Need help designing serious bass solution for a big theater..horns vs ported or both? - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 505 Old 08-06-2014, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
"Does the multiples lead to a better response than say 3 or 4 bigger 18"? How come?"


I was just working within the limitations that you had set forth.


The quad infinity sub has more sensitivity and the same max spl as a single uxl 18".


The quad infinity sub is larger.


They are tuned the same.


The quad infinity will cost about half as much for drivers as the uxl sub.
Wow, that is certainly something to think about for those of us who have limited budgets, (and lots of room for big enclosures!). I have been in the process of completing my dedicated theater room, (will post pics in just a few), got all of the parts, and am getting ready to start on the enclosures for my Seos-15 left and right mains with a Seos-18 center.

I would really like to build a front stage, and a riser for my seating area, which will be two rows of two seats each, I am just not sure if this is practical given my ceiling hight is only 8ft.

If I do end up building a stage and riser, I would really like to add 8 of these Infinity subs built into my riser. This would add to my existing quad full sized MartySubs that each run an HO18 powered by an iNuke3000 for each pair. I also have some MFW-15's that I need to find a use for!
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post #392 of 505 Old 08-06-2014, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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You might be better just getting cheap car sub boxes (or making some) and placing them on the sides or back of the seats. Near field would work better and it's easy to remove, undo, or experiment with.
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post #393 of 505 Old 08-07-2014, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Does the UXL18 work in the lilwrecker ? Or not enough space for the driver ?
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post #394 of 505 Old 08-07-2014, 10:49 AM
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Doesn't work. Too small for an 18".
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post #395 of 505 Old 08-07-2014, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm saying a prayer every night that LilMike designs me up a "neighborhood wrecker" with dual 18 UXL's
My wish might be coming true


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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post
Wow! ^

Awesome thread from the perspective it's goal and build is exactly what I want!
I've never in my life seen a thread start so good and end so bad though

I've thought about it some more and I do prefer horns. I like them inherently for their ability to lay down clean bass and unlimited dynamic range like no other. But they are big and difficult to build and also expensive to build. I'd like to build unobtainium though; I'd like to design and build something that some traditionalist WAF factored pussy couldn't write a check for $10k and buy because it either doesn't exist or no one has the balls to make it.

Something like a house wrecker. [God I love that name too. !]

So I've been PM and email LilMike a little trying (begging him) to help me or do a joint project. He's neck deep in a home remodel, working etc.. and just doesn't have the time or budget right now to really chase things but he is willing to do something with me since he is wanting to do something for his own theater (which is also under construction now).

So I am happy to report this project might have taken another turn, this time we have turned back around and headed at high speed straight back to CRAZY LAND!

Something that should one up a housewrecker or ghorn, a dual driver tapped horn with elite level drivers. Uncharted waters. But hopefully if things go well I'll get to build a horn and measure this year before I do a final project when I get it right. Something like this is a work in progress, and will take some revision most likely. Fawk doing something average. Nah... Not doing it. I've got a year or two to get this "epic". If I try and fail then I'll just port a build ported subs and port low and go with a lot of volume in the enclosure. But ideally I think I want something cleaner and more violent. I want a NEIGHBORHOODWRECKER!

I might need to retreat from this thread and project for a short time until I have something worthy of sharing, but that won't be a bad thing. Rome wasn't built in a day.
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post #396 of 505 Old 08-07-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
My wish might be coming true




Wow! ^

Awesome thread from the perspective it's goal and build is exactly what I want!
I've never in my life seen a thread start so good and end so bad though
I don't have room to do a house wrecker or lil wrecker in my HT, but I am going to do the microwrecker. It's really still too big for my space but I'm really wanting them.

Reading this thread reminded me that I have a huge attic above my 3 car garage that is unused. It's unfinished and unconditioned. But maybe I will turn it into a bass chamber. Like not an IB; I mean a room just to do crazy ass mad scientist bass designs as a listening room.
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post #397 of 505 Old 08-07-2014, 08:55 PM
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Teaming up w/ lilmike is best thing I have heard on this thread. Very interested to see what he comes up with for a solution for his and your space...

JSS
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post #398 of 505 Old 08-08-2014, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post
Teaming up w/ lilmike is best thing I have heard on this thread. Very interested to see what he comes up with for a solution for his and your space...

JSS
Dual large elite drivers in a double driver tapped horn and large volume enclosure, 15hz @ 125db+ at grounplane or bust. That's the goal anyways.

I'm smart enough to know I'll find better success with his help than without it His own theater project and sub project happens to align with mine so it's a match made in heaven for me. I'm willing to build and measure in exchange for his guidance. This will be a work in progress I think, I'm not expected version 1 to be the final solution. If I am being honest I also absolutely loved the name "neighborhood wrecker" too... it immediately excited me and pulled me in closer! I can wait to wreck my neighborhood
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post #399 of 505 Old 08-08-2014, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Expanding a little:

My concern of integrating the side "smoothing" subs with main event subwoofer system is still in my mind. But I am not exactly sure if my concerns are well placed, or misplaced. Porting different systems at different tunes will change the phase and create small problems the same as if mixing a ported and a horn or a horn and a sealed, or a ported and a sealed (which is most problematic).

...

Odd question, anyone ever made a DIY slider system to close a port on a DIY system ? That seems easy to do too. I could switch from ported to sealed by blocking the port. It would be a big box for sealed, but would work. See.. I just get too crazy... haha

The problem with mixing dissimilar systems is that for the "smoothing" concept to work, they all need to be playing at approximately the same SPL. This means the total distortion of the system is limited by the weakest link.

And even if the distortions are acceptably low, the distortion signatures will be different. The last thing you want is more unwanted frequencies.


All that to say, I would highly recommend starting with REW's room mode calculator and actually identify where you need speakers located in the room. Once you've identified where the acoustic sources need to be, then you can decide which form-factors maximize your performance.

Seriously, start with the room modes. As awesome as some of these bass horns look, the mouth is probably firing into the wrong spot of the room.


ALso, have you read this thread yet?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...s-concept.html



You simply cannot get better modal response than this approach. Do it with whatever speakers you want, but the approach itself is so crazy elegant awesome and easy to implement.



Btw, you can splay a bass horn so that the sound exits in multiple locations....you could probably pull off something like this in the front and back of the room if you really want a horn.





As to your other question - yes, I made a variable port design about 10 years ago using a JBL 2226H. There were 5 ports and you could change the tune by plugging them one at a time - or plug all of them and go sealed. I would not recommend this approach anymore though and could go into the reasons if you really want to understand why. It has to do with optimizing the design of the port itself (there's lots of nonlinearities to consider and avoid).

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post #400 of 505 Old 08-11-2014, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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See, that is not what I was told by a few folks. Shawn Byrne from Erksine group told me in a PM that "You don't need to go that low in frequency for the balancing sub. It isn't necessary due to the nature of the modal fundamental frequency in the room. Your problems don't begin till you hit those frequencies which are usually around 30 Hz or above, which is why bass thumping subs are not needed for a balancing sub."

I was also thinking that (8) infinity 1260's would be "enough" for a balancing sub. This is nearly a proper bass solution unto itself isn't it ? The output at the frequencies I would need should be sufficient right ?
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post #401 of 505 Old 08-11-2014, 12:40 PM
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The smoothing subs don't have to operate over the same bandwidth, for sure. The thing I'm not sure about is what SPL do they need to be able to provide at the modal frequency of concern. I think it's a good idea to limit the bandwidth of the smoothing sub to the problematic range.

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post #402 of 505 Old 08-11-2014, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Even then... 8 infinity 1260's even if sealed should do what... 130db ? from say 25hz-80hz. That's all for under $500 in drivers You telling me I need to double them up and go with (16) of them ?
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post #403 of 505 Old 08-11-2014, 04:18 PM
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Byrne is correct that in order to fill the gaps at the modal frequencies that it doesn't need to dig as low, but no matter how you cut it the "smoothing sub" will still have its own sonic signature (aka distortion). If you find that signature acceptable, then you might as well roll that solution across the board...

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post #404 of 505 Old 08-12-2014, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBentz View Post
Byrne is correct that in order to fill the gaps at the modal frequencies that it doesn't need to dig as low, but no matter how you cut it the "smoothing sub" will still have its own sonic signature (aka distortion). If you find that signature acceptable, then you might as well roll that solution across the board...

So with regards to adding more subs to fill in the modal frequencies, I am curious if you have say a dip at 45hz, you could add any subwoofer that is reasonably good to fill in at any of the model frequencies as long as it has comparable SPL at those frequencies, regardless of its extension? (Assuming that it would easily go down lower than the model frequency you are trying to cover)

I guess an easier way to put it would be.....let's say you have two SI 18HT subs each in its own 8cuft vented enclosure tuned to 18hz. The room has a modal dip at 45hz and 65hz. You could then add a pair or quad set of Infinity 1260w's to fill in and smooth the response at those 45hz and 65hz modal dips as the extension is not a factor in this situation because the lowest dip is 45hz which the Infinity 1260w can reach down to with ease, right?
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post #405 of 505 Old 08-12-2014, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Generally more subs in more locations has a natural correction or smoothing effect as it is, even before EQ or calibration. If you can get subs on all of your walls and some elevated up off ground theoretically you should have good bass provided your LP isn't near a boundary.
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post #406 of 505 Old 08-12-2014, 08:21 AM
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Cool

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...Most of the time you hear people complain about size, or space... or WAF. NOT HERE! This isn't going to be some pussified WAF factor build.WHAT SAY YOU? Am I just crazy ?
Mike, I've never met you, but I like your style & yes, you are crazy
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post #407 of 505 Old 08-18-2014, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Mike, I've never met you, but I like your style & yes, you are crazy
Haha! Thanks!
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post #408 of 505 Old 09-09-2014, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm headed to CEDIA this week, is there anything I should check out that is bass solution related ?
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post #409 of 505 Old 09-09-2014, 07:46 AM
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I would have a look at the Epson, Kaleidoscope, Stewart Screen, Sony and quite a few others. I believe the ones I mentioned will all be right next to each other. Would problem look at the Triad booth also. Integra, Control 4, Crestron, Universal Remote and Datasat booths.

Of coarse these are just the ones I know of. I am sure I would look at almost everything and of coarse one of my favorite companies Christie booth. Gotta dream about things I can ever afford.

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post #410 of 505 Old 09-19-2014, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I would have a look at the Epson, Kaleidoscope, Stewart Screen, Sony and quite a few others. I believe the ones I mentioned will all be right next to each other. Would problem look at the Triad booth also. Integra, Control 4, Crestron, Universal Remote and Datasat booths.

Of coarse these are just the ones I know of. I am sure I would look at almost everything and of coarse one of my favorite companies Christie booth. Gotta dream about things I can ever afford.
Epson 6030 was impressive. For the cash, not much else that can touch it. Sony was cool, but they used a dual stack of projectors on a stupidly large 220" screen so it was hard to compare. JVC looked great.

Triad was as usual disappointing. I thought the Dolby (the official dolby atmos demo) was disappointing, mostly because of the speakers (TRIAD) and compared to the JBL synthesis demo it was no where near as good.

If I was a billionaire I would buy a Christie projector in a heart beat.

Kaliedoscope is pure crap. Seriously. The cost and the crappiness of that system can't be understated, I can build a better system for 1/20th the price. It's no where near as nice as my set up at home. I hate products that lock your media away or make you pay a ransom to unlock it in each room.

The best demo for me was the JBL Atmos demo, the Auro 3D (very cool!) and a private demo I got at another hotel with a few of the top HAA calibrators in a fully optimized and treated room. That was mind = BLOWN. Best audio I've heard, better than anything on the CEDIA floor.
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post #411 of 505 Old 10-21-2014, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The ported system is -3 at like 10hz. I don't use the crowsons just to fill in under that, they add huge tactile feedback lost to the slab. At the risk of sounding like a salesman, they're really really good and add so much to the experience. Even with music.
I think I need to make the trip for some big theater experience soon
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post #412 of 505 Old 10-21-2014, 12:51 PM
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I think I need to make the trip for some big theater experience soon
do it up
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post #413 of 505 Old 12-02-2014, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Have you ever been to the JBL professional and harman luxury demo experience store in Manhattan?
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post #414 of 505 Old 12-18-2014, 07:20 AM
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What happened to Soho? He designed a FLH for my Mal21s and disappeared right after.
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Was he the one that committed suicide ? Someone folding a horn did.
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Krypto did but I've never heard what happened to Soho.
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Someone pointed out that if you check his profile in some of the forums he used to post in it looks like he has visited since he stopped posting but he doesn't post anything anymore.
I don't think I am dead. Just too busy living. I do check in every year or so though.

Just remember the iron law, and that there is no replacement for displacement. This is doubly true for subs.
Don't over think it.

How much SPL do you really need? (then add 6-12dB) How much space can you really give up? How much total money is there? Figure things out in that order, and everything else will fall into place.

That said, I do prefer multiples over one uber driver in almost all real world settings.
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post #415 of 505 Old 12-18-2014, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think I am dead. Just too busy living. I do check in every year or so though.














I got a good plan for the subs I just need to finish up these LCR first. I got someone helping me
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post #416 of 505 Old 12-18-2014, 12:47 PM
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This is a nice ported design simmed from the Dayton Audio UM18-22 subwoofer driver. Each box uses two drivers. It's a big box at 2' x 4' x 4', but has exellent flat output between 15hz and 120hz. NWCgrad brought it to my attention in my theater room thread. He ran across the sim in the DIYAudio forums.

Here is the link
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/255400-reproducing-16hz-pipe-organ-note.html

Four of these drivers for $1000
Two iNuke DSP 6000 amps for $800 (1 channel per driver)
Wood, connectors, wiring, material = $500-$700ish?

You are then sitting on a effortless subwoofer home theater system for $2.5k.


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@Archaea, Here you go for plenty of headroom down low, ran across this today on diyAudio. Was specifically designed by member tb46 to reproduce 16Hz pipe organ. Design uses 2 of your drivers, thus you could multiple for way over the top bass! It isn't small or for the faint of heart.


This design would be a member of an exclusive club, even the best systems on data-bass.com do not get higher, the Gjallarhorn comes close @ 118.3dB/16Hz, the DTS-10 LMS-R falls of another 2.3dB (NOTE: The data-bass are actual measurements in a 2xPi environment and not simulation).









Archaea's 9.12.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 12-18-2014 at 12:54 PM.
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post #417 of 505 Old 12-18-2014, 01:16 PM
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I haven't read the DIY Audio thread, and the answer might be there, but why wouldn't you do that in a DO. Seems like a natural for that setup.

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post #418 of 505 Old 12-18-2014, 02:01 PM
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This design is ported, not sealed.
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Archaea's 9.12.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #419 of 505 Old 12-18-2014, 07:49 PM
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No way you could get 16 Hz in a church with sealed, at least not at the SPL's required for a pipe organ. For a house DO could be doable.

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post #420 of 505 Old 12-18-2014, 08:13 PM
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Is there some reason or rule that says a dual-opposed design has to be sealed? Or is that just the normal case, so you guys assume that? I mean, it would limit some placement options and stuff, but I don't see why the drivers couldn't (shouldn't) be moved to opposite surfaces in that design.
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