Coaxials: Another DIY Group Project. - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 1754 Old 01-29-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


There actually is a speaker similar to that: the KEF Q900. Sure, it’s too big and it has those annoying PRs and that crossover could use some improvement (steeper slopes and a notch filter on the woofer). But frankly if one wants an elite-grade speaker based on a concentric driver, buying a pair of KEF Q900s, throwing away the cabs, selling the PR’s, and engineering a 3-way crossover might just be the most cost-effective way to go (!). FWIW, my nearfield monitors use those concentrics, with this measured performance:

0-90%2520%252B%2520Polar.jpg

I listened to a pair of q900s a couple years ago. I think I discussed with Pallas that I could hear woofer break up. Otherwise quite a nice speaker. I think these were retail priced at $2k iirc. I think the salesman was ready to price them at $1300 or something. I didn't have the heart to tell him I was wasting his time. Your nearfield speakers sure look to be performers.

Regardless, I think my plan is fairly different. Several db more sensitive and half the cabinet size at least. And using pro audio components.

Nice post. I appreciate your feedback on this subject since you have experience with coaxials. If you were to buy an off the shelf coax today, what would you pick?

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post #62 of 1754 Old 01-29-2014, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Also, my experience with Beyma is that they are not going to equal the B&Cs, let alone exceed them, regardless of price.

I only mentioned the Beymas as there is a lot of discussion in another thread about the merits of this driver. I have never personally auditioned anything but the Eminence coaxials, so I have no basis for comparison. Just parroting what I have gathered 2nd hand off the net. redface.gif

I was strongly considering the B&C coax drivers, but they were just out of my price range for surround duty. I may revisit them when I start my development of height/wide speakers for the front sound stage.

Thanks for you input!

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post #63 of 1754 Old 01-29-2014, 07:01 PM
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I believe Beastaudio would vouch for the Beyma's as an excellent coax driver and every bit as good as the B&C units.
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post #64 of 1754 Old 01-29-2014, 07:07 PM
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I'll toss in this to the discussion.. The "goodness" of a given driver depends on what you're doing with it and how you're applying it. You can't just say driver X is better than Y without the context of how it's being integrated into the overall system.
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post #65 of 1754 Old 01-29-2014, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Nice post. I appreciate your feedback on this subject since you have experience with coaxials. If you were to buy an off the shelf coax today, what would you pick?

In all honesty, assuming a narrowish-pattern high-efficiency speaker, a SEOS 'guide and separate woofer, or lurk on eBay and studio audio sites for someone to offer a pair of Tannoy DMT-series. The latter is what I did for a few years after surveying the concentric drivers available to hobbyists and buying a few of them.

That said, if Celestion is offering concentrics now those are worth exploring considering that the same people design Celestion drivers and KEF Uni-Qs. But until this thread I didn't even know those existed, so I have no experience playing with them or (knowingly) even hearing them. Also, Erich's resourcefulness is astounding, so who knows what rabbits are under his proverbial cap. (Though again there's a ~3" concentric out there that might work great flanked by two Anarchies.)
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I believe Beastaudio would vouch for the Beyma's as an excellent coax driver and every bit as good as the B&C units.

You mean that contraption with an unterminated horn jutting out of the pole piece and dangling in front of the woofer? Perhaps they have their uses as stage monitors or whatever, but for reproduction of music in the home...I'll leave those to other people. Even then, what I don't get about Beyma is why their drivers are so expensive. They tend to not be as well-engineered as competitive B&C or BMS drivers, but they almost always cost more.

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post #66 of 1754 Old 01-29-2014, 08:06 PM
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Too bad Celestion's new coaxes really don't look that impressive. http://celestion.com/product/139/k12h100tc/ http://celestion.com/product/138/k12h200tc/

Where could one find a 3" concentric?
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post #67 of 1754 Old 01-29-2014, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Though again there's a ~3" concentric out there that might work great flanked by two Anarchies.

Is that a typo?

If not, what size is the tweeter?

Also if not, not sure I see the point.

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post #68 of 1754 Old 01-29-2014, 08:41 PM
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Too bad Celestion's new coaxes really don't look that impressive. http://celestion.com/product/139/k12h100tc/ http://celestion.com/product/138/k12h200tc/

That looks like some weird whizzer cone thing with a dustcap atop the whizzer's edge. Here's the concentric: http://celestion.com/product/120/tf1225cx/

I'd be curious to see real measurements of it. Maybe it's not any better than the competition from B&C, BMS, Beyma, Ciare, etc., let alone the Tannoys.
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Where could one find a 3" concentric?

The one I'm curious about and that might make a surprisingly powerful little speaker with twin Anarchies is sold as the "Omnes Audio CX 3.0" in the EU. No idea who makes it, though the company marketing it is Germany's TangBand distributor.

omnescx3front1.jpg?w=560&h=600&DokuWiki=69f68f38267648b06ae65bd0f1490384

Nobody I know of in the US stocks it. They were backordered when I was in Vienna last fall, otherwise I would've bought a couple.

KEF also makes one. They sell it in their 1005-series eggs. It looks great, with a basket that's a scale-model of the TC Sounds LMS part and a neo motor. Performance-wise it's nothing special, but I've only played with it using the stock crossover. And the crossover is fairly simplistic, because after all we're talking about five metal eggs and a sub for $500. It's also a pre-Tangerine phase plug design. Unlike the Omnes driver above, the KEF one also tries to be a full-ranger.

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post #69 of 1754 Old 01-29-2014, 08:48 PM
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Another small option: http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/seas-prestige-l12re/xfc-h1602-5-alum/fabric-coaxial/

Not exactly cheap and the crossover doesn't appear to suppress the breakup well. One would have to take more measurements to find out if it's "good enough".
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post #70 of 1754 Old 01-29-2014, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been looking for some beefier models with compression drivers, but I'll also look into some smaller stuff as well.

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post #71 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

Another small option: http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/seas-prestige-l12re/xfc-h1602-5-alum/fabric-coaxial/

Not exactly cheap and the crossover doesn't appear to suppress the breakup well. One would have to take more measurements to find out if it's "good enough".

Might be worth exploring at a hundred dollars less. At that price though, for a DIYer it would be worth trying to source a known good one. One attraction of that German one is the low price.
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I've been looking for some beefier models with compression drivers, but I'll also look into some smaller stuff as well.

IMO, it will be a challenge to approach the performance of your SEOS-based designs for home use with any concentric assembled from compression drivers tooled to be used on fixed waveguides.

That said, if you do press on, consider that the best current concentrics (Tannoy Duals and current KEF Uni-Qs) extend the phase plug all the way to the mouth of the driver. I wonder if Tannoy's 'Tulip" patents are expired...

Again, I really like the idea of a small concentric that would work with your existing inventory of Anarchy midwoofers. Smaller speakers with good polars and lots of volume displacement down low just fit in more rooms.

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post #72 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 11:43 AM
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I like the Anarchy idea as well.

The benefit of concentric a over SEOS in the home environment is flipping it sideways for centers. That's not a small advantage, its a huge advantage.

How old is the Tulip coaxials? I thought they were less than a decade.

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post #73 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 11:51 AM
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Agree a really good concentric supported by a decent woofer could make great surrounds, or a decent "TV system". I've been thinking about concentrics for a casual TV.

Regarding the Omnes datasheet, any idea why the tweeter response above 10k looks so different when measured separately?
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post #74 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 12:09 PM
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Regarding the Omnes datasheet, any idea why the tweeter response above 10k looks so different when measured separately?

What do you mean? The off axis behaviour?

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post #75 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 12:09 PM
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I like the Anarchy idea as well.

The benefit of concentric a over SEOS in the home environment is flipping it sideways for centers. That's not a small advantage, its a huge advantage.

I do that now. Compared to a horizontal SEOS it is definitely a better answer. It's not a perfect match, which is apparent on 3-channel orchestral recordings on SACD and even some rock DVD-As and SACDs. For TV or movies, it's fine.

But that only applies to small (≤ 8") concentrics. A big concentric wouldn't be allow a shorter cabinet than than some of the SEOS designs, such as the Daniel and the Big Mal.
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How old is the Tulip coaxials? I thought they were less than a decade.

Time flies. The DMT series studio monitors and the Definition-series home speakers came out in the early 1990s I think. Mark Dodd left Tannoy in 1994.
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Regarding the Omnes datasheet, any idea why the tweeter response above 10k looks so different when measured separately?

One graph is the midrange alone, the other is the tweeter alone. The midrange extends to ~10kHz on axis, though obviously a well-designed system would cross over much earlier.

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post #76 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 12:21 PM
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One graph is the midrange alone, the other is the tweeter alone. The midrange extends to ~10kHz on axis

Ah, that makes sense.
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post #77 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 01:19 PM
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.. it will be a challenge to approach the performance of your SEOS-based designs for home use with any concentric assembled from compression drivers tooled to be used on fixed waveguides.

Still would like a response re the B&C's; good enough for Danley/Seaton but not for us?

Or that we don't have the wherewithal to implement as well?

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post #78 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 02:05 PM
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Is there really no way to get ahold of some kef uni's?
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post #79 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 02:54 PM
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Is there really no way to get ahold of some kef uni's?
Buy the appropriate in-walls from Kef and re-purpose them.
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post #80 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 03:31 PM
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Still would like a response re the B&C's; good enough for Danley/Seaton but not for us?

Or that we don't have the wherewithal to implement as well?

The B&C's are probably the best concentrics reliably available to DIYers and companies that rely on OEM drivers. My experience with the 8CX21 is that the 8" Tannoys are considerably better and the KEF Q900 driver is the best 8" concentric I've played with by a large margin.

That said, I'm a hobbyist. As I mentioned, the Seas concentrics are fairly flawed drivers, but the Gradient Revolution system is one of the few commercial loudspeakers I'd be happy owning.
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Buy the appropriate in-walls from Kef and re-purpose them.

Current ones use notably lesser drivers. Look at the "200" model in-wall vs. the Q900, and just from looks the differences will be obvious. That said, I'm curious to see how the upcoming Ci200RR-THX compares with the Q900 driver. I'll probably pick one up when they're for sale.

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post #81 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 04:04 PM
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In the Danley case and the B&C he's generally always horn loading it to some degree for his applications as well as the intended end result is aimed for a different purpose. From that perspective he's probably looking for certain qualities that would make it "good" for what he's trying to do that probably aren't the same that the audience here is when we say driver X is "better" than Y. Better how? That's why I say unless looking at whatever the end "system" is making claims one driver is better than another is just fun but no real value.

From an interested outsider looking in and following along the similar approach I see from Danley and Seaton are they seem to identify the problem and then look for the solution. i.e. not looking for some miracle driver to build something around rather having a problem or use case and then taking the tools available (or sometimes inventing new ones along the way) to solve whatever the problem was. In the end that may not end up being an assortment of drivers that are the sexiest on their own yet the end result is the solution to the problem.

The end result isn't always the sum of it's parts so to speak.
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post #82 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 04:15 PM
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In the Danley case and the B&C he's generally always horn loading it to some degree for his applications as well as the intended end result is aimed for a different purpose.

For these purposes the horn-loading is irrelevant, except that one could argue the SH100/SM100 might make the concentric mid move less in the upper bass due to the horn loading. The different purpose (PA vs. home audio) is a point well taken.
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That's why I say unless looking at whatever the end "system" is making claims one driver is better than another is just fun but no real value.***

No offense, but your comments read as though they were written by someone who hasn't actually listened to the various parts in the context of a system designed to reproduce music in a small room using a concentric driver for MF/HF and possibly lower.

However, the one example that does fit your narrative is Danley's flat-out brilliant use of the BMS concentric in their SM60F/SM60M. The mouth termination is a non-issue because they create a new "mouth" for the WG by sealing the driver's snout to the Synergy horn and "trapping" the cone in a 4th order bandpass cabinet that feeds into the horn further down. But otherwise, we're just talking about concentric drivers used as standalone parts for MF/HF reproduction and possibly lower.

(Speaking of Danley, hope all involved came out from this storm OK!)

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post #83 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 04:54 PM
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zamboniman, I don't think anyone here is just trying to piece together parts that perform well and expect results. The "problem" is surround use and horizontal centers. It's no surprise coaxials would be high on the list as a way to fix that problem. But as DS21 said, if you actually listen to these devices, they come with some warts that need to be discussed/considered. The biggest wart of all is the nasty HF response due to the compression driver throat to cone transition. It would be nice if there were advancements in this area (accessable to us hobbyists) to make the problem go away, but there aren't. So it comes down to picking the best...

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post #84 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 05:28 PM
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No offense, but your comments read as though they were written by someone who hasn't actually used the various parts in the context of a system designed to reproduce music in a small room.

I'd say you over read into my comment wink.gif your assumption is incorrect though but that's not the point here. I was just tossing in some alternative ways to look at it here. I disagree though if you're going to do something with the driver (like horn loading it) that may augment it in some way or change the overall result then perhaps a strength it has over another may not be something obvious or otherwise overlooked if using in a more traditional system.

Simply without taking the enclosure alignment, crossover work, and how it's intended to be used into account.... it's a stretch to say one's better than the other.

I think it's generally accepted that the B&C does the better job at the transition that others. I'll toss this into the mix.. It would be important to look at offaxis response perhaps even moreso than onaxis.

End of the day I'm not trying to argue anything here. I'm a fan of concentrics/coax. I have them in my theater. They do have their own compromises that must be considered yet they also have strengths. Primarily tossing some points into the discussion hoping to help or at least spin some thought since I actually have messed around with these in a limited fashion. My opinion is that to a degree the "nastiness" of the HF can be tamed in real world use (perhaps less so on measurements). Since it hasn't been discussed here I'll finish with another point to consider that I feel is pretty significant. Controlling excursion of the woofer. The more you can minimize that the less HF nasties you'll have to deal with increasing volume. Hence seeing them in 3 way systems and like you mentioned having good results with higher crossover points.

Carry on .. I'm a fan of the mission.


As a side note as I've been picking away at a response on the side while doing something that actually pays my bills.. you've been adding a lot more detail to your response making some of what I typed probably irrelevant LOL biggrin.gif
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post #85 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not looking for these coaxials to best the SEOS speakers. I think it's just another option for people to pick from.

I got some neat stuff today from DHL, but haven't had time to go through it yet.
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post #86 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 05:37 PM
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Actually now that I reread your edited comments I think we agree more than anything or at least reinforced what what I was trying to say and probably better.. cool.gif

One small clarification that may or may not have been clear was my use of "system" was meaning the completed speaker and not a full sound system or room etc..

Noticed you picked up on the minimizing cone excursion under horn loading. That's not to be taken lightly.

Either way carry on... I'll go back to watching the show. I'll say it again I support the mission and I'm a fan!
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post #87 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 06:14 PM
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Judging from B&C's plots - and I've found them to be as accurate as any manufacturer - the 8CXN51 and it's ferrite cousin that Erich has on the way (I forget the model number) are a clear step forward in the compression driver/horn system versus their previous designs. Whether it is good enough people will have to decide for themselves.
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post #88 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

It would be nice if there were advancements in this area (accessible to us hobbyists) to make the problem go away, but there aren't.
Is this a truism that we have to accept, or can this be remedied with knowledge, some models, and a group buy - like the SEOS project improved the waveguide market for DIYers?
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post #89 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 06:39 PM
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I'll toss this into the mix.. It would be important to look at offaxis response perhaps even moreso than onaxis

That's the number one ingredient to begin with.

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post #90 of 1754 Old 01-30-2014, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

Buy the appropriate in-walls from Kef and re-purpose them.

Current ones use notably lesser drivers. Look at the "200" model in-wall vs. the Q900, and just from looks the differences will be obvious. That said, I'm curious to see how the upcoming Ci200RR-THX compares with the Q900 driver. I'll probably pick one up when they're for sale.

Yeah as soon as I saw your response I had a head smack moment, of course they aren't going to package up their flagship drivers with a bare crossover and sell them for wall and ceiling installations. redface.gif I had read something somewhere about a person who did what I suggested, but who knows if the end result was any good.
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