Coaxials: Another DIY Group Project. - Page 57 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1681 of 1759 Old 08-03-2019, 08:37 AM
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Keep checking each week to see that it’s still not for sale yet.

Same. This guy needs some business help.


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post #1682 of 1759 Old 08-03-2019, 10:47 AM
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It's not really a business for him.
He does it as more of a "Charity" enterprise for people who want great products at amazing prices,who are willing to "build"(I use the term loosely) because if buying flatpacks and prebuilt crossovers,there's not much building, high quality speakers.

I suppose he could run it as a business and charge accordingly.

I know I'm not the only one here not saying it enough.......

Thank You Erich!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #1683 of 1759 Old 08-03-2019, 11:48 AM
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Same. This guy needs some business help.
Not what this is about for Erich.

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post #1684 of 1759 Old 08-03-2019, 03:05 PM
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The wait is killing me too, but I'm so appreciative that this is even an option. I simply don't have the workspace and tools to precision cut panels to make my own cabinets nor is there anywhere else to go for these unconventional home audio designs. I feel like the time and financial risk Erich takes to facilitate this is mind-boggling and I feel bad that he's not making money off it!
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post #1685 of 1759 Old 08-03-2019, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I was waiting to get the flat packs before getting the Vortex models up on the site but I might go ahead and finish up the product pages this weekend. The flat packs would ship in separate boxes anyway. I paid some money for tooling on the coaxials about a year ago, possibly longer. I got a credit for a percentage of that on the first order. Normally they would sell at a set price and I'd get the tooling costs back over time. But what I might do is just scratch that tooling cost until the next couple of orders which would put the first run of kits at a lower cost. Not sure I explained that properly, but I'm pretty sure that's how I'm going to do it.


About the site - Things have been a little crazy lately and it's harder finding time to finish up a few of the current projects while keeping up with the past ones. I think I'm close to maxed out on time/space yet there are still projects here that need to go on the site. I've typed up some ideas on how to pull everything together faster but it would require some pretty big changes, which is why I've been a bit hesitant to do it. But I'm slowly starting to realize that things will have to change a bit in order to make this run smoother. But that's a topic for another place.

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post #1686 of 1759 Old 08-07-2019, 07:21 AM
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post #1687 of 1759 Old 08-07-2019, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Those aren't the same woofers. It was a joint project between Eminence and I. Their versions are different than the ones I have because goals were a little different for the end product.

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post #1688 of 1759 Old 08-08-2019, 07:54 AM
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Those aren't the same woofers. It was a joint project between Eminence and I. Their versions are different than the ones I have because goals were a little different for the end product.
These are really exciting. I know you're busy but the more you can share about how yours differ from the pro, we'd love to hear. I'd also like to strongly suggest that you offer the drivers standalone- I'm using DSP crossovers and don't need the passive, port tubes, or hardware, well chosen or not. The polars you've achieved are absolutely incredible. With DSP the acoustic centers can be aligned, which should make these basically a "perfect" full range 12" or 15" driver, IOW, perfect integration.
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post #1689 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 11:46 AM
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Anybody order these yet?

They're in stock now.

Cheaper than I expected, too.

12" - $369
15" - $397
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post #1690 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 11:48 AM
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Yip, the 15's!!
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post #1691 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 11:52 AM
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Cool! Hopefully we'll see flat packs follow soon.
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post #1692 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 12:45 PM
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Coaxials: Another DIY Group Project.

Yikes. $1200 for front stage. I was hoping they would be not quite so high. $500 for 3 volt, or $1200 for 3 vortex. Erich, are they worth it?

And I know I have asked this, and I know they will work in IB, but for this money, is there anything else that I should be considering for IB front stage in my theater? I mean, how much of the Vortex’s potential will be lost by mounting in a wall vs a ported cab? What are my other options?


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post #1693 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 01:19 PM
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I want to be all over those 15"s. Cheaper than expected What is the target box volume for the 15"s?

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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #1694 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 01:28 PM
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I want to be all over those 15"s. Cheaper than expected What is the target box volume for the 15"s?
Based on the T/S parameters posted earlier and eyeballing the flatpack photos, I'm thinking around 4.5 to 5 feet cubed.
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post #1695 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 01:32 PM
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There's a bit more info here. Want to build new speakers potentially next month. These are definitely contenders.
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post #1696 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 01:50 PM
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I have about 12 inches behind my AT screen. I could mock up a box that has the drivers on the lower end and side firing ports. I want to stick with 15"s and fit two sub woofers under the screen. This might be the ticket. Edit: How deep is the woofer with the compression driver fitted on the back?

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post #1697 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 02:23 PM
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Was totally one click away from ordering 3 vortex 15 for front stage. I had to seriously talk myself out of it. I have more projects going on right now than I can handle.
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post #1698 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 02:57 PM
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A quick tower size mock up could be 16"x47"x16" for about 5.5 cft with .75 material which should come out about right after bracing and driver displacement. That should also put the compression driver ~ ear height.
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post #1699 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 06:45 PM
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Yikes. $1200 for front stage. I was hoping they would be not quite so high. $500 for 3 volt, or $1200 for 3 vortex. Erich, are they worth it?

And I know I have asked this, and I know they will work in IB, but for this money, is there anything else that I should be considering for IB front stage in my theater? I mean, how much of the Vortex’s potential will be lost by mounting in a wall vs a ported cab? What are my other options?


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If they follow the performance record of Eric's and Mark's previous works, you would have to pay twice that much per speaker for anything close to the same performance in a manufactured/marketed speaker.

But @Eric H and @mtg90 , GrandPixel's questions in the second paragraph bring up something that you two could really help with. You are the experts. You have numerous models. Various DIYSG models will be more appropriate for various rooms/designs. I have harped on this from time to time here and there, but there is little if any discussion about the importance of choosing a speaker as part of an holistic design for a room rather than just a shiny new item. You guys could help folks make decisions about which DIYSG product is best for their specific room/utility by including a page somewhere on how to choose speakers. Why would one choose a 15" over a 12" or vice versa? Are three 15" Vortex LCRs going to provide smooth coverage across the spectrum in a short throw with more than one seat in the room? How will each model perform in various room designs, seating arrangements, throw distances, and room volume? Single seat or area coverage? How will positioning the speakers best accomplish this with various models?

There is science and professionalism to HT (and pro cinema) design when it comes to rooms and speakers. Yes, AVS and especially the DIY crowd like to invent the wheel themselves and subjectivity rules with most. But I think somebody like you guys need to speak up authoritatively on these matters with some basic guidelines where everybody can do their homework and not drive you crazy with questions on speaker choice when their room design should drive that choice rather than this wild west approach where nobody knows what to choose unless they have some kind of professional experience in cinema design or something. Perhaps a sticky in the forum on proven design methodologies and how they affect speaker choice.

As a designer, I get asked all the time "What is your go-to speaker?" If I know nothing about their room, I tell them I know nothing about their room, therefore don't know what speaker would be best. I love the DIYSG speakers, have a room full of my own, and build them for others if they work in their design. But I couldn't commit blindly on any model. Gotta do the homework first.

Rant complete. Forgive me.

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post #1700 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 09:21 PM
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I
Rant complete. Forgive me.
All is forgiven Can Man! As a fellow rabbit hole dweller--I have a few thoughts.

For the record, I don't own any coaxial speakers at this time, I'll be building a pair this winter for surround use because coaxials (or concentrics) fit my requirements.

OK, with that out of the way--yes, I'm just shooting from the hip here so have mercy upon me!

Coaxials--they do some things very well, other things they are decent but are not the "go to" speaker if you are talking LCR use. This is just my ponderings, my opinion but something to think about.

Coaxials work wonderfully well as near field or "desktop" speakers--work great in car audio also since they are near field. Nice to have a point source when listening at one meter on a desk (or mixer) or when very wide dispersion is desired in all directions both vertical and horizontal (unless it has a horn flare like some old coaxials or B&C 15 inch coaxials) The smaller versions can have really wide dispersion, think of 5 or 6 inch coaxials and work very well for surrounds and so on. Much easier to build with coaxials, be it a car, small monitors for your desk or oddly shaped surrounds (my use) The "perfect speaker"? Well, not so fast--have to read the fine print!

Coaxials have issues--from the first ones made by Tannoy to the ones made by KEF, B&C, B&C and so on. There are two problems that jump out immediately, first the treble will interact with the woofer cone which moves--not a good thing in itself. Can't avoid that although some coaxials I've seen with a huge horn flare that extends past the cone which helps. From what I gather, the obect is to minimize cone movement by either using woofers or subwoofers to minimize cone movement. Making the cone larger helps wit efficiency and demands less cone movement for the same SPL. So bigger is better? Well, there is more fine print!

Once the cone gets very large, say over 8 inches then the crossover point to the tweeter must go down to prevent off-axis problems. Say around 1600 Hz for a ten incher, around 1300 to 1400 Hz for a twelve and so on. This prevents beamig just like in conventional speakers. Now you need to find a tweeter/compression driver that fits in the threaded portion of the magnet--not too tough above 2000 Hz but it gets much harder and more expensive as you go lower. Not too tough to get 1200 Hz out of acompresion driver on a large horn, very tough to get one to squeeze in the restricted space of the coaxial woofer--wrie off 1.4 inch and 2 inch compression drivers from the start!

The fun is not over--now the cmpression drver has to work well with the small horn flare that fits behind the dust cap--no big 10 to 15 inch SEOS horns for you! Say you get that done, the measurements work well on axis and off axis--after plenty of crossover manipulation and testing. This is what I call "the dark art of crosover building"--I'm not putting words in MTG90's mouth but I would bet it is much harder to get a coaxial to work properly with the limited space provided, the smal horn flare and get it all to work properly with passive crossover components.

The big clue was the time it took to create such a beast. Somewhere around 3 years and I'm willing to put my neck out and state it was one of mtg's biggest headaches--but through determination, a touch of insanity and the cost to make it right--itt is done. I was actually surprised at the low cost of the kits considering the time, cost of parts and the beer bills must of piled up. OK, the last one might not be true--but I would understand if it did.

They did menion the 15 inch coaxial would be better for IB (in wall) because it could make it to 80 Hz and has more Xmax to deal with IB. Looking at the on/off axis charts--they are outstanding for a coaxial! Most coaxials get a bit weird at higher frequencies but those measurements look very smooth.

Would I use coaxials for LCR? No, I'm in a living room so very limited acoustic treatments allowed so SEOS horns work better for me to limit floor/ceiling reflections. That huge dispersion characteristic can reach around and bite you in the butt there. However, I would love eitght of those 12 inch coaxials for surrounds and Atmos--my wife would divorce me but it would rock. For the guys with the 1899's, 1299's and Titan 630 XLs...your surround coaxials are readay!

Hope that helps more than it hurt. Just an overview and ponderings about coaxials, what they do well, what they don't and the pain it would be to design larger ones. I heard mention of 10" versions, now THAT would be something I'd like to have. Light weight neo drivers, a smaller box and something new and fun to play around with before they took their throne as surrounds/Atmos speakers. My inner voice informs me I need to build a 2.1 channel boombox with a chip amp and a pair of Volt 6's...and an 8 inch sub. My next build will be playing with coax speakers--should be interesting.

As with everything, it kinda depends on what you want the speaker to do, if it's strong points overshadow the weekeness in the configuration and if coaxial is the best tool to fix your audio problems.

OK, somebody out there wants to make 12 or 15 inch "truck boxes" just because. Enough of my babbling, now to see those unicorn coaxials roll out and see what kind of madness the rabbit hole dwellers have up their sleeves. Have a great weekend.
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post #1701 of 1759 Old 08-09-2019, 10:08 PM
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@18Hurts --good read. Enjoyed it. You are clearly very knowledgeable, therefore can use that knowledge to plan a design that will use the nominal speakers for it. I get the feeling that a lot of folks who find there way to DIYSG don't have that depth of knowledge. It is not ideal that these speakers can't enjoy the depth of R&D that some speakers have and publish very detailed performance specs (such as some JBL). So, it's not like we can do all our own homework when planning to use DIYSG speakers. I'm sure that your post will help folks understand more about coaxials. I use Volt 10s for my surrounds, but they have minimum 14' throws, so dispersion works out fine. In a smaller room...not so well unless you only have a seat or two and you can aim them.

But that's my point. There's not a guide that I know of to help folks here on AVS. As a result, a lot of folks are just taking a chance on whatever DIYSG speaker strikes their fancy rather than understanding how and if it will meet the needs of their room. That's okay if it is a manufactured speaker that you can return. Not so easy with DIYSG speakers that you invest time and effort to build.

The basics to look for are: Will each speaker cover the seats that you require covered (a factor of on/off axis dispersion, throw distance, and seating), and will it do so smoothly across the spectrum? Is it sized appropriately for the volume of the room? SPL is typically not a problem for DIYSG speakers, but a large room could challenge the headroom (authority) a speaker may have at the crossover frequency (likely around 60Hz to 80Hz) if it is not sized properly. Answering those will lead to the appropriate speakers...and happiness with performance.
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post #1702 of 1759 Old 08-10-2019, 09:38 AM
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If they follow the performance record of Eric's and Mark's previous works, you would have to pay twice that much per speaker for anything close to the same performance in a manufactured/marketed speaker.

But @Eric H and @mtg90 , GrandPixel's questions in the second paragraph bring up something that you two could really help with. You are the experts. You have numerous models. Various DIYSG models will be more appropriate for various rooms/designs. I have harped on this from time to time here and there, but there is little if any discussion about the importance of choosing a speaker as part of an holistic design for a room rather than just a shiny new item. You guys could help folks make decisions about which DIYSG product is best for their specific room/utility by including a page somewhere on how to choose speakers. Why would one choose a 15" over a 12" or vice versa? Are three 15" Vortex LCRs going to provide smooth coverage across the spectrum in a short throw with more than one seat in the room? How will each model perform in various room designs, seating arrangements, throw distances, and room volume? Single seat or area coverage? How will positioning the speakers best accomplish this with various models?

There is science and professionalism to HT (and pro cinema) design when it comes to rooms and speakers. Yes, AVS and especially the DIY crowd like to invent the wheel themselves and subjectivity rules with most. But I think somebody like you guys need to speak up authoritatively on these matters with some basic guidelines where everybody can do their homework and not drive you crazy with questions on speaker choice when their room design should drive that choice rather than this wild west approach where nobody knows what to choose unless they have some kind of professional experience in cinema design or something. Perhaps a sticky in the forum on proven design methodologies and how they affect speaker choice.

As a designer, I get asked all the time "What is your go-to speaker?" If I know nothing about their room, I tell them I know nothing about their room, therefore don't know what speaker would be best. I love the DIYSG speakers, have a room full of my own, and build them for others if they work in their design. But I couldn't commit blindly on any model. Gotta do the homework first.

Rant complete. Forgive me.
Good Points, The kind of information about specific speakers mentioned is an opportunity for this community in particular to shine. If one reads the typical speaker review on the DIYSG site it's about how great and easy it was to do business with them (which we all know), how well stuff was packed and delivered, most elaborate on how easy the build was, and end with how great the speakers are and how happy they are with them....all good BUT....It would be nice to have some general design information about each speaker which would be very helpful in making a selection and I'll bet it would save Erich and others a lot of hours spent on the phone and emails helping people make their selection. Specs are good, but information like "this speaker design performs well near corners", "this design performs best away from , walls" "this speaker performs best at higher volumes" , "this speaker was designed for HT", "this speakers was designed for detailed music reproduction".... yada yada yada. These are the questions beyond "specs" contemplated by everyone considering "which speaker is best for me".


Specs are certainly helpful...the more the better,, but It would be great to get more comments from the designer(s) on what they had in mind with their designs. If you look at the Overnight Sensation MTM on the site there is a narrative labelled "from the speaker designer" which I think provides insights and the exact type of useful information being discussed in the above posts and sought after by many customers. Focus on providing end product information, and not information about business decisions and information about how the products were conceived and birthed. While I appreciate the concept, effort, and intent of DIYSG, I don't need to know about how large or small the driver deals were with the manufacturer, how long or how the deal was negotiated, inventory, or how much effort went into deciding which materials to use and how that drove costs and price changes.....those are all universal business decisions that won't have any effect on how a customer ultimately chooses what they want to order. I would love see "from the speaker designer" paragraph or two for each speaker listed. I hope this is constructive input. Thanks for what you do, may DIYSG live long and prosper.
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post #1703 of 1759 Old 08-10-2019, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Yikes. $1200 for front stage. I was hoping they would be not quite so high. $500 for 3 volt, or $1200 for 3 vortex. Erich, are they worth it?
Unfortunately there's no way they can be any lower than that when adding up all their parts unless there's a cheaper compression driver option. They were designed to be high end kits and are multiple steps above the Volts. I'd be inclined to say the Vortex line is a step above the HTM's in some characteristics and they do use higher end parts as well.

I was really debating if they should even go on the DIY site because in general higher end kits don't get ordered very often. Hopefully that's not the case here. I did give thought about going to a completed speaker cabinet option with these but decided I didn't have enough room for that right now.
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post #1704 of 1759 Old 08-10-2019, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I have harped on this from time to time here and there, but there is little if any discussion about the importance of choosing a speaker as part of an holistic design for a room rather than just a shiny new item. You guys could help folks make decisions about which DIYSG product is best for their specific room/utility by including a page somewhere on how to choose speakers. Why would one choose a 15" over a 12" or vice versa? Are three 15" Vortex LCRs going to provide smooth coverage across the spectrum in a short throw with more than one seat in the room? How will each model perform in various room designs, seating arrangements, throw distances, and room volume? Single seat or area coverage? How will positioning the speakers best accomplish this with various models?
If you've read any of my posts here you'll quickly see that I stink at explaining things and using the correct terminology. So I'm not the best when it comes to that kind of stuff. I know my reasons for working with each line of speakers, but expressing that in well thought out paragraphs is just not my thing. And it really shows on the site. My goal is to make a thread for each line of speakers and get that kind of info posted.....but time just hasn't allowed it to happen.

There are a few forum members here that are very good at explaining the different kits. What I should do is start a page on the site that has all that info and copy/paste their great explanations there. If anyone wants to make a list of questions that we should try to focus answers on, I will make up a topic area with those questions. I just don't know what people want. Keep in mind I can't make up any 3d images or drawings to show speaker set up or how things work in the room.
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post #1705 of 1759 Old 08-10-2019, 10:33 AM
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These coaxials measure very well and look to be priced pretty well considering that woofer most likely costs $200+ by itself.
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post #1706 of 1759 Old 08-10-2019, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
The fun is not over--now the cmpression drver has to work well with the small horn flare that fits behind the dust cap--no big 10 to 15 inch SEOS horns for you! Say you get that done, the measurements work well on axis and off axis--after plenty of crossover manipulation and testing. This is what I call "the dark art of crosover building"--I'm not putting words in MTG90's mouth but I would bet it is much harder to get a coaxial to work properly with the limited space provided, the smal horn flare and get it all to work properly with passive crossover components.

The big clue was the time it took to create such a beast. Somewhere around 3 years and I'm willing to put my neck out and state it was one of mtg's biggest headaches--but through determination, a touch of insanity and the cost to make it right--itt is done. I was actually surprised at the low cost of the kits considering the time, cost of parts and the beer bills must of piled up. OK, the last one might not be true--but I would understand if it did.
On the home audio models that the DIY guys now have access to, more time was spent on the transition from the inner horn to the cone. And the cone has a nice curvilinear shape to it. I'll get more photos soon, but as you know, it does act like a big horn flare.

X-max was kept on the lower side for the 12" to purposely keep cone movement a bit more under control. The larger size of the 12" and 15", and their high sensitivity, will allow them to get very loud without the cone moving very much.

This project did take a while and was actually more expensive than the SEOS project. It also had more prototypes being made, custom parts, etc.
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post #1707 of 1759 Old 08-10-2019, 11:09 AM
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@Eric H and @JonfromCB ...good info from both of you. Here is an example of one tech spec that should always be included. I routinely tell a colleague friend who is deeply steeped in high performance speakers and HT in general about DIYSG products. The other day I was telling him about the new Vortex line, and the conversation shifted to my Volt-10s. He asked a very valid question of any speaker design. "Is it designed for free air or half space?" I told him I didn't know whether it was designed for in room or on wall. In this day and age where we still have the fabulous benefits of MEQ xt32 and the Editor App, I suppose I don't give it much thought. But I suspect that a lot of folks also don't use xt32, and if they don't, they need to know this detail. That's an example of what is a very basic spec about every speaker.

I think jonfromcb has a good idea about the designer commenting. I would like to see three graphics created showing three different rooms from overhead. Small, medium, and large and showing coverage lines or fields from each speaker across the listening area. These could be color coded to show the various DIYSG speakers that would serve in each room. The graphic would indicate throw distance to the primary row of seats. One could then tell whether a Titan or a MTM-12 or 10 would cover best in their room (with some interpolation perhaps).

Here is a kind of graphic I'm suggesting on the HAA website, although the graphics shown here are to demonstrate something else. https://homeacoustics.org/positionin...formance-room/

Speaking of that HAA article, it is a terrific article, and the side bar column on the right is loaded with terrific such articles. That is the kind of thing I'm suggesting to all for "homework." With that knowledge you can then study speaker specs and design a fine room. I attended the THX school back in 2002 when it was still taught by Anthony Grimani and John Dahl. I also attended HAA training (and ISF etc etc). HAA is particularly good at providing access to excellent information for us all.

Eric, maybe you and Mark can look through the HAA articles and create something on your site with links to the articles that help define what your products will do, etc. Just brainstorming here.
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Last edited by Cam Man; 08-10-2019 at 11:13 AM.
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post #1708 of 1759 Old 08-10-2019, 11:56 AM
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These look so good. Also price is where I was hoping. Now just need to see the flat pack options as I hope to use for surrounds and obviously if only towers are made that won’t work. Very excited. Now hopefully everyone who sees the theater will say holy cow the fronts, the projector and now the surrounds are insanely massive. Next up building a couch sized subwoofer 🙂
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post #1709 of 1759 Old 08-10-2019, 12:56 PM
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I like the explanation of the custom parts, issues and design decisions that went into making the drivers. It gives the details that are required to make an informed decision before buying. Without that data your stuck taking the manufacturers word that "it is good" so the more technical the better for me. I'd prefer to ignore information than trying to guess the information.
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post #1710 of 1759 Old 08-10-2019, 01:41 PM
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Was totally one click away from ordering 3 vortex 15 for front stage. I had to seriously talk myself out of it. I have more projects going on right now than I can handle.
You could always be a good sport about it and help clean up the thread by going back and deleting all the "Are we there yet?" posts since you ended up not wanting to go there after all.
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