Lilmike's Picowrecker - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 242 Old 11-15-2017, 03:31 PM
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Yeah, so the JBL GT5-10 does work in the picowrecker. A little less efficient than my old horn sub ( a table tuba) but seems to go a bit lower - to 25 Hz. Will confirm later via measurements
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post #182 of 242 Old 11-16-2017, 05:24 AM
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Hello all,


I have been redirected to this thread from the T6 thread, since the Picowrecker has superseeded the T6. It will be my first build and I have no experience regarding speakers or subwoofers, but I do have some carpenting skills.


It's nearly impossible to find one of the recomended drivers for this build in Europe. I did go through the whole thread and there were some other drivers mentioned (The Pinoeer TS W216S, the Ground Zero GRZW225PL and the JBL gt5-10), but those proved no easier to find.


I called the company, that imports Alpine and Ground Zero products in my country, and the salesman said, that the Alpine SWS-10d2 is a US model and the European equivalent is Alpine SWR-10d2. But a comparably good price for the SWR-10d2 is around 160 EUR (thats about 190 $), therefore I'm really not sure it's the same driver. The prices mentioned in this thread are well below 100$, shipping included.


I found these specs for the Alpine SWR-10d2 on the UK Alpine site (in the downloadable manual):
SPL 82dB
Le 1.89mH
Fs 31Hz
Vas 18l
Qms 7.84
Qes 0.54
Qts 0.51
(sorry can't post links yet)


Is this really the same driver as the SWS-10d2? Could it be used for this build? Can anyone recommend a driver I could buy in Europe, that could be used for this build? Preferably one in the price range of the SWS-10d2 in the US . I'm really at a loss as how to go about searching for alternatives.
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post #183 of 242 Old 11-16-2017, 07:35 AM
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After reading through the thread again I found the Alpine SWR has already been mentioned and modeled, but it does not quite fit the bill apparently.


I found this driver: Pioneer TS-W261S4, the specs are attached. Could this one be used as an alternative?
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File Type: txt Pioneer TS-W261S4.txt (902 Bytes, 17 views)
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post #184 of 242 Old 11-16-2017, 11:12 AM
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Ok I know I'm replying to myself for the third time, but I was impatient and tried putting the driver parameters into Hornresp myself (correctly I hope).

The results are attached as a Hornresp export file.

I'm not sure however, if these results are good or bad, since I don't know what I'm looking for exactly and can't really judge what is good, what is still acceptable and what isn't. Any help would be appreciated.
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post #185 of 242 Old 08-28-2018, 07:31 PM
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Would an EV3 10 work? The first page of this thread mentions the EV2, which is NLA.
https://www.sundownaudio.com/index.p...tem/ev3-series
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post #186 of 242 Old 01-08-2019, 08:52 AM
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Looks like the Alpine SWS has been updated/replaced. I'm not sure if the new version will work, but I've always wanted to build one of these to try out a horn design since the size is perfect for between studs.

SWS-10d2 S-W10d2
SPL 85.1 85
Re 1.8+1.8 1.8+1.8
Le 1.87 mH 3.85 mH
Fs 35 Hz 33 Hz
Vas 25 L 24.3 L
Qms 7.54 4.43
Qes 0.52 0.48
Qts 0.49 0.44
Sd 333 cm2 330 cm2
Xmax 15mm 15mm
Xmec 64 mm 64 mm
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post #187 of 242 Old 01-19-2019, 10:21 AM
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Are the Alpine SWS-10s that are available on eBay different than the ones these were originally designed for? I’d like to build a couple as well, and was hoping those are the correct ones.


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post #188 of 242 Old 01-22-2019, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkeyejw View Post
Are the Alpine SWS-10s that are available on eBay different than the ones these were originally designed for? I’d like to build a couple as well, and was hoping those are the correct ones.


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The SWS is the one you want. I've been watching stock disappear online as I try to find the spare change to buy a couple.

@lilmike what are we to do? I'm sure you're busy but have you played with any new designs and/or drivers?
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post #189 of 242 Old 01-22-2019, 03:27 PM
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One thing that seems constant with DIY audio, things change. Drivers come and drivers go, seems like the best ones are gone all too soon. I guarantee some other drivers will work, I just have not gone out and found any. At the moment, there's still far too much going on in real life to spend a lot of time on the forums. Things are all good, just really really busy.

I've shared the HornResp model files for my designs. I've written a tutorial on how to get driver data into HornResp and check to see if drivers work.

For a quick check of a driver, I look at the driver's BL, Re, and Sd and I look at Le and Re. A couple quick calculations can get me an answer in a minute or so presuming the data provided is accurate.

Presuming the basics (Fs, diameter, xmax, and power handling) are a good fit, when BL^2/Re/Sd is about 0.15 to about 0.25, the driver is a pretty good choice for a tapped horn. As I recall, the Pico works well with drivers between 0.15 and 0.20. If Re/Le is less than 1.0, results should be reasonably close to the model. Higher than 1.0, consider using the large coil simulation, or better yet, measure the driver parameters and use the proper non-linear inductance model.

I simply haven't got the free time or spare cash to evaluate alternate drivers for all my designs at the moment, so I provided the tools and approach that I use. Should have some more free time once things calm down, hopefully soon. I really need to make some speakers and subs.
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post #190 of 242 Old 01-22-2019, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post
The SWS is the one you want. I've been watching stock disappear online as I try to find the spare change to buy a couple.

@lilmike what are we to do? I'm sure you're busy but have you played with any new designs and/or drivers?
Aren't these the recommended ones https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item...-SWS-10D2.html
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post #191 of 242 Old 01-24-2019, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Rcris View Post
That looks correct to me. At least, going by the lilmike's post at the beginning this thread.
$99 is not bad at all for drivers...
May have to build me a couple of subs before the active 3-ways I was planning.
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post #192 of 242 Old 01-25-2019, 08:39 AM
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I just bought two of those Alpine drivers you linked to. I feel pretty sure those are the ones! Hopefully we're both right!
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post #193 of 242 Old 01-25-2019, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
I just bought two of those Alpine drivers you linked to. I feel pretty sure those are the ones! Hopefully we're both right!
Maybe you can let me come by and check them out when you get them assembled.
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post #194 of 242 Old 01-25-2019, 09:20 AM
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Sure thing, if you're ever in the Nashville area.
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post #195 of 242 Old 03-02-2019, 11:15 PM
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I just bought two of those Alpine drivers you linked to. I feel pretty sure those are the ones! Hopefully we're both right!
Wondering how are you doing with the build
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post #196 of 242 Old 03-03-2019, 07:38 AM
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Wondering how are you doing with the build
Haven't even started...
We moved into a new house about 6 months ago and I have been fixing it up since then. The audio projects fall to the backburner unfortunately.
I can buy drivers, but building cabinets is not something I'll be able to devote any time to until probably later this spring or this summer.
Amplification is all sorted out. I just need to build the enclosures and hook them up. I'm not gonna lie though, I'm a little intimidated by this build. Ha.
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post #197 of 242 Old 03-31-2019, 03:16 PM
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Weird timing. I have a dual pico setup in garage sound system. Being a basshead and extra funds decided to have 2 more built. Naturally being an AVS overkill scenario I wanted to give 2 to a buddy when done so instead had 4 more built.

Notes. The old version my cabinet buddy and I consumed a lot of beers making. They measured at the mouth exit 1" off. Even so they still hit hard as hell. The SWS10D2 drivers i ordered from sonicelectronix upon delivery are the newer W version. They are more compact and slightly different parameters. Figured I'll install them cause anyway.

I've a fixed HPF at [email protected] on these. Not wanting to spend the time to setup and run REW, figured I'd at least setup a baseline of some kind. The old pair are well broken in and will remeasure to see if any difference with the new ones once broke in good. Took a 40hz 0dB test track and cranked the volume till had 85dB at the mouth of the used 2 picowreckers. At the same volume level measured the new ones at 82dB each. That's 3dB down and expect to improve with break in, but we'll see and hope it's not due to new driver parameters.

Wired up all 6 for fun and to store my buddies cabinets in the mean time. Wired as 2 channel; 3 cabinets(2 ohm DVC's) per channel of a ep4000; 1.33 ohm/CH and the ep4k doesn't seem to mind it even though it's rated for 2 ohm.

With the picowrecker I'd say nobody should be building sealed walls of large drivers if have the space for these. The $/output/footprint over power is just too good especially in multiples. I'd put these up against a wall of 18's any day. Six of these is just absolutely stupid output. Garage space they are in is 32x36. Better than any club with music tracks. At full output before the rcvr clips these slap so hard it has you reaching for the volume to back it off. Pretty serious output and should be called project stupid lol.

Do the W series sws drivers work, yup, but how well not sure yet. They definitely devour the power. Let ya know once broke the suspensions in if they measure closer.

So I present what i'm dubbing the MegaWrecker (10^6)







Note the newer W version on the left with underhung pancake style basket; the older sws on the right ie taller




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"dB levels? - Long as can't foam my beer."

Last edited by autox320; 03-31-2019 at 03:23 PM.
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post #198 of 242 Old 04-01-2019, 09:59 AM
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Happy to report that after leaving on a playlist loop of house music and rap for 6hrs........stuck the db meter at the exit of the new pico's. . . they are literally within 1/2dB of the old ones at the same volume level playing a 40hz 0dB test track. Yes thats a gain after break in of 3db for naysayers if any out there lol. Suspension and spider in particular needs to wear and crack in a bit.

When wide open max volume levels the new ones are larger sounding. Probably just the larger exit ports of the new cab's actually being in spec, combo with newer driver and wiring scheme. Don't know what else to tell ya other than they can run a huge grin on your face. Easily max out the sound meter 130+dB. Have fun Gent's and if thinking of building some of these with the newest flat pancake W type-S driver.....I wouldn't honestly hesitate one bit. Carry on.
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"dB levels? - Long as can't foam my beer."
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post #199 of 242 Old 04-13-2019, 12:01 PM
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Been a couple weeks with these. I only connect 4 and leave 2 offline. I keep the wires capped off but handy for when friends visit to demo the 6 megawrecker array. Can run the ep4k right into the clip lights. The Garage is 3 walls under ground with concrete formed walls. It's a finished garage for required fire code so has drywall over the concrete formed walls with foam board in there. The wall that shares the subs ports was starting to work the screws out The wall flexes and vibrates bad enough after 1 week I put new screws in and added some extras. Then went to my local foam place and bought some nice acoustic double layered foam. Liquid nailed and screwed the foam behind the subs and corner down the wall about half way. Also cut pieces of foam to set the subs on. There's foam between each one as well in the stack to keep them from resonating each other. Murder blacked out the remainder of the exposed wall for the club feel lol. Fixed the wall issue and sounds cleaner.

Working on replacing all CFL lights in the garage to updated LED T8's with plastic tubes. The lights waved and vibrated so bad I thought they'd break eventually so taking precaution. It's time to update and go LED in the shop anyways. Going with Hyperikon's.

Can drive the lady out of the upstairs at will with all 6 hooked up.

Nothing tripped or blown yet and it's been killing some content. Amp has been run hot a few times but never shuts off. I'm using the lower speed 24V fan to be quiet when moderate listening. Had the factory fan in there with no issues whatsoever. I figure not gonna flog it full out all the time so the quiet fan can stay. I tape up the gaps of the duct inside to make sure all airflow possible goes down the heatsink tunnel.

Still ridiculous with 4, but have bass nirvana in the shop. Super happy with these Picos in a stack. Unbelievable. Tapped horns continue to be the shizz.

Edit: I forgot to add that measuring the cabs with the same 40hz 0db track the new ones now measure almost 3 and 4 db consistently higher than the old cabs. Probably the old cab design being off 3/4-1 inch and the newer drivers may be contributing. After punishing the newer W type S drivers I'd say they handle plenty

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"dB levels? - Long as can't foam my beer."

Last edited by autox320; 04-13-2019 at 12:06 PM.
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post #200 of 242 Old 06-26-2019, 02:14 PM
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Looks awesome!
One question. Did you just use regular old 3/4" plywood?
I'm about to build a pair of these.
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post #201 of 242 Old 06-26-2019, 02:51 PM
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Looks awesome!
One question. Did you just use regular old 3/4" plywood?
I'm about to build a pair of these.
I built mine with 3/4 Baltic Burch plywood because I wanted to stain it and have a higher WAF.

Others have built it with nice plywood.
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post #202 of 242 Old 06-27-2019, 09:26 AM
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I built mine with 3/4 Baltic Burch plywood because I wanted to stain it and have a higher WAF.

Others have built it with nice plywood.
Thanks! Subie owner I take it?
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post #203 of 242 Old 06-27-2019, 11:13 AM
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Thanks! Subie owner I take it?
Yes, sir. Though it's broken, the engine had other ideas about what it wanted to do then I did down the front straight at PIR.
It will get rebuilt... just is not 1 on the list of projects. The house always seems to win.
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post #204 of 242 Old 06-27-2019, 11:18 AM
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Yes, sir. Though it's broken, the engine had other ideas about what it wanted to do then I did down the front straight at PIR.
It will get rebuilt... just is not 1 on the list of projects. The house always seems to win.
I hear you. I daily drive a 1998 Outback (ej25), and am looking for either a 2005 Legacy GT (manual trans) or an Outback XT manual.
Love the subies (and aircooled VW's).
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post #205 of 242 Old 06-29-2019, 10:19 AM
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Looks awesome!
One question. Did you just use regular old 3/4" plywood?
I'm about to build a pair of these.
Mine were built using Maple ply and some just using nice grade regular plywood. I'd say closest to cabinet grade so flat and nice cuts without voids.

Titebond and 1-5/8" drywall screws. Construction adhesive inside on the seam corners just for peace of mind. The final side panels were predrilled, caulked with construction adhesive on the panel edges then placed on and screwed with 1-5/8" drywall screws.

Being a bit OCD on sealing the box is essential IMO on TH subs especially. One leak from a fold into another etc and it hinders capability. Drivers bottom and fail early death. Other than that can squeeze lemonade out of these alpine 10's which cost the price of a lemon compared to 15s or 18s


Was just flogging ours for my brothers kid and his friends. Always fun to open them up full tilt for 30min or so at a time.

70s 80s VWs and BMWs here btw Was working on my brothers bus recently; it's a 78 transporter in excellent condition. His family uses it and actually lives in it on occasion.
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"dB levels? - Long as can't foam my beer."
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post #206 of 242 Old 06-29-2019, 02:30 PM
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Nice! I have a 1966 transporter myself.
Was planning to get some plywood but got too involved with burning brush this morning. Been lots of downed limbs around here lately.
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post #207 of 242 Old 06-29-2019, 03:50 PM
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I built my f20’s from 3/4” arco ply which I didn’t mind but I am building two pico’s right now (doing layout on side panels right now) and found myself back using mdf. I find that it doesn’t warp as much with large panels. My f-20’s layed on an uneven floor for a while and when I moved them I put a straight edge across them and found that the were warped “just a little”. And pl for the seams as well. Also found out it is so much easier to put the second side on and screw in the screw in with the layout already done. As far as weight, I’m not worried, the size they are they can be easily moved around with a two-wheel dolly.
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post #208 of 242 Old 07-01-2019, 03:22 PM
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MDF may be cheap and it may be flat, and it may machine beautifully, but it just sucks in so many other ways.

MDF is weak. It doesn't take screws well. It doesn't always glue well. The dust is awful. Whatever you do, don't let MDF get wet, that does not end well. I've built plenty of cabs with MDF over the years, I am just not a fan.

If you can find it, the Advantech OSB is a pretty good material to work with. It is flat, it is a uniform thickness, it seems to machine pretty well, it is stiffer than Arauco, and it is void-free. It glues well with Titebond or PL, the material fails before the glued joints. I use 1 1/4" brads or 1 1/2" narrow crown staples for assembly and biscuits for alignment. Sawdust looks like sawdust too, not the powder from MDF. Only downsides? It is ugly and it is heavy. Heavy I can deal with, ugly's a challenge. Certainly not a stain-grade surface, nowhere close. I'll be coating my Advantech cabinets (some 12" ported mains) with sprayed Duratex. I can't veneer over Advantech without filling and sanding, but then I tend to fill and sand anything I veneer.
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post #209 of 242 Old 07-01-2019, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
MDF may be cheap and it may be flat, and it may machine beautifully, but it just sucks in so many other ways.

MDF is weak. It doesn't take screws well. It doesn't always glue well. The dust is awful. Whatever you do, don't let MDF get wet, that does not end well. I've built plenty of cabs with MDF over the years, I am just not a fan.

If you can find it, the Advantech OSB is a pretty good material to work with. It is flat, it is a uniform thickness, it seems to machine pretty well, it is stiffer than Arauco, and it is void-free. It glues well with Titebond or PL, the material fails before the glued joints. I use 1 1/4" brads or 1 1/2" narrow crown staples for assembly and biscuits for alignment. Sawdust looks like sawdust too, not the powder from MDF. Only downsides? It is ugly and it is heavy. Heavy I can deal with, ugly's a challenge. Certainly not a stain-grade surface, nowhere close. I'll be coating my Advantech cabinets (some 12" ported mains) with sprayed Duratex. I can't veneer over Advantech without filling and sanding, but then I tend to fill and sand anything I veneer.
Thank you for chiming in! I will look for Advantech OSB when I'm at Home Depot next.
I also tend to fill and sand most stuff too so I'm not afraid of that. Glazing putty rocks!
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post #210 of 242 Old 07-02-2019, 01:18 AM
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MDF may be cheap and it may be flat, and it may machine beautifully, but it just sucks in so many other ways.

MDF is weak. It doesn't take screws well. It doesn't always glue well. The dust is awful. Whatever you do, don't let MDF get wet, that does not end well. I've built plenty of cabs with MDF over the years, I am just not a fan.

If you can find it, the Advantech OSB is a pretty good material to work with. It is flat, it is a uniform thickness, it seems to machine pretty well, it is stiffer than Arauco, and it is void-free. It glues well with Titebond or PL, the material fails before the glued joints. I use 1 1/4" brads or 1 1/2" narrow crown staples for assembly and biscuits for alignment. Sawdust looks like sawdust too, not the powder from MDF. Only downsides? It is ugly and it is heavy. Heavy I can deal with, ugly's a challenge. Certainly not a stain-grade surface, nowhere close. I'll be coating my Advantech cabinets (some 12" ported mains) with sprayed Duratex. I can't veneer over Advantech without filling and sanding, but then I tend to fill and sand anything I veneer.
My next "big" box project is going to use the same OSB. I find its not as easy to work with as MDF, but it does glue better and it takes nails WAY better. You could practically hold it together for ever using just nails.
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