Most BASS for the $$$? What is it ? Design contest anyone? - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 253 Old 03-20-2015, 01:43 PM
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THERE IT IS!....


asking "What if ....?"

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post #212 of 253 Old 03-20-2015, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I don't have my WINISD installed on this PC or the files but I would be curious to see the INFINITY vs the JBL and then convert the dollars to SPL ratio, and the size of the cab/space to bass ratio. See which is really the highest.

in a given sealed cab, two 1262 have almost identical frequency response one gto1514d.
somebody mentioned sonic electronix has the gto1514d for 50% off the second one, so about $75 ea.
1262 go for $55-60 ea.
the 1262 xmax is a little underrated, overhang only. not sure about the jbl.
that works out to about $33 per liter on the infinity and $31 for the jbl.
in the same size cab, the two infinity give 1-2db more spl before running out of gas.
these are large signal guesses based on small signal parameters though, so unless they were both tested at the limit, they are so close, I'd call them "the same".
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post #213 of 253 Old 03-24-2015, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I remember hearing and reading about the oklahoma wolf project. That one looked pretty cool.
There's a really good reason why I haven't built anything since... I simply don't need anything else. The SDX horn isn't as sensitive as the dual Tang Band design I started out with in TH design, but it makes up for that by having more top end headroom. I've thought about knocking down the Tang Band horn so I can build a matching SDX horn, but then I listen to them and go, "Naaaah, I'm happy." They both have roughly the same F3, so there's really no need to do anything different at all.

I don't think the one I built has seen more than 100-150 watts since I decided to run the pair of them at the same time. IIRC FUN4ME was running his pair of the SDX horns off a 400W amp in his open plan space and happy with that.

And yeah, it does take a lot of work to do a TH properly. IIRC I spent about 6 months on that one making sure I had it as good as I wanted it. Used letters of the alphabet in Hornresp to simulate all my refolds, and I used up half the alphabet before I was happy with it.
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post #214 of 253 Old 03-24-2015, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf View Post
There's a really good reason why I haven't built anything since... I simply don't need anything else. The SDX horn isn't as sensitive as the dual Tang Band design I started out with in TH design, but it makes up for that by having more top end headroom. I've thought about knocking down the Tang Band horn so I can build a matching SDX horn, but then I listen to them and go, "Naaaah, I'm happy." They both have roughly the same F3, so there's really no need to do anything different at all.

I don't think the one I built has seen more than 100-150 watts since I decided to run the pair of them at the same time. IIRC FUN4ME was running his pair of the SDX horns off a 400W amp in his open plan space and happy with that.

And yeah, it does take a lot of work to do a TH properly. IIRC I spent about 6 months on that one making sure I had it as good as I wanted it. Used letters of the alphabet in Hornresp to simulate all my refolds, and I used up half the alphabet before I was happy with it.
I can appreciate all these things you say. I talk a lot with Lilmike privately, we seem to email almost daily. He's taught me a lot about tapped horn design, but the rubber meet the road when you build and measure. A simulation is only a simulation, it's not real life. I would like to do a design or a build using a tapped horn design, it's on my list. SOON. I have never built one yet. It seems like the ultimate in terms of bang for the buck, ultimate performance, output etc... But the work to design and build is a lot more which is why I don't think you see many doing it.

The marty design is so popular, but the lilwrecker was a lot less popular. Why ? The lilwrecker actually uses a $120 15" woofer. It's the difference in the simplicity. People like simple. But making stupid bass isn't always simple, not if you want to do it cheap and with only a few watts.
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post #215 of 253 Old 03-24-2015, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I can appreciate all these things you say. I talk a lot with Lilmike privately, we seem to email almost daily. He's taught me a lot about tapped horn design, but the rubber meet the road when you build and measure. A simulation is only a simulation, it's not real life. I would like to do a design or a build using a tapped horn design, it's on my list. SOON. I have never built one yet. It seems like the ultimate in terms of bang for the buck, ultimate performance, output etc... But the work to design and build is a lot more which is why I don't think you see many doing it.
I'm not going to say lilmike taught me everything I know (Tom Danley and Soho54 get credit too), but he certainly had the most impact of anyone on my designs

I did run impedance measurements on both my horns just to see if I got what I simulated. The answer was yes to the SDX horn, no to the Tang Band horn. But then I kind of suspected that after the TB horn went together, which was why I decided to try and do better on the SDX horn. If I'm being really nitpicky, there are still things I could have done slightly better. But I had to pick a place to get off the trolley and actually build the thing, and I'm glad I did. There's nothing major about the design tweaking it now would prove worth the effort.

There are a couple designs I'd like to try out if I ever get the extra time and money, code named "Wolfhorn Ghettoblaster" and "Wolfhorn San Andreas," but I'm still really broke and never have free time, so it's hard telling when I'll ever get to do it. That second one in particular... that's a thousand bucks for drivers alone, and if I mess up the compression ratio and end up destroying them... yeah. I don't like to think about that

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post #216 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post
If you think the 1260/2 is a good value, how about upping it to a cast frame 15 for $90: JBL GTO1514
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Originally Posted by dtmeyer View Post
Sonic electronix has the jbl gto1514 for buy one, get second half off. Thats 2 15s for $150.
Me thinks we have a new bang for the buck champ.
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
in a given sealed cab, two 1262 have almost identical frequency response one gto1514d.
somebody mentioned sonic electronix has the gto1514d for 50% off the second one, so about $75 ea.
that works out to about $33 per liter on the infinity and $31 for the jbl.
JBL has removed the product page, but the Sonic site lists the specs:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/viewitem.php?id=13863&show_tab=1



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
You want bang for the buck? Build folded horns. Huge output with inexpensive drivers and not many watts. The downside is their size, but when you compare how many direct radiators it will take to equal a horn even in that respect horns can win.
Bill, I bought your THTLP plans last year.
I bought a pair of JBL GTO1514D.

I haven't seen a THT build thread that used the JBL, but it looks like the GTO1514D should be suitable:
Quote:
Originally Posted by THTLP
Acceptable driver T/S specs are fs 20 to 30Hz, Qts .3 to .5, Vas 100 to 300L, xmax no less than 10mm.

THTLP requirement: fs 20 to 30Hz
JBL GTO1514D spec: Fs = 24.90 Hz

THTLP requirement: Qts .3 to .5
JBL GTO1514D spec: Qts = 0.47

THTLP requirement: Vas 100 to 300L
JBL GTO1514D spec: Vas = 161.40 liters

THTLP requirement: xmax no less than 10mm
JBL GTO1514D spec: 15 mm
Is the JBL GTO1514D suitable for the THT-LP?
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post #217 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 06:09 AM
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One of the main reasons I chose the THTLP is because I only have 24" depth behind my AT screen. No real limit on width or height, though.

What other DIY enclosures would be "Most BASS for the $$$?" candidates for my 2nd JBL GTO1514d?
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Originally Posted by Clarence View Post
One of the main reasons I chose the THTLP is because I only have 24" depth behind my AT screen. No real limit on width or height, though.

What other DIY enclosures would be "Most BASS for the $$$?" candidates for my 2nd JBL GTO1514d?
A 2nd horn...
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post #219 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 10:22 AM
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^ LOL
my first build ever was a 24" THTLP, which I listened to for a whole 10 minutest just plopped behind my seating . .
Then I went back to HD for plywood to build 2 x 30"s
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post #220 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post
One of the main reasons I chose the THTLP is because I only have 24" depth behind my AT screen. No real limit on width or height, though.

What other DIY enclosures would be "Most BASS for the $$$?" candidates for my 2nd JBL GTO1514d?

offset to show the difference. light gray is GTO1514D. black line is the MFW, which was what the lilmike F20 was designed for.


I'd say you are good to go!


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post #221 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 04:11 PM
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here are the two, except backwards. GTO1514D is BLACK line in this pic.


in this pic, both are 1w1m 2pi space.


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post #222 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 04:14 PM
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all three model almost identically to the THT with the Dayton 385 driver.


but with the f20, the tradeoff is a little less max spl (maybe a db or so) for a little more extension (3-4hz or so). i think most folks would make that tradeoff between the two.

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post #223 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 04:15 PM
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buy one get one half off is still on.


that would be two woofers for F20's for $150.
crazy.

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post #224 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 04:32 PM
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with 350 watts (rated power) into 1.9 ohms and a second order high pass on at 20hz (typical with a plate amp and possible with the inuke dsp/ or mini-dsp), this may be the best bang for the buck of all time. the f20 iirc was designed for the mfw15" buyout woofer which was about a hundred bucks. this jbl woofer appears to do the job for $75 if you buy two.


the actual measured response won't be as choppy as the hornresp model. but this is the kind of spl you can get in 2 pi space (that's outdoors). excursion hits a hair past xmax in this setup which is fine.


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post #225 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 04:37 PM
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if comparing across websites, most manufacturers like to widen and "smush" the scale to make the (same information) appear much flatter.

same plot as above, chopped and smushed:


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post #226 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
my first build ever was a 24" THTLP... I went back to HD for plywood to build 2


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
with the f20, the tradeoff is a little less max spl (maybe a db or so) for a little more extension (3-4hz or so). i think most folks would make that tradeoff between the two.
I might build one of each (THTLP + F20) just for the experience. Doesn't matter to me if they match... they'll be behind an AT screen.

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buy one get one half off is still on.
that would be two woofers for F20's for $150.
crazy.
Free shipping, no tax, and they accept paypal (for those who try to avoid submitting CC info online when possible).

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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
with 350 watts (rated power) into 1.9 ohms and a second order high pass on at 20hz (typical with a plate amp and possible with the inuke dsp/ or mini-dsp), this may be the best bang for the buck of all time
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post #227 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 05:40 PM
 
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I might build one of each (THTLP + F20) just for the experience. Doesn't matter to me if they match... they'll be behind an AT screen.





You probably want to build the same horn if using them together, F20 goes lower.
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post #228 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 06:00 PM
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You probably want to build the same horn if using them together, F20 goes lower.
Yeah, I suspect either one would be more than enough. Worst case I build one of each, if I like one better, then give the runner up to my best friend in exchange for a couple of new sheets of ply and then build myself the matching set.

Otherwise I'll always be curious about whichever one I didn't build.

I found a similar thread on another forum which summed up the same thought process I've been having RE: F20 vs THT...

Quote:
Another reason to go that route is that you've built a THT. For me, I really enjoy different builds. You'll appreciate the simplicity of the F-20.
Quote:
I just measured the THT using the advanced centerline method, and it is exactly 12.66604' or 12' 8". That is 22.2Hz. That is right at where the THT is good to.
Quote:
This (THT) length is effectively increased when firing into a corner about 18" from the back wall. The F-20 is a 15 foot horn, which gives it about a 19 Hz. cutoff. Firing an F-20 into a corner would not increase the effective length of the horn or the size of the mouth as appreciably as it does a THT. They are very similar in performance, but the F-20 is easier to build.
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Would a F20 work with the THT I currently have? I would like to try a different sub build
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If you have separate gain control for each sub amplifiers, that would be fine.
(I'm using a 3000DSP)
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phase problems occur with identical subs as well. It's not exclusive to different subwoofers
Either way... similar costs, similar performance. Both are bang-for-the-buck winners.
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post #229 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 06:37 PM
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THTLP builds made the SUBMAXIMUS build and kevings's marty builds look like a walk in the park
and the (2) Lhorn cabs almost built themselves
makes me think its like watching the DIRAC presentation this last weekend at the LA GTG


"this is some Maryland farmer charming "genius" (Pulp Fiction paraphrase)
"You're going to need a bigger budget"

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one more. i scaled up the 18.5" to ~24" (i actually overshot by 0.5", meh**) for the gto driver in the f20.


black is 24", light is 18.5" looks like a couple db gain. not bad. it looks like the corner shifts, but on the excursion comparison plot they are both hitting min excursion at the same point. so same "tuning", just more output.





** just check the exact 24" model and the difference between it and this is literally the thickness of the line. no practical difference.
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and smushed just for fun. :-)


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You're awesome @LTD02 .
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:-)


it's lilmike's sub.

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post #234 of 253 Old 03-25-2015, 09:35 PM
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That driver pushes the knee up a few hz, but you gain output.
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post #235 of 253 Old 03-27-2015, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post
I might build one of each (THTLP + F20) just for the experience.
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You probably want to build the same horn if using them together, F20 goes lower.
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with the f20, the tradeoff is a little less max spl (maybe a db or so) for a little more extension (3-4hz or so). i think most folks would make that tradeoff between the two.

OK, I'm going to start with the F-20. Because I already had one and half sheets of 3/4" ply. I did a cut plan and everything fit nicely with the pieces I had, just needed one more sheet. THTLP uses 1/2", so that would mean 3 sheets to buy.

My 3000DSP just got delivered. And the GTO1514's are on the UPS truck today, out for delivery.

$75 JVC GTO1514, $150 ebay 3000DSP, and a $50 sheet of 3/4" ply... this weekend I'm going to find out how much "BASS for the $$$" that's going to give me.
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post #236 of 253 Old 03-27-2015, 10:04 PM
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be sure to brace your sub well. :-)


looking forward to this one...

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...and watch your power. on paper, the 3000dsp is way too much for the gto1514d, which is about a 350 watt (rated) driver.


for protection, a 3rd order highpass at 20-22hz will limit excursion to just past xmax with 350 watts. I'm not sure what the xmech/damage limit is on the gto. probably best to start out a little on the conservative side and see how things go...

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post #238 of 253 Old 03-27-2015, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
be sure to brace your sub well. :-)

looking forward to this one...
I started a build thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-20-build.html
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post #239 of 253 Old 03-27-2015, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
...and watch your power. on paper, the 3000dsp is way too much for the gto1514d, which is about a 350 watt (rated) driver.


for protection, a 3rd order highpass at 20-22hz will limit excursion to just past xmax with 350 watts. I'm not sure what the xmech/damage limit is on the gto. probably best to start out a little on the conservative side and see how things go...
This is the first external sub amp that I've owned. I'll RTFM and search AVS... most of this info is there, I just need to learn what to learn.

It took me an hour just to figure out what I needed to order for input and output connector adapters. And then I started following tangents about fan mods (yep... needs to be done... added to my do list).
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post #240 of 253 Old 03-28-2015, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Nice.
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