy's and a few others and they invariably sound better with the LF/MB removed from them. I've been discussing it for at least 15 years since I first tried it.

Good to know. I had a hunch.

My youtube channel: Impulse Audio
tuxedocivic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 11:00 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ChopShop1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: CT
Posts: 2,427
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 327 Post(s)
Liked: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I think you're right that a lot of DIY'ers do build with this mentallity. But where I see a problem is that this doesn't relate to DIYsoundGroup in any way (Erich can correct me if I'm out to lunch).

1. The group buy funds can't support such extravagent builds;
2. Builds like this deserve complex in-room measuring and consideration of the room;
3. 99% of the time they're active;
4. The most important, at this level, everyone has their own idea of what the speaker should be. Regarding the SEOS24, you chose 4 x 15" AE woofers. Face chose 2 x 15" AE woofers in a cardioid box. If I did something like that, I'd use 4x18" B&C woofers, two of which would b in separate boxes for placing in corners. And on it goes. All using the SEOS 24, but all so very very different.

It's hard to make a one speaker fits all at that level of DIY. Especially since about 10 a year would sell. The Catalyst would out sell it by miles, because it's a commercial product and doesn't require a crappy paint job.

If someone wants to build a wicked no compromise high end build, they should DIY, or ask someone with the design chops to help them, like you did.

All good points. I think my point takes more effect when talking about things like the Beyma experiment that Beast is doing. I think a lot of guys like myself would buya $350 or $400 kit like that for surrounds on Noesis systems, Danley systems, Seaton Cat systems, even things like the sentinel or Tempest. A lot of us use Sentinel sized surrounds because we have the room, but some don't and I bet they'd spend a few hundo for a speaker design like that. I'm also pretty confident in the skills you guys have based on the designs I've built/heard. I think a design with a grand or less as the proposed selling point could do well against larger commercial designs. Maybe the single 15 or dual 12 with the higher end coax is only 80% of a Catalyst, but a third the cost. Like the Tux1099....I can't wait to hear those and you did them based on a lesser expensive set of drivers. What if you had another $200 per speaker in parts, or $300 per. I'd finance ventures like that in a heartbeat and once interest was gauged, you could see about supply...or even just use components that will be readily available and get lesser quantity discounts. who knows, I'm just babbling, and obviously don't know what you guys do...I just can't help but think that more are thinking like I am
ChopShop1 is offline  
post #35 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 7,410
Mentioned: 310 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1902 Post(s)
Liked: 2737
Guys, I did mention that cost on these models will not matter too much and that I'm hoping for a broad price range. Actually, cost on the SEOS speakers doesn't matter either. It just so happens that the Karma and Fusion line got done first. There will still be much more expensive speakers coming. And some members did ask for higher end completed boxes, which I'm looking into.

Same with these coaxials. There really isn't a pricing limit once it's all said and done. Obviously the budget stuff would come first because it's easier to get and would fit more people. But there will definitely be some higher end stuff worked on.

_______________________
The SEOS Waveguide Project
Erich H is offline  
post #36 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 11:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 7,988
Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked: 2230
Erich, does the Pro Audio scene interest you? I'd love to make some monitors with a decent coax and woofer. Would make for an excellent stage monitor, surround, mains, center channel, you name it. Lots of flexibility. I mentioned to you in a PM that I've been thinking about building some PA speakers for concerts and such, as rental costs do add up. Your kits are 95% of the way there.

My youtube channel: Impulse Audio
tuxedocivic is offline  
post #37 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 12:17 PM
 
MD28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Guys, I did mention that cost on these models will not matter too much and that I'm hoping for a broad price range. Actually, cost on the SEOS speakers doesn't matter either. It just so happens that the Karma and Fusion line got done first. There will still be much more expensive speakers coming. And some members did ask for higher end completed boxes, which I'm looking into.

Same with these coaxials. There really isn't a pricing limit once it's all said and done. Obviously the budget stuff would come first because it's easier to get and would fit more people. But there will definitely be some higher end stuff worked on.

this is exactly what i wanted to hear! im all for the higher end builds. can you get phl drivers? i hate compromise. nothing against the budget builds but... im the type that would rather wait for something great than buy knowing i couldve gotten something out ther better. sometimes... ignorance is bliss

MD28 is offline  
post #38 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 01:39 PM
Senior Member
 
Antripodean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Antripodes (OZ)
Posts: 332
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 12
PHL is out of business far as I know.

explore the music
Antripodean is offline  
post #39 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 01:55 PM
 
MD28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

PHL is out of business far as I know.

if they went out... thats crazy. focal builds their drivers from my understanding.

MD28 is offline  
post #40 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 02:45 PM
Member
 
BeeTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
I'll be very interested to see how this develops.

I've always been intrigued by coaxials.

smile.gif
BeeTL is offline  
post #41 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 02:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 7,988
Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2301 Post(s)
Liked: 2230
BeeTL, are you a luthier? I recognize your username from somewhere, and the guitar looks custom.
BeeTL likes this.

My youtube channel: Impulse Audio
tuxedocivic is offline  
post #42 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 04:34 PM
Member
 
BeeTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

BeeTL, are you a luthier? I recognize your username from somewhere, and the guitar looks custom.

I build custom guitars...Lowe Custom Guitars.

 

I'm active on a number of forums with this username.

 

:)

BeeTL is offline  
post #43 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 04:41 PM
Advanced Member
 
mhutchins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 990
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 269 Post(s)
Liked: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

Can you elaborate on how poor mouth termination manifests itself in speaker performance? How would one recognize an issue related to unsatisfactory mouth termination when viewing on axis frequency response or polar plots?

Although this does not answer the questions you posed, it is relevant. I read a post by Tom Danley from several years ago that he auditioned a large number of 8" coax drivers before he settled on the B&C 8CX21. He mentioned that this speaker had the best transition area between the CD and the horn. This speaker might make a decent midvalue unit between the Eminence series and something like the Beymas.

Mike
mhutchins is online now  
post #44 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 05:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
RickD1225's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 1,388
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 308 Post(s)
Liked: 1394
Erich, I don't know if boxes or flatpacks are so important since most of DIYers can build the boxes. Most would like the front baffles done though. It takes more skill and tools to do those especially with WGs. I would certainly be interested in a higher end offering. I can't say I got interested in DIY for low cost it was the pleasure of doing the build and enjoying the results. Usually when I get hooked I go whole hog. I am about to do a Tempest build ( waiting to sell some old gear for the funds), but I won't be stopping there I am sure.

Spoiler!
RickD1225 is offline  
post #45 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 06:44 PM
Senior Member
 
lemans24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Mississauga,Ontario
Posts: 329
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD1225 View Post

Erich, I don't know if boxes or flatpacks are so important since most of DIYers can build the boxes. Most would like the front baffles done though. It takes more skill and tools to do those especially with WGs. I would certainly be interested in a higher end offering. I can't say I got interested in DIY for low cost it was the pleasure of doing the build and enjoying the results. Usually when I get hooked I go whole hog. I am about to do a Tempest build ( waiting to sell some old gear for the funds), but I won't be stopping there I am sure.
I can't speak for most DIYers but one of the biggest reasons beyond pricing is that EricH offers flat packs and assembled crossovers, making
building a complete speaker/subwoofer way more easy. In fact you don't have to be DIYer to build these kits, expanding the sales potential hugely!!
This is great business sense for EricH and you can still make your own cabinet and assemble your own crossover...like a true DIYer.
lemans24 is offline  
post #46 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 7,410
Mentioned: 310 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1902 Post(s)
Liked: 2737
I ordered a couple 8" B&C and Faital Pro coaxials today. Any reason to consider some 10" models? If so, which ones?

There was some talk in the old threads about a "D8" that had one 8" coaxial over an 8" woofer. Is that something we should still consider? One thing I drew out a couple months ago was an 8" coaxial over an even larger woofer. Looked interesting, but I'm not sure there's much reason to do that versus a waveguide over a larger woofer. Of course there's always a reason to 'just do it' because we want to see what happens. biggrin.gif
Rebel975 likes this.

_______________________
The SEOS Waveguide Project
Erich H is offline  
post #47 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 08:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JohnDean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Franklin, TN
Posts: 1,433
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 551 Post(s)
Liked: 260
8cxn51?
JohnDean is offline  
post #48 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 09:18 PM
 
Linh27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

8cxn51?

I sure hope so.
Linh27 is offline  
post #49 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 09:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mikela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,103
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 450 Post(s)
Liked: 638
mikela is offline  
post #50 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 09:37 PM
Member
 
servojohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikela View Post

BMS 8CN552

I'd certainly look into the BMS coaxials along with B&C and Faital, especially if a pro audio bend is where the design is heading. I've used 12" B&C and BMS coaxials for many years primarily as stage monitors, although they also will do duty as small mains up on stands if need be. My avatar is one of my BMS wedge cabinets unfinished in Baltic Birch. My friend Curtis List in Michigan did the passive crossover design.

Best regards,

John
mikela likes this.
servojohn is offline  
post #51 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 09:45 PM
 
Linh27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikela View Post

BMS 8CN552

I like the looks of the B&C and Faital Pro coaxials better because of the dust cap. It looks more high end,
Linh27 is offline  
post #52 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 09:55 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 23,100
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2155 Post(s)
Liked: 793
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

The problem is that the really good answers to the hard problems, such as mouth termination, are either corporate secrets or locked up as proprietary IP by companies that don't offer drivers to hobbyists.

Not sure I understand; what about the B&C's that Danley and Seaton have used?

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #53 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 10:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mikela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,103
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 450 Post(s)
Liked: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linh27 View Post

I like the looks of the B&C and Faital Pro coaxials better because of the dust cap. It looks more high end,

I believe the BMS has a dust cap...not that it matters to me what it looks like.
mikela is offline  
post #54 of 1754 Old 01-27-2014, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 7,410
Mentioned: 310 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1902 Post(s)
Liked: 2737
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

8cxn51?

I figured I try the 8FCX51 first. The response curves are quite similar.

_______________________
The SEOS Waveguide Project
Erich H is offline  
post #55 of 1754 Old 01-28-2014, 12:16 AM
Senior Member
 
awedio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 203
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

PHL is out of business far as I know.

Nope, PHL Audio is still in business. I spoke to someone in France last week.

I'm not aware of any PHL distro's in the US
awedio is offline  
post #56 of 1754 Old 01-28-2014, 09:43 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Face2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,410
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by awedio View Post

Nope, PHL Audio is still in business. I spoke to someone in France last week.

I'm not aware of any PHL distro's in the US
Zalytron was: http://zalytron.com/
Face2 is offline  
post #57 of 1754 Old 01-28-2014, 10:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JohnDean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Franklin, TN
Posts: 1,433
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 551 Post(s)
Liked: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I figured I try the 8FCX51 first. The response curves are quite similar.

Hmmm. I missed that one. It looks like the major difference is the ferrite vs Neodymium magnets which I'm guessing accounts for the price difference. Looking forward to how this turns out.
JohnDean is offline  
post #58 of 1754 Old 01-28-2014, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 7,410
Mentioned: 310 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1902 Post(s)
Liked: 2737
I also ordered some custom coaxials that might be interesting.

_______________________
The SEOS Waveguide Project
Erich H is offline  
post #59 of 1754 Old 01-28-2014, 02:16 PM
Senior Member
 
Antripodean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Antripodes (OZ)
Posts: 332
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by awedio View Post

Nope, PHL Audio is still in business. I spoke to someone in France last week.

Good to hear smile.gif

explore the music
Antripodean is offline  
post #60 of 1754 Old 01-29-2014, 04:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,020
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1296 Post(s)
Liked: 741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

However, I agree the WG approach should be better.

To be sure, I prefer concentrics. However, if reliable driver supply is an issue, IMO the currently available concentrics just aren't that good. If reliable and consistent supply is not at issue, then one can wait for those Pioneer-TAD CSTs or KEF R-Series Uni-Q's or Tannoy Dual Concentrics to pop up for sale.

That said, there's an concentric driver available from a German supplier I find interesting. I haven't seen measurements - still waiting for the K+T Archiv DVD I ordered in November - but it looks like it has a smooth transition and a phase plug on the tweeter. A WCW with the DIYSG Anarchy midwoofer might be a fun speaker. Erich, if you want more info, PM me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD28 View Post

if the seos is better than any coaxil design... why isnt mark seaton using waveguides? his monitors are far superior compared to a seos. of course, a lot more expensive to. like others, im interested in a design very similar to mr. seaton's design

Well...good waveguides were not readily available when Mark designed the Catalyst. Also, a good speaker designer can take a flawed driver and make a wonderful speaker out of it. While I’ve not heard Mark’s speakers, their reputation is superb even though the B&C concentric is a solid half-step behind the KEF, TAD/Pioneer, and Tannoy devices. He also has the DSP horsepower to do whatever he wants with it.

Another speaker made from a sub-par concentric driver that I’ve heard and judged a superior reproducer is the Gradient Revolution, which uses a variant of the 7” Seas concentric with a fiberglass (“G” in Seas-ese) cone rather than the translucent poly (“T”) cone of the stock models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Doing speakers that are similar is interesting. Like the 8" coax with an 8" woofer that I mentioned. ***

There actually is a speaker similar to that: the KEF Q900. Sure, it’s too big and it has those annoying PRs and that crossover could use some improvement (steeper slopes and a notch filter on the woofer). But frankly if one wants an elite-grade speaker based on a concentric driver, buying a pair of KEF Q900s, throwing away the cabs, selling the PR’s, and engineering a 3-way crossover might just be the most cost-effective way to go (!). FWIW, my nearfield monitors use those concentrics, with this measured performance:

0-90%2520%252B%2520Polar.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

Can you elaborate on how poor mouth termination manifests itself in speaker performance? How would one recognize an issue related to unsatisfactory mouth termination when viewing on axis frequency response or polar plots?

HF roughness, subjective "nasal" quality to the treble as things get louder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Maybe even high pass the coax to make it a 3 way if cone modulation affected the tweeter response to much. That can be extremely critical with coaxials, which is something I haven't seen discussed all that much.
Always HPF it to the coax. I've had many of the classic Tannoy's and a few others and they invariably sound better with the LF/MB removed from them. I've been discussing it for at least 15 years since I first tried it.

FWIW, I found it necessary to throw a highpass on 8" concentrics even in a nearfield system. However, in my previous home I ran 12" Tannoy duals full-range ("LFE + Main") in fairly small closed boxes, and heard no issues. Perhaps those who listen very loudly would need to highpass larger concentrics, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhutchins View Post

Although this does not answer the questions you posed, it is relevant. I read a post by Tom Danley from several years ago that he auditioned a large number of 8" coax drivers before he settled on the B&C 8CX21. He mentioned that this speaker had the best transition area between the CD and the horn. This speaker might make a decent midvalue unit between the Eminence series and something like the Beymas.

There's the obvious caveat in Mr. Danley's coment: "of those available on the hobbyist/OEM market."

Also, my experience with Beyma is that they are not going to equal the B&Cs, let alone exceed them, regardless of price.

--
"In many cases there aren’t two sides unless one side is 'reality' and the other is 'nonsense.'" - Phil Plait
Serious Audio Blog 
DS-21 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off