Mackie C200 - under the hood - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 121 Old 10-26-2014, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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In the interest of following up on some advice from the DIY guys I performed a little additional testing today on the Mackie C200. I was advised to stuff poly fill in the C200 cab and see if that helped the speaker. Here are the results of that test. For the test a crossover of 80hz was used. The Onkyo PR-SC5508 was the source, Pure Direct mode on the Onkyo was used to bypass all AVR EQ functions. A Crown XLS-202 amp bridged was connected to one 8ohm Mackie C200.



The test results seem to indicate the polyfill helped smooth the frequency response below 1Khz, at the expense of some spl around port tune.
The red line is the 10 capture average of the native frequency response of the C200 speaker.
The blue line is the 10 capture average of the poly stuffed frequency response of the C200 speaker.



Here are the distortion measurements stock


Here are the distortion measurements poly stuffed



Here is the bass decay stock


Here is the bass decay poly stuffed



measurement pictures








stuffing pictures


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post #32 of 121 Old 10-26-2014, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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@tuxedocivic, and @mtg90, @FOH

based on the polyfill stuff testing above - it looks like it's generally an improvement in measurements. I don't know how audible this will be. All measurements were captured at 1/48/octave - but I'll go ahead and stuff the front three speakers at minimum.

One surprising thing to my novice thought process - is I would have expected the polyfill to smooth out the frequency response plot between say 10,000hz and 20,000 hz, but it didn't seem to do anything there. Does that seem odd to you too?

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post #33 of 121 Old 10-26-2014, 09:33 AM
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You very much improved some internal reflection at 300hz. Great job. I think the decay looks better. Especially at. 300hz. But the chart is fairly compressed and hard to read.

I wouldn't expect any improvement in the tweeter passband. Especially 10khz.
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post #34 of 121 Old 10-26-2014, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I did some additional testing on the reverb decay --- I've just noticed it's too volatile to mean anything. Each measurement is slightly different and there is no way to average that particular measurement. I'm going to erase it from the previous group of data captures because it isn't dependable data. It must be something to do with the noise floor in my house. The bass decay chart, distortion chart, and especially FR chart weren't as variable between sweeps - so those are the captures I'll leave in place.

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post #35 of 121 Old 10-26-2014, 10:01 AM
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Could you hear a difference or are you waiting until you get all three stuffed.

Cool that you could see a clear difference in the measurement. I know you lose a little down low, but getting rid of that ripple may be worth it in the end.

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post #36 of 121 Old 10-26-2014, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I did some additional testing on the reverb decay --- I've just noticed it's too volatile to mean anything. Each measurement is slightly different and there is no way to average that particular measurement. I'm going to erase it from the previous group of data captures because it isn't dependable data. It must be something to do with the noise floor in my house. The bass decay chart, distortion chart, and especially FR chart weren't as variable between sweeps - so those are the captures I'll leave in place.
Great thread. The value proposition for speakers in this price range is unbelievable. The fact that these Mackies were preferred to the JTR 228's is remarkable. I really do wonder how they would compare to my M2's?

The upcoming gtg at Andrews will be interesting for me. Like you, I'm not afraid to challenge my assumptions or beliefs, and that's why I pushed for the GTG against all comers. The question to be answered for me is not just is the less expensive speaker better or equal? That's good to know for sure, but the more important question for me is this: Does rigorous design with thorough objective measurements and blind subjective testing result in an audibly better speaker than a less rigorously and objectively designed speaker?

And that is not meant as a slight to JTR in any way. It's just the reality of the resources and access to research of the two companies. Blind is the only way to determine this because I know that I want to believe that the more rigorous and objectively measured design will sound better. No way I could be objective in a sighted comparo.
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post #37 of 121 Old 10-26-2014, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
Could you hear a difference or are you waiting until you get all three stuffed.

Cool that you could see a clear difference in the measurement. I know you lose a little down low, but getting rid of that ripple may be worth it in the end.

I haven't tested yet - but because I was measuring with 1/48 octave measurements and our ear hears somewhere between 1/3 and 1/6 - I'm not sure how much this little venture will be audible. I've discovered I'm fully susceptible to placebo. So like you say -- either way - it's nice to know the measurements at least say it should be better.
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post #38 of 121 Old 10-26-2014, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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One thing I did today just for giggles is I measured all my speakers on the same stand on the same setup I took the initial measurements. 2 of the 9 have an odd deep dip in the FR around the crossover frequency and yet the other 7 of the 9 overlay pretty well.

What do you guys think of these two?????? I wondering if something is wired wrong internally (polarity or something?) - since the others overlaid correctly and these two sort of overlay each other as well...

The red is my original measurement from above and the measurement that generally trends with the other six similar speakers. The gray and the orange fr results don't trend with the other seven as you can see. These are all unstuffed measurements.

I'm a bit embarrassed about this because I've taken a couple of these apart for pictures and so I probably am suspect here. Maybe I didn't get one of the drivers wired back up in the correct polarity in these two speakers? Thoughts?

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post #39 of 121 Old 10-26-2014, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
One thing I did today just for giggles is I measured all my speakers on the same stand on the same setup I took the initial measurements. 2 of the 9 have an odd deep dip in the FR around the crossover frequency and yet the other 7 of the 9 overlay pretty well.

What do you guys think of these two?????? I wondering if something is wired wrong internally (polarity or something?) - since the others overlaid correctly and these two sort of overlay each other as well...

The red is my original measurement from above and the measurement that generally trends with the other six similar speakers. The gray and the orange fr results don't trend with the other seven as you can see. These are all unstuffed measurements.

I'm a bit embarrassed about this because I've taken a couple of these apart for pictures and so I probably am suspect here. Maybe I didn't get one of the drivers wired back up in the correct polarity in these two speakers? Thoughts?

I'm thinking that you're thinking what I'm thinking. "Where is that darn screwdriver when you need it?"

Yea, I would check them internally. That's clearly not right.
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post #40 of 121 Old 10-26-2014, 02:01 PM
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That looks like it could very well be a polarity problem, check the driver wiring on one of the bad ones and compare it to a good one.
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post #41 of 121 Old 10-26-2014, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Worked outside today around the house - when I came back in this evening I popped out the drivers in both cabs and looked inside. The compression drivers in both were wired to the wrong polarity. Fixed it. Re-measured. Darn close to the others, just as you would expect.

my bad. I'm glad I have measuring tools.


I guess I'll buy more polyfill at some point to do the other 6 cabinets. I wonder why Mackie doesn't spend the extra $2 dollars to stuff it with polyfill? they went as far as making the cabinet odd shaped specifically to avoid internal reflections according to the manual - but zero poly?
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post #42 of 121 Old 10-26-2014, 07:49 PM
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Because poly reduced the output and because its a cheap speaker.

This is something I've repeated in threads about cheap PA speakers. They're amazing value, but they make PA compromises that we wouldn't. Hearing those compromises can be hard, but they're still real. You're right we hear about 6th smoothing, but that's our ability to identify response variation. All the little things like CSD, narrow band response variation, etc do add up.

You've done a great thing taking the time to investigate and make this speaker better.
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post #43 of 121 Old 10-27-2014, 02:54 AM
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great work!


the behavior at 300hz is the reflection off the rear of the enclosure coming back through the cone(?) looks like stuffing damped that right out.


not sure how resonant the cabs are. some clay stuffed into the various "cells" inside the cab/horn might deaden the cabs down further. weight is typically a drawback for p.a., but an advantage for h.t.


as a side note:





!!!!!!!!!! ;-)
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post #44 of 121 Old 10-27-2014, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
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I would try another measurement with the mic 1 meter back from the speaker and directly level with the tweeter axis. That distance and position is likely not showing ideal results.

It would also be cool if you disconnected the tweeter, measured just the woofer, and then disconnected the woofer and measured just the tweeter. Without moving the mic position. You could overlay all of the results with omnimic and then we would see the individual drivers along with the overall response.
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post #45 of 121 Old 10-28-2014, 06:41 AM
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Jay, I think he was just trying to see if the polyfill did anything. In that case, even a nearfield would work (maybe even better). Going to far away would leak to much of the room into the measurement and he wouldn't see the fine detail.
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post #46 of 121 Old 12-06-2014, 10:27 PM
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Thanks so much for this thread Archaea!! I can't believe you have me looking exceedingly close at pulling trigger on these. Before I got Ascend Sierra 1's awhile back(4yrs), I was seriously debating on getting like SHO10's from Craig or something similar. These look like perfect segways to compression drivers while admittedly I've never heard before but again, I need more dynamics to match a DTS10! Are these the only comparable PA speakers to say the formidable juggernauts like JTR? .....madness up in here at 2am lol. I'm assuming you use these for LR and C correct? THANKS!
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post #47 of 121 Old 12-06-2014, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't have that much experience with other true PA speakers, so I can't tell you the answer there. Historically, I didn't think much of PA speakers, but the technology in this sector has apparently caught up and they are making nice, inexpensive gear now, that actually sounds good or so it seems. It might serve you well to go to Guitar Center - or whatever other type of local musicians/DJ store is near and hear some other equipment. There is a Behringer 215 thread where that particular speaker is getting a lot of positive press --- a lot of performance for the pricepoint there too - though I personally haven't heard that one either. I bought these Mackie C200 blind because the price I found was silly cheap, and reviews were so good everywhere I looked for DJ/PA use. I imagine the higher end PA speakers will be better - price will help put better drivers into the build - but for my room, in my baffle wall and for movies - these things perform way above their pricepoint. They preform quite good for cinema at any pricepoint, IMO.

@pennynike1 just bought 4 Mackie C200 speakers for Atmos heights, and 4 Mackie C300z speakers for surrounds with two iNuke NU4 6000 watt amps to power them all for his new theater room. His front LCR speakers are Seaton Sound Catalyst 12C, and he has four Seaton Sound Terraform subs. You could PM him and see what he thinks about them for another impression. I've talked to him on the phone and I think his early impressions are he is surprised how good a speaker you can get for so cheap, and they will likely work well for surround speakers with his Catalyst 12C. I don't want to speak for him though. Thing is - he bought all 8 for less than half the price of one Catalyst. So while these aren't Catalyst level by any means - they are quite good for anyone on a budget who wants a cinema type speaker for their theater room. Like I said earlier - IMO - for cinema use - these are quite good regardless of budget. I've been to dozens of avsforum enthusiasts houses for demos. These rank up in the top 10-20% of everything I've heard for cinema use - regardless of price. My biggest gripe in visiting home theaters is when the speakers start sounding small/boxy/tin filled/hollow etc when you turn the volume up towards reference. Most any typical low efficiency home use 'hifi' speaker will do that - even speakers that cost thousands of dollars. These don't. You can turn them to reference levels and they don't change their sound characteristics. There are sweeter speakers for music, like high end Salk or Ascend with a ribbon tweeter, but those types of speakers won't typically do as well for movie dynamics and loud volumes. The first time you hear a decent PA speaker on a movie for home theater use - it'll be hard to go back to a hifi speaker for movies because they just can't give you the dynamics. You can get a speaker that does both - but you are spending thousands of dollars per speaker, instead of a couple hundred - something like the JTR, Seaton, or Triad come to mind. And lest you get too concerned about these Mackies sounding bad for music - recall that they are first and foremost a DJ music speaker -- meant to host music at parties and public events - and for that purpose the reviews all over the nets speak to their ability. 4-5 star reviews everywhere for the C200, SRM350, C300Z, and SRM450 (passive 10", active 10", passive 12", active 12")


Most of the musician stores like Guitar Center, Musician's friend etc have free return policies. IMO, buy a set and see what you think - not much risk, if any. That's what pennynike is doing. He's trying them out on my recommendation - if they don't meet his expectations he'll either take, or ship them back. He's got 30 days to decide.


Regardless - the Mackies will be quite a bit more dynamic than your Ascends. I predict you'll really like a set of these significantly more for movie watching. You can keep your Ascends handy for 2 channel stereo perhaps. If you are buying new make sure and use a 15% off coupon from one of the online stores. They are available at most any holiday - you just call it in.

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post #48 of 121 Old 12-06-2014, 11:15 PM
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Thanks so much for the detailed reply. Wow, I'm cancelling my Horizon order asap. You're absolutely right about there being simply no substitute for dynamics for cinema use. While my Sierra 2's do of course sound great with music with the RAALs, they would be much better suited for a living room with more music/cinema mix. I'll check out the Behringers but I'll probably order LCR; for $600 shipped to the door, you just can't beat it. Man, you made my month sir. I was so torn as I simply don't have the time now for a SEOS or equivalent build and wanted them so damn bad. If I end up getting them, I'll be sure to do some measuring. I'll have to throw some poly in etc. and see what's up and post results here; really though they aren't bad at all with my novice eyes. Where are you crossing them at? I may have missed that.
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post #49 of 121 Old 12-07-2014, 12:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Audyssey and my Denon and Onkyo set them to 60Hz before I stuffed them with poly. Now it is setting them to 80 or 90Hz after the poly stuffing.

I typically set them to 80Hz after running audyssey.

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post #50 of 121 Old 12-07-2014, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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@JW6


Musicians friend has 17% off today (last day is 12/7/14) on orders of $199 or more for Cyber Savings week.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pages...14?src=3TP4M7A




They say there are exclusions on coupons in the fine print and the 15% off type coupons generally won't work online in your cart on those items, but typically if you call it in, these types of companies will give you a different coupon code, or adjust the price in your cart. They aren't required to do it - but they often do. Definitely worth a call to see.





With the coupon code...
$750 for three C300Z (12" passive variant)
or $500 for three C200 (10" passive variant that I own).


DEFINATELY hard to look the other way at those prices.






SamAsh.com also has x of x coupons through 12/7, but they only carry Mackie's active line. Stay away from the Mackie Thump from what I've read, it's their budget entry and not as accurate for home theater/monitor use.
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post #51 of 121 Old 12-07-2014, 11:21 AM
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Just something to keep in mind, the c300z is a fairly large speaker compared to the c200. The c200 also has a wider vertical dispersion pattern, but a 90 hz frequency response. The c300z is supposed to have a 60 hz frequency response. Oddly, audyssey xt32 on my marantz av7702 tried to assign a 110 hz crossover on the c300's yesterday when I placed them for side surrounds.
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post #52 of 121 Old 12-07-2014, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Likely a room issue based on specific speaker placement as it relates to your main listening/first mic position. When is your REW mic coming in?

I have something similar with my rear wall C200 speakers.

My side wall C200 get set to 60 hz before poly, 80 or 90hz after poly stuffing, same as the front baffle wall. However my rear wall C200 speakers get set to 120hz. Looking at the omnimic frequency response capture, there is a large room mode at my listening position that tricks the auto room EQ into thinking the speakers start dipping there and so it sets the -3dB point and changes that to the crossover setting.

You can try moving your c300z speaker stands forward or backwards a couple feet and run it again - something that is just guess work unless you have a measuring system and can see what the speaker frequency response is doing when you move it and take another sweep (preferably in real time like the omnimic.)


On a side question, have you had the chance to compare the C200 to the C300z in stereo use much yet? I'm curious how big a difference there is when the two are placed in the same position and compared?

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post #53 of 121 Old 12-07-2014, 12:19 PM
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Wow man, thanks so much. Coincidentally I found/used via slickdeals the 15%...hmmm. I still can't believe these haven't been a/b'ed to the berrys. Speaking of nulls/modes, REW literally saved a set of my mains (Sierra 2's) from being destroyed after amp clipping/ over compensation in the 80-300hz region via XT32.
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post #54 of 121 Old 12-07-2014, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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JW6,

Care to buy a pair of Mackie C300z to compare to the Behringer 212XL you purchased today? Both 12" drivers.

Winner stays....loser gets returned?

I'm selfishly curious...but got rid of some CC debt and don't want to go into more right now.

Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #55 of 121 Old 12-07-2014, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
JW6,

Care to buy a pair of Mackie C300z to compare to the Behringer 212XL you purchased today? Both 12" drivers.

Winner stays....loser gets returned?

I'm selfishly curious...but got rid of some CC debt and don't want to go into more right now.
HAhaha, you crazy bastard. You just saved me more money calling back Musician's friend for the 2% difference. Man I'm sitting here watching football and already spending money I don't necessarily have lol (seriously lol). Man, I felt bad going down the Behringer route as if it wasn't for you I would have went with the Ascend route (for music and a little bit of cinema they are phenomenal). Dude, am I missing something here: Why aren't these PA speaker companies jumping on the HT bandwagon?! All they have to do is rework their XO and they're all ready furthering everyone's cause. Look at the Behringer EP4000; I would love to see the market share on that amp with regard to HT usage. Must be marginal otherwise ...damn.

Edit: dude, it was meant to be...just found 5 left over speakon connectors from god knows what

Last edited by JW6; 12-07-2014 at 01:11 PM. Reason: the dude would abide.
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post #56 of 121 Old 12-07-2014, 03:43 PM
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I can't imagine that the behringer speakers will perform as well as the mackie speakers in a home theater setting due to the dispersion pattern. I looked at that before deciding to test out the mackie speakers.
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post #57 of 121 Old 12-07-2014, 04:04 PM
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Look at the fine print before purchasing from musicians friend. Sure, they will return your money if u want to return, but u have to pay the return shipping cost and their original cost to ship the speaker to u.
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post #58 of 121 Old 12-07-2014, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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In store return an option?

and original shipping cost to you is free from musicians friend right?

Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #59 of 121 Old 12-07-2014, 07:27 PM
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Shipping was free

I don't believe musicians friend has physical stores. Shipping was free to me, but if I wish to return, I would need to pay to ship relatively heavy speakers back to them, and then face paying whatever they paid (as far as I understand) to originally ship the speakers to me. I don't know what it cost them to ship them to me, but considering the weight of them, I am sure it wasn't cheap.




Quote:
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In store return an option?

and original shipping cost to you is free from musicians friend right?
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post #60 of 121 Old 12-16-2014, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I just bought a couple Mackie C300z, pretty much out of curiosity to compare to my Mackie C200. If there is a noticeable difference then I'll use these two as L/R and put the current L/R Mackie C200 on the ceiling with the other pair for an ATMOS setup. I'd probably then pick up a third C300z for a replacement center channel.
If there isn't a noticeable difference then I'll just return or resell and pick up another pair of C200 for the 2nd set of Atmos ceiling speakers at some point.

There are some nice 15%-17% off coupons floating around right now, and most of these companies price match with each other.

Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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