MartySub FAQ - Page 152 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4531 of 5032 Old 08-09-2018, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
So from the walls to the center of the rails is ~7” like poorly illustrated below?
Honestly, it doesn't really matter except for aesthetics. If they're a little off no big deal performance-wise.

Centers on 7 and 14" would be just fine, don't overthink it.
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post #4532 of 5032 Old 08-11-2018, 04:42 PM
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Sorry if this has been covered — I gave a search a try with not much coming back. For those of you with a Full Marty (17 Hz), has it been good for music as well?

Someone mentioned in another thread about their subwoofer not really impressing them for music in the first two octaves (or content between 30 to 80 Hz). It wasn’t a Marty, but it was a large ported box tuned to 14 Hz. If maybe two smaller UM15 Micro Martys would work better for 80/20 music to movies then I would switch my plan over a single 18” Full Marty with the UM18. I plan on using the iNuke 6000DSP or similar.

My room is 12’ wide x 30’ long. Thanks for the help deciding! I can’t afford everything right now but I want to get the enclosures built.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...topics/2958434
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post #4533 of 5032 Old 08-11-2018, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bafflesteppe View Post
Someone mentioned in another thread about their subwoofer not really impressing them for music in the first two octaves (or content between 30 to 80 Hz). It wasn’t a Marty, but it was a large ported box tuned to 14 Hz. If maybe two smaller UM15 Micro Martys would work better for 80/20 music to movies then I would switch my plan over a single 18” Full Marty with the UM18. I plan on using the iNuke 6000DSP or similar.
I believe you're asking way too much of a giant 18" cone to produce anything more than ULF. Not only is the driver busy delivering some pretty difficult work at those low frequencies, but given the moving mass, it isn't as well suited to the higher bass frequencies in the first place. My Marty is done and crossed out at 50 (at 18db/oct).
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post #4534 of 5032 Old 08-11-2018, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by labboypro View Post
I believe you're asking way too much of a giant 18" cone to produce anything more than ULF. Not only is the driver busy delivering some pretty difficult work at those low frequencies, but given the moving mass, it isn't as well suited to the higher bass frequencies in the first place. My Marty is done and crossed out at 50 (at 18db/oct).
Huh!? That's the cabinet limiting the upper frequency output not the speaker itself. Tune it higher if need be....
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post #4535 of 5032 Old 08-11-2018, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by brettus View Post
Huh!? That's the cabinet limiting the upper frequency output not the speaker itself. Tune it higher if need be....
I think the "huh" is back on you. I am explicitly crossing out the top end of my sub so that the driver doesn't have to try to reproduce frequencies it is not very good at doing. That is happening well before where the driver might try to operate without being crossed out. While the drive can reasonably emit sound well into the 2k range, that doesn't mean it is good at it, or that you would ever want to hear it. I can't imagine anyone intentionally not using some kind of low pass filter, especially on such a large driver, to eliminate those upper frequencies from the signal. Also, port tuning is not how you would (in any meaningful way) manipulate the low pass.
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post #4536 of 5032 Old 08-11-2018, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by labboypro View Post
I think the "huh" is back on you. I am explicitly crossing out the top end of my sub so that the driver doesn't have to try to reproduce frequencies it is not very good at doing. That is happening well before where the driver might try to operate without being crossed out. While the drive can reasonably emit sound well into the 2k range, that doesn't mean it is good at it, or that you would ever want to hear it. I can't imagine anyone intentionally not using some kind of low pass filter, especially on such a large driver, to eliminate those upper frequencies from the signal. Also, port tuning is not how you would (in any meaningful way) manipulate the low pass.
I agree 100% on all accounts. I have my low pass at 225Hz w/ 24dB butterworth.

As to @brettus

You most definitely do not want a UM of any model in a micro box. The UM’s need a mini sized box at minimum. The Dayton Reference HO is ideally made for the micro. I just built one and it rocks to only be 3.75cuft

| Eqmt | Vizio 4K M50-E1 | Yamaha RX-V681 | iNUKE 3kdsp x2 | Emotiva BasX A-100 | miniDSP UMIK-1 | Monolith M1060 | Monolith USB DAC |
| Sub | Trilithon | Stonehenge Variant Subwoofer - 18” - 9ft³ - 19Hz | Marty | Microcube 390HO - 22Hz | Monolith THX Ultra 12 | Monolith THX Select 10 |
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post #4537 of 5032 Old 08-11-2018, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bafflesteppe View Post
Sorry if this has been covered — I gave a search a try with not much coming back. For those of you with a Full Marty (17 Hz), has it been good for music as well?

Someone mentioned in another thread about their subwoofer not really impressing them for music in the first two octaves (or content between 30 to 80 Hz). It wasn’t a Marty, but it was a large ported box tuned to 14 Hz. If maybe two smaller UM15 Micro Martys would work better for 80/20 music to movies then I would switch my plan over a single 18” Full Marty with the UM18. I plan on using the iNuke 6000DSP or similar.

My room is 12’ wide x 30’ long. Thanks for the help deciding! I can’t afford everything right now but I want to get the enclosures built.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...topics/2958434
You might want to consider the PA subs/woofers like the PA460 if on a budget or B&C is you want more output. If you haven't heard them before you should try and listen to some before you decide on what to go with. There are quite a few people here using PA drivers. @eng-399 might be who you are thinking of that has B&C 21s tuned somewhere around 14-15hz.

I have UM18s and a couple different PA subs and for music, I really like the sound of the PA woofers. The UM18 cannot touch the PA woofers from around 40hz up where most music bass is. They two sound much different. Here is a WIND to give you an idea of what they look like in [email protected]
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HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

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post #4538 of 5032 Old 08-11-2018, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bafflesteppe View Post
Sorry if this has been covered — I gave a search a try with not much coming back. For those of you with a Full Marty (17 Hz), has it been good for music as well?

Someone mentioned in another thread about their subwoofer not really impressing them for music in the first two octaves (or content between 30 to 80 Hz). It wasn’t a Marty, but it was a large ported box tuned to 14 Hz. If maybe two smaller UM15 Micro Martys would work better for 80/20 music to movies then I would switch my plan over a single 18” Full Marty with the UM18. I plan on using the iNuke 6000DSP or similar.

My room is 12’ wide x 30’ long. Thanks for the help deciding! I can’t afford everything right now but I want to get the enclosures built.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...topics/2958434


Sent you a pm
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post #4539 of 5032 Old 08-12-2018, 12:10 PM
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@labboypro @brettus @DaBateman @bscool : Thanks for all the feedback, guys.

You have a PM, @eng-399 .

I like option of doing two smaller Marty Cubes ported to 20 Hz, loaded with the RSS390HO-4 15" or similar. My in-room gain would probably make 17 Hz realistic.

Wouldn't mind changing the design entirely to a pair of PA460 PA subs or the like (VBSS?), as @bscool suggested. Either way, I want to do a matching pair to help with room modes and basic balance and badassery.

Thinking a 21" sub is going to be out of my price range from what I've seen.

Options, options.
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post #4540 of 5032 Old 08-13-2018, 09:26 AM
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HI All - I am going to build a mini marty soon and had a question about the bracing. Does the bracing provide any support for the subwoofer / magnet at all (such as having a vertical brace that supports the magnet) or is the only wood contact with the sub the front baffle?
Is there an agreed upon number of braces / style that is sufficient so as not to waste time / wood?
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post #4541 of 5032 Old 08-14-2018, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazzer55 View Post
HI All - I am going to build a mini marty soon and had a question about the bracing. Does the bracing provide any support for the subwoofer / magnet at all (such as having a vertical brace that supports the magnet) or is the only wood contact with the sub the front baffle?
Is there an agreed upon number of braces / style that is sufficient so as not to waste time / wood?
That seems to be personal preference and depends on how you want to brace the cabinet. I've seen both where the bracing was cut to support the magnet from the sides and I've seen bracing installed between the front and back of the cabinet behind the mounting holes for the driver where the screws go directly into the braces.
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post #4542 of 5032 Old 08-14-2018, 08:39 PM
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Is there a cut list for the full Marty with the port running along the longer side of the cabinet?
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post #4543 of 5032 Old 08-15-2018, 02:27 PM
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I have been reading through the whole MartySub FAQ (going to take a while). And was wondering if what held true in 2014 holds true today....
In terms of value for money the best option would be an Ultimax UM-18 (UXL if you wanna spend more), in some form of marty box (im looking to do a mini), and an inuke 6000dsp? As I start planning / building I just want to make sure i'm not missing some new tech that has come out over the last while. Thanks
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post #4544 of 5032 Old 08-15-2018, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazzer55 View Post
I have been reading through the whole MartySub FAQ (going to take a while). And was wondering if what held true in 2014 holds true today....
In terms of value for money the best option would be an Ultimax UM-18 (UXL if you wanna spend more), in some form of marty box (im looking to do a mini), and an inuke 6000dsp? As I start planning / building I just want to make sure i'm not missing some new tech that has come out over the last while. Thanks

Might be better to ask outside this thread, as this may only be visited by people specifically interested in the Marty. The Marty combo with the UM18 and 6000dsp is sure bang for the buck, but the Marty as far as I know is specifically beneficial due to the cut list easily aligning with common size MDF sheets one can buy today.



That said, if you think about it, it does not have to be a Marty sub, though may be the easisest for a first build as there is probably enough builds and info out there to guide you already. But if you try WinISD, and load one of the readily available UM18 wdr files, you can easily model a box that fits your criteria best. There is a bit of a learning curve, but really not much to it, and you can google pretty much everything needed to learn it.



If you are planning on potentially having 3 or more subs, maybe sealed would be a better option, just note that sealed generally also require more amp power.


Other than that, there is the Sonosub variety that I actually just recently started reading about, maybe if I read about it earlier before planning my current big ported build (LLT?), maybe I would have tried a Sonosub instead. At least maybe read around about it, and try to find out what you might prefer.


As far as other drivers,there are also the PA460 drivers, which are fairly cheap, and very sensitive, but are much better suited for midbass, as opposed to ULF like the UM18.


Then there are also some threads currently about some cheap JBL drivers, of which you can build several subs with and end up with a great system.


Difficult to say what will be best for you, but I'm sure if it is ULF and movie watching you mainly do, building a Mini Marty (or even a Full if you can fit the size), will not leave you disappointed, and might be the most straight forward way if you don't want to spend too much time looking around and reading about the various options out there.


Note also that the iNuke6000DSP is being discontinued / replaced with another model, so may be a bit difficult to find these days. The new model from what I remember was expected to maybe be a bit more expensive, but I may be wrong on this. Other than that, and maybe a dark color, I think it was pretty much more or less the same as the original model.
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post #4545 of 5032 Old 08-16-2018, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by alextr75 View Post
Might be better to ask outside this thread, as this may only be visited by people specifically interested in the Marty. The Marty combo with the UM18 and 6000dsp is sure bang for the buck, but the Marty as far as I know is specifically beneficial due to the cut list easily aligning with common size MDF sheets one can buy today.



That said, if you think about it, it does not have to be a Marty sub, though may be the easisest for a first build as there is probably enough builds and info out there to guide you already. But if you try WinISD, and load one of the readily available UM18 wdr files, you can easily model a box that fits your criteria best. There is a bit of a learning curve, but really not much to it, and you can google pretty much everything needed to learn it.



If you are planning on potentially having 3 or more subs, maybe sealed would be a better option, just note that sealed generally also require more amp power.


Other than that, there is the Sonosub variety that I actually just recently started reading about, maybe if I read about it earlier before planning my current big ported build (LLT?), maybe I would have tried a Sonosub instead. At least maybe read around about it, and try to find out what you might prefer.


As far as other drivers,there are also the PA460 drivers, which are fairly cheap, and very sensitive, but are much better suited for midbass, as opposed to ULF like the UM18.


Then there are also some threads currently about some cheap JBL drivers, of which you can build several subs with and end up with a great system.


Difficult to say what will be best for you, but I'm sure if it is ULF and movie watching you mainly do, building a Mini Marty (or even a Full if you can fit the size), will not leave you disappointed, and might be the most straight forward way if you don't want to spend too much time looking around and reading about the various options out there.


Note also that the iNuke6000DSP is being discontinued / replaced with another model, so may be a bit difficult to find these days. The new model from what I remember was expected to maybe be a bit more expensive, but I may be wrong on this. Other than that, and maybe a dark color, I think it was pretty much more or less the same as the original model.
Thanks alextr75 - Thanks for the insight, much appreciated. I think I am generally set on one of the marty boxes as they are tried and true and seem relatively simple to put together (probably an understatement) for a first time builder. I just wanted to make sure that the technology, subwoofer and amp, havent changed much over the last few years. That's interesting to hear that the iNukes are being discontinued which makes me a bit worried if the replacements are going to be not as good / more expensive. Given my build is a few months away maybe it is better to wait to see if they do release the new model and whether they are an improvement, I could maybe find some of the last legacy iNukes at that point.
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post #4546 of 5032 Old 08-16-2018, 08:00 AM
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I received the below from MusicTribe - They certainly have a better look to them - I wonder if they will be an improvement / better value!

Regarding your inquiry: Behringer inuke 6000 DSP.
The replacement series of amplifiers is the NX series. The specific replacement for the NU6000DSP will be the NX6000D. Based on the information I've been given, the NX series of mixers should be shipping from China this week, and certainly in stores before the end of the year.
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post #4547 of 5032 Old 08-16-2018, 09:08 AM
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Need some help here members... Embarking on my first slot ported sub build. So far I have DIYed sealed boxes for UM 18 and PA-460. Looking to build 2 slot ported sub cabinet (mini Marty) to house a UM18 each. I'm hoping that the subs can be tune to 18Hz thereabouts and reach 12 to 15Hz with room gain.

I have two limitations: (1) depth has to be 18" or less ideally, and (2) height has to be 31" so that I can place my side surrounds on it.

I'll be driving the two subs with a channel each from iNuke 6000DSP. I can't run WinISD with my Mac Air. Three specific queries I hope the members can help with:

1. What should the width of the box be if the depth is 18" and height 31", and the sub tune to 18Hz?

2. What is the length and height of the slot channels?

3. I'm running the PA 460 in a sealed 3 cu ft cabinet, together with the dual UM18. Is there any issue I should be worried about? e.g. phase cancellation at certain frequency?

Any valuable inputs will be much appreciated.

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post #4548 of 5032 Old 08-16-2018, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by storm028 View Post
Need some help here members... Embarking on my first slot ported sub build. So far I have DIYed sealed boxes for UM 18 and PA-460. Looking to build 2 slot ported sub cabinet (mini Marty) to house a UM18 each. I'm hoping that the subs can be tune to 18Hz thereabouts and reach 12 to 15Hz with room gain.

I have two limitations: (1) depth has to be 18" or less ideally, and (2) height has to be 31" so that I can place my side surrounds on it.

I'll be driving the two subs with a channel each from iNuke 6000DSP. I can't run WinISD with my Mac Air. Three specific queries I hope the members can help with:

1. What should the width of the box be if the depth is 18" and height 31", and the sub tune to 18Hz?

2. What is the length and height of the slot channels?

3. I'm running the PA 460 in a sealed 3 cu ft cabinet, together with the dual UM18. Is there any issue I should be worried about? e.g. phase cancellation at certain frequency?

Any valuable inputs will be much appreciated.

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1. 32" Wide would be as small as I would go given your limitations. Even so, it makes for a fairly long port length to achieve an 18Hz tune. 18"D x 31"H x 32"W will give you ~8.0ft^3 after subtracting driver volume, port volume and some moderate bracing.

2. Depends on how you want to do the slot ports. In the front, or out of the side of the box? It's been mentioned (sorry can't find a solid reference) that you don't want your port ratio to be greater than 4:1 because it will start to effect the box tuning when pushed hard. Exactly how much of an issue it causes is a bit beyond my experience. I guess one easy way to fix this would be to add in additional slot port braces, effectively using the port bracing to separate the slots into their own individual ports. Does that make sense? Here are a few options that would fit your box:

Side Ported assuming 18" Box Depth:
4"H x 56"L x 7.875"W / 2 Ports (Takes into consideration .75" Wood Thickness) / 15m/s Port Velocity @18Hz
3"H x 41"L x 7.875"W / 2 Ports (Takes into consideration .75" Wood Thickness) / 20m/s Port Velocity @18Hz

Front Ported assuming 32" Box Width:
2.5"H x 66"L x 7.0625"W / 4 Ports (Takes into consideration .75" Wood Thickness) / 13.5m/s Port Velocity @18Hz
2.0"H x 53"L x 7.0625"W / 4 Ports (Takes into consideration .75" Wood Thickness) / 17m/s Port Velocity @18Hz

3. Sure, you are going to run into some issues with integration. Sealed and ported typically have vastly different transfer functions, so you may have to deal with some phase issues and work the x-over of your PA's and UM's accordingly. Nothing that should be able to be dealt with assuming you have the proper tools (DSP, etc...).

Hope this helps.
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post #4549 of 5032 Old 08-16-2018, 06:27 PM
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Thanks for the inputs. I should be going front ported with nothing protruding out of the box.

If it's 32" width, what's the significance of the different port velocity i.e. 13.5 m/sec and 17.5 m/sec? Which is ideal? I only read that port velocity is recommended to be below 20 m/sec.

I'm assuming that the port length refers to the L-shape slots?



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post #4550 of 5032 Old 08-16-2018, 07:34 PM
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Thanks for the inputs. I should be going front ported with nothing protruding out of the box.

If it's 32" width, what's the significance of the different port velocity i.e. 13.5 m/sec and 17.5 m/sec? Which is ideal? I only read that port velocity is recommended to be below 20 m/sec.

I'm assuming that the port length refers to the L-shape slots?

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All that matters is that you don't hear port cuffing. Not sure at what point cuffing starts, but I would bet my next paycheck that you could tell 0 difference between 13 or 18 m/s at any frequency, much less 18Hz...

In any regard, lower the better.
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post #4551 of 5032 Old 08-17-2018, 08:52 AM
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Quick question, I have a Denon 3400 running into my inuke 3000 then into an si18d4 ported. If I get a 5 channel Emotiva amp, can I run a line from the sub pre-out to the emotiva then to the inuke for a little more juice? Thanks.
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post #4552 of 5032 Old 08-17-2018, 11:16 AM
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Quick question, I have a Denon 3400 running into my inuke 3000 then into an si18d4 ported. If I get a 5 channel Emotiva amp, can I run a line from the sub pre-out to the emotiva then to the inuke for a little more juice? Thanks.
I'm no expert but I think that is a hard no.
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post #4553 of 5032 Old 08-17-2018, 11:23 AM
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Quick question, I have a Denon 3400 running into my inuke 3000 then into an si18d4 ported. If I get a 5 channel Emotiva amp, can I run a line from the sub pre-out to the emotiva then to the inuke for a little more juice? Thanks.

You want to take the amplified output from the Emotiva and plug it into the input of the iNuke? As rec head already said, that would be a horrible idea.
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post #4554 of 5032 Old 08-17-2018, 07:58 PM
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Can someone advise if there will be issues to integrate a mini Marty tuned at 17-18 Hz and a PA460 tuned to 40Hz?

I should be able to build a 4cuft ported to convert the existing sealed PA460, if mixing a sealed (HP at 40Hz) and a ported will cause substantial challenges.

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post #4555 of 5032 Old 08-18-2018, 04:50 AM
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Got a question to all Inuke 6000 users.
I've set a HPF at 20 Hz 12dB But. Same for channel A and channel B, correct so far? Then I set a LPF at 100,2 Hz, 12dB But again.

I've wired both Dayton UM18 22s 1+ and 1- while ignoring the 2s. So I should have a 4 Ohm load on each channel, correct?
What is irritating me atm is that channel A always seems louder, no matter the gain on the Inuke.

When putting the gain up to 100% on Channel B 2 lights turn up with an occasional third coming on and off. Channel A starts clipping at 60% gain.

I run the Inuke in Dual mode. Trying stereo resulted in the same behavior.
It's not the sub either because switching the wires so Sub A is on channel B and vice versa still results in channel A clipping.

Why is that so? Any answers on this? I haven't looked much into it, was the first test and they already blew me away but I want to be prepared once I integrate them into my HT.
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post #4556 of 5032 Old 08-18-2018, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vossten View Post
Got a question to all Inuke 6000 users.
I've set a HPF at 20 Hz 12dB But. Same for channel A and channel B, correct so far? Then I set a LPF at 100,2 Hz, 12dB But again.

I've wired both Dayton UM18 22s 1+ and 1- while ignoring the 2s. So I should have a 4 Ohm load on each channel, correct?
What is irritating me atm is that channel A always seems louder, no matter the gain on the Inuke.

When putting the gain up to 100% on Channel B 2 lights turn up with an occasional third coming on and off. Channel A starts clipping at 60% gain.

I run the Inuke in Dual mode. Trying stereo resulted in the same behavior.
It's not the sub either because switching the wires so Sub A is on channel B and vice versa still results in channel A clipping.

Why is that so? Any answers on this? I haven't looked much into it, was the first test and they already blew me away but I want to be prepared once I integrate them into my HT.

On the UM18-22, if you wire the coils in series, you will have a 4 ohm load.

Are you certain you have the same signal going to each of the inputs on the Behringer amp? IE: Y-cable.

You should not need a second order low pass at 100 hz, unless you are using something other than an AVR with LFE output in the signal chain. In the case of a stereo pre-amp that has no LFE, then you would use a low pass filter .


Did you check to see if you have limiter settings different for each channel?



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post #4557 of 5032 Old 08-18-2018, 07:14 AM
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I didn't use a Y cable so I'm not sure if the same signal is coming to both of the channels. Was just wondering if on the same song two different signals go to each sub channel.

Since I didn't use it on an AVR for the first test I put a low pass on just to make sure.

And wiring them in series for a 4 Ohm load each should result in 1800 watts per subwoofer, correct? Another question: after putting in the HPF and making sure I wired them correctly is there any way to damage the subs? I've destroyed so many Subwoofers in my life so far I'm afraid to have them up and running and being disappointed after the first demos because the subs went out.
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post #4558 of 5032 Old 08-18-2018, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vossten View Post
Got a question to all Inuke 6000 users.
I've set a HPF at 20 Hz 12dB But. Same for channel A and channel B, correct so far? Then I set a LPF at 100,2 Hz, 12dB But again.

I've wired both Dayton UM18 22s 1+ and 1- while ignoring the 2s. So I should have a 4 Ohm load on each channel, correct?
What is irritating me atm is that channel A always seems louder, no matter the gain on the Inuke.

When putting the gain up to 100% on Channel B 2 lights turn up with an occasional third coming on and off. Channel A starts clipping at 60% gain.

I run the Inuke in Dual mode. Trying stereo resulted in the same behavior.
It's not the sub either because switching the wires so Sub A is on channel B and vice versa still results in channel A clipping.

Why is that so? Any answers on this? I haven't looked much into it, was the first test and they already blew me away but I want to be prepared once I integrate them into my HT.

Swap the inputs. Is channel A still louder?

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post #4559 of 5032 Old 08-18-2018, 03:59 PM
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As I said: yes it is. Doesn't matter which sub, it's always channel A.
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post #4560 of 5032 Old 08-18-2018, 04:12 PM
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I said inputs, didn't you say you swapped the outputs?

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