SEOS-24, BMS 4594ND, Dual AE TD18H+ - Page 23 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #661 of 696 Old 01-18-2017, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
I don't think the 4595 is even new. The 4594 is still available AFAIK.
Yeah the 4595 has been around a while. 3-4 years ago when I was first looking at the 4594 it was available then.
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post #662 of 696 Old 01-18-2017, 09:51 AM
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Another thing: I forgot how you did the "passive padding" when using active crossover. Can you enlighten me? Thanks.

The center speaker has long been assembled and it's now standing ready to develop the active crossover using a miniDSP 4x10HD.

I have a pair of unused balanced Rothwell attenuators (10dB) that go on the input of the amp. Or am I wrong this works like this?

Building a 9.1.6 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [Surrounds] • Volt 10 altered and added passive radiators [Tops] • LLT 550 liter Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • Marantz MM8003 [2] • NU6000 • XMC-1 [RMC-1 with Dirac Unison wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU
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post #663 of 696 Old 01-18-2017, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
Another thing: I forgot how you did the "passive padding" when using active crossover. Can you enlighten me? Thanks.

The center speaker has long been assembled and it's now standing ready to develop the active crossover using a miniDSP 4x10HD.

I have a pair of unused balanced Rothwell attenuators (10dB) that go on the input of the amp. Or am I wrong this works like this?
Passive pad is 6db:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post34404210

That was enough to use a LG IPD 2400 for the EQ+AMP, and it was much more effective than losing dynamic range in the signal chain.
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post #664 of 696 Old 01-18-2017, 01:51 PM
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Thanks for the link, but isn't that a HF/MF passive crossover that I am looking at? How do you do it when triple active?

Building a 9.1.6 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [Surrounds] • Volt 10 altered and added passive radiators [Tops] • LLT 550 liter Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • Marantz MM8003 [2] • NU6000 • XMC-1 [RMC-1 with Dirac Unison wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU
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post #665 of 696 Old 01-18-2017, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
Thanks for the link, but isn't that a HF/MF passive crossover that I am looking at? How do you do it when triple active?
That's correct. I'm only bi-amping.
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post #666 of 696 Old 01-18-2017, 02:37 PM
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OK, I am having a go as intended and proceed after that. Here's hoping a 4x10HD is better because it is balanced. Fingers crossed.

Unboxed the miniDSP, reread the manual and downloaded REW to my brand new macbook Pro. More in a few days after I connect the amp.

Building a 9.1.6 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [Surrounds] • Volt 10 altered and added passive radiators [Tops] • LLT 550 liter Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • Marantz MM8003 [2] • NU6000 • XMC-1 [RMC-1 with Dirac Unison wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU
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post #667 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
OK, I am having a go as intended and proceed after that. Here's hoping a 4x10HD is better because it is balanced. Fingers crossed.

Unboxed the miniDSP, reread the manual and downloaded REW to my brand new macbook Pro. More in a few days after I connect the amp.
Good luck....That minidsp is going to be VERY noisy in the chain with those CD's, so I hope those attenuators you have really do the trick.
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post #668 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Good luck....That minidsp is going to be VERY noisy in the chain with those CD's, so I hope those attenuators you have really do the trick.
Is the 4x10 HD that noisy? The 2x4 HD has a very low noise floor
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post #669 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
Is the 4x10 HD that noisy? The 2x4 HD has a very low noise floor
Just about anything is noisy when run direct to a 118dB efficient compression driver, with no passive padding in-line.

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post #670 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 07:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Just about anything is noisy when run direct to a 118dB efficient compression driver, with no passive padding in-line.
YUP!

Although the hiss propagates in a frequency that's somewhat naturally attenuated over distance. So it might or might not be a problem for different people. In a relatively large room and distance back for the seating locations it's really unlikely to be a problem. In a smaller room and closer up it's probably more likely to be a problem.

Most know that for each doubling of distance you drop about -6db. But most also forget that high frequencies also naturally attenuate over distance. This can easily be seen when you do a near field measurement in room from a foot back and it's pretty flat, and then drop back to the seat and the top end is dropping off noticeably in that measurement. The distance away really mitigates the problem. If you are very close you should choose the noise floor and products carefully to avoid the problem.

Another thing you can do is lower the gain on the amps and juice the signals levels from the start of the chain and to them. That way if something like a minidsp is adding a little noise you can create a situation where you are not needing to boost the noise quite as much with the amp gain, relative to the actual signal. In some active signal systems you'll be able achieve reference level with the amp gain on 100% and the pre pro volume and minidsp gains not all the way up. Or, you'll be able to achieve the same spl levels with the amp gains turned down, but the pre pro volume and minidsp gains up. If you have a system with headroom and that capabilty you can often benefit from manipulation of the signal level to amp gain ratio so you end up amping relatively more signal and relatively less noise floor. The noise floor hasn't actually changed but the reality sometimes can in your perception.
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post #671 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Even with the 6db pad, the 10x10HD was wayyyyyy to noisy to use with the BMS.
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post #672 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
Is the 4x10 HD that noisy? The 2x4 HD has a very low noise floor
I have yet to hear of a single MiniDSP product that had a low enough low noise floor for use on a compression driver without passive padding. The noise floor for HF is just too high.
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post #673 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
Even with the 6db pad, the 10x10HD was wayyyyyy to noisy to use with the BMS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
I have yet to hear of a single MiniDSP product that had a low enough low noise floor for use on a compression driver without passive padding. The noise floor for HF is just too high.
Could it have been something else? Is the SNR not 114 dB as advertised? My 110 dB sensitive driver is nearly silent on my 2x4 HD with no passive attentuation
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post #674 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
Could it have been something else? Is the SNR not 114 dB as advertised? My 110 dB sensitive driver is nearly silent on my 2x4 HD with no passive attentuation
SNR, or dynamic range, is not the noise floor.
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post #675 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
SNR, or dynamic range, is not the noise floor.
SNR isn't dynamic range either but they're all directly connected.
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Dynamic range is mostly determined by your volume level and capability and the noise floor of the room.
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post #677 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 08:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
I have yet to hear of a single MiniDSP product that had a low enough low noise floor for use on a compression driver without passive padding. The noise floor for HF is just too high.
I've seen this reported many time too. Sometimes the amps have less issue because the dsp card is inside the amp and you don't get external noise entering the process or require digital to analog conversion multiple times. I generally feel if you convert anlog to digital back to analog back to
Digital back to analog back to digital and etc.... it's really not optimal. These days it's common for a source to convert many times before it's played. Each step and wire and unit is another chance to impose noise, distortion or interference.

I've had some experience with the QSC core250i and the F110. If the minidsp is a Chevy the qsc is a Ferrari.
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post #678 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 08:56 AM
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The QSC core250i is apparently discontinued.

Building a 9.1.6 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [Surrounds] • Volt 10 altered and added passive radiators [Tops] • LLT 550 liter Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • Marantz MM8003 [2] • NU6000 • XMC-1 [RMC-1 with Dirac Unison wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU
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post #679 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
SNR isn't dynamic range either but they're all directly connected.
The noise floor of the 2x4HD very well might be lower. I wish they made a balanced version!

A 110db CD vs. a 118db is also a pretty big difference. For my center I'm able to use a DNA-360 and the 10x10HD without the hiss being noticeable at the seats. I could literally hear it outside the room with the 4594.

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I've seen this reported many time too. Sometimes the amps have less issue because the dsp card is inside the amp and you don't get external noise entering the process or require digital to analog conversion multiple times. I generally feel if you convert anlog to digital back to analog back to
Digital back to analog back to digital and etc.... it's really not optimal. These days it's common for a source to convert many times before it's played. Each step and wire and unit is another chance to impose noise, distortion or interference.

I've had some experience with the QSC core250i and the F110. If the minidsp is a Chevy the qsc is a Ferrari.
I ended up with the LG IPD 2400 and it's been great. Noise floor is much lower and I get 20 bands of PEQ.
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post #680 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
The noise floor of the 2x4HD very well might be lower. I wish they made a balanced version!

A 110db CD vs. a 118db is also a pretty big difference. For my center I'm able to use a DNA-360 and the 10x10HD without the hiss being noticeable at the seats. I could literally hear it outside the room with the 4594.



I ended up with the LG IPD 2400 and it's been great. Noise floor is much lower and I get 20 bands of PEQ.
Is there not something else going on there then? The DNA-360 should be exactly 10 dB quieter than the 4594. If you go from an un-noticeable hiss at the seats to being able to hear it outside the room it must be way more than a 10 dB difference.
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post #681 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there not something else going on there then? The DNA-360 should be exactly 10 dB quieter than the 4594. If you go from an un-noticeable hiss at the seats to being able to hear it outside the room it must be way more than a 10 dB difference.
Close mic SPL measurements confirmed it was 10db as well.

Even now the "hiss" can still be heard at the seats if you listen for it, but if you add 10db to the noise floor it's almost comical.

10db in the range our ears are most sensitive goes a long way.

I really wanted to use my CC4000 to power the BMS CDs. With the amp gains at max and the BMS plugged directly into it you had to get your ear within a few inches to hear the noise floor. Plug the MiniDSP into the CC4000 and whoa! HIIIISSSSSSSSS

I love the 10x10 for my subs, center, and the lower portion of the mains though. I'm using all 8 analog outputs on it.
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post #682 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 09:24 AM
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The miniDSP 4x10HD is operating in 24/96 and I am using the balanced inputs and the balanced outputs. I hope this helps.

Building a 9.1.6 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [Surrounds] • Volt 10 altered and added passive radiators [Tops] • LLT 550 liter Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • Marantz MM8003 [2] • NU6000 • XMC-1 [RMC-1 with Dirac Unison wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU
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Quote:
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The QSC core250i is apparently discontinued.
The second model I linked replaced it
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post #684 of 696 Old 01-19-2017, 02:46 PM
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Rothwell attenuators

^ I have 2 of the XLR attenuators (10 dB) and can of course buy a 3rd one (LCR build). If I put one on each HF amp input only, would that be good practice? The mid doesn't need it, correct?

I have the miniDSP now hooked up to the amp and speakers. Tomorrow I am going to hook up my Mac to the miniDSP and try to measure the separate drivers at 1 m and 3 m.

Building a 9.1.6 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [Surrounds] • Volt 10 altered and added passive radiators [Tops] • LLT 550 liter Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • Marantz MM8003 [2] • NU6000 • XMC-1 [RMC-1 with Dirac Unison wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU
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post #685 of 696 Old 02-24-2017, 10:05 AM
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In 1992 I built my first 4-way active system.
To minimize the hiss introduced by a NADY 4-way 24db per octave crossover I did the following steps based on the concept of minimizing gain applied to noise inputs.

(1) Use a CD player with variable outputs.
(2) burn a cd with max volume (0db) sign sweeps and put that in the CD
(3) use an oscilloscope on the cd player output to find the highest gain setting without clipping at any point on the 0dB sweep
(4) connected the crossover and checked each output for clipping. Increase the input gain to max without clipping. (seems it was ok even with gain maxed)
(5) checked each output of the crossover and found the max no-clipping output gains
(6) connect the amplifiers, move the scope to the amp outputs and reduce amp input gains until clipping is absent.
(7) connect speakers except for tweeter and balance the outputs for SPL by reducing amplifier input gain.
(8) reduce the output of the cd player by 20dB or so. Set tweeter amp to minimum gain.
(9) Attach the tweeter. Increase the tweeter amp gain until it's output is balanced with the rest of the drivers.

Steps 8 and 9 are used to avoid burning the tweeter out.
Steps 1 through 7 create a high initial signal level that allows your amplifier gain to be set at the lowest point possible and still be able to reach max power.
With the amp gains at this lowest practical setting, you minimize the amplification of noise from the crossover.

It seems this approach might help reduce noise of your DSP units.

Also there is some possible performance improvement if you replace the single amp and high level passive crossover of the horn driver with a dual amp and passive low level crossover made up of capacitors and resistors. maybe like this:
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/f...ssiveHLxo.html

EDIT:
Currently I use a source with XLR outputs. These "pro" units are usually able to output 14dB higher than "consumer" signal sources. That means a big improvement in signal to noise from the very beginning of the signal chain. There is a jumper in the miniDSP that needs moving to use this option.

Last edited by artsci2; 02-25-2017 at 12:05 PM. Reason: XLR preamp suggestion
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post #686 of 696 Old 05-25-2017, 08:19 AM
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A buddy of mine loves his tube amps and has been drooling over the SEOS-24. One of our ideas is to use the BMS 4594ND in a fully active arrangement. To avoid hiss, we might use a combination of passive line-level and speaker-level high pass crossovers on the HF section of the 4594. From the preamp output a passive circuit will provide some high pass and eq ahead of the tube amp. The tube amp output would then go into a speaker level high pass to form the remaining part of a 24dB/octave LR high pass. This puts only capacitors in the signal chain for the HF section to hopefully minimize hiss.

The LF section of the horn would be fed through a normal active 3-way crossover mid frequency section. (high pass channel unused because it was replaced by the passive implementation and tube amp)
The 18" cone drivers would be fed from the lowpass of the active crossover. (there is also the possibility of using a DSP stereo amp for the LF horn and 18" which would eliminate the need for the active crossover)

Do you feel that the hiss problems would be adequately reduced by this arrangement?
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post #687 of 696 Old 04-01-2018, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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post #688 of 696 Old 05-27-2020, 02:06 PM
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I thought i'd chime in here with my findings. I've recently finished a project using some used gear and i wanted to try the Hypex Ncore Fusion Amps as a basis for the build. Using the Hypex Fusion FA123 amp/XO/dsp my noise floor was non existant on the BMS 4590's i utilized for Mid/High's. I put a JBL 2226 as the lows, been sitting in my closet for 3 years so happy i found a home for them. Saved a bunch of $$$ too by not having to buy seperate amps, pre, crossovers, etc. Pretty fun project and i'm glad i purchased the Hypex Fusion plate amps. Their software for designing the filters is meh, but i got the hang of it after a day.
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post #689 of 696 Old 05-27-2020, 03:22 PM
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^^ What flare are you using for the 4590's please?
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post #690 of 696 Old 05-28-2020, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin AuBuchon View Post
I thought i'd chime in here with my findings. I've recently finished a project using some used gear and i wanted to try the Hypex Ncore Fusion Amps as a basis for the build. Using the Hypex Fusion FA123 amp/XO/dsp my noise floor was non existant on the BMS 4590's i utilized for Mid/High's. I put a JBL 2226 as the lows, been sitting in my closet for 3 years so happy i found a home for them. Saved a bunch of $$$ too by not having to buy seperate amps, pre, crossovers, etc. Pretty fun project and i'm glad i purchased the Hypex Fusion plate amps. Their software for designing the filters is meh, but i got the hang of it after a day.
Interested to know what you are using there... I've never seen that before.
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