mtg90‚??s multiple subwoofers + mains integration How To thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 208 Old 04-24-2017, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
That should be everything you need to do.
Cool. Feel like crap today so let's see how far I actually get if I even get started...
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post #92 of 208 Old 04-24-2017, 10:51 AM
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I've started but getting hung up..... I'm trying to import the REW .txt file into my MiniDSP balanced 2x4. Each time I try I get this message: Your biquad in your input file is not correctly formatted.

I'm using the 2waySubAdv plug in.

Any thoughts?

PS here is what it looks like after playing with the delay on the Dayton v Infinities. I'm POSITIVE I can eliminate that 80hz one with either EQ, or distances (MiniDSP wont let you go higher than 7.5MS delay)

Now keep in mind this is without ANY XT32, or MiniDSP filters to help which should help make a difference too...


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post #93 of 208 Old 04-24-2017, 12:15 PM
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Try changing the delay in the AVR to get rid of that 80hz dip. I'm assuming that it is at the crossover point?
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post #94 of 208 Old 04-24-2017, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
Try changing the delay in the AVR to get rid of that 80hz dip. I'm assuming that it is at the crossover point?
Nope.... Room mode...

Currently the fronts are set at 250, and the LFE of the sub is also 250. The fronts are actually OFF in that measurement.

I am moving from letting XT32 handle BOTH subs, so using a MiniDSP to EQ the two together (and apply EQ), then let XT32 see it as a single sub and set distances, etc....

Then once THAT is done, I will adjust the distances to try and see what I can do about it, if anything...

But I'm stuck right now since my REW filters wont load into the MiniDSP. So until I get that done, I can't redo XT32 and anything else I want to do.

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post #95 of 208 Old 04-24-2017, 01:44 PM
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Try flipping the phase 180 degrees

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post #96 of 208 Old 04-24-2017, 02:38 PM
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Got it working.... got some measurements.... not sure if I helped or hurt......

Will post them later tonight (still feel like junk and have like 60 diff measurements).

My thinking is that I may have actually done it backwards.

Here is my potential revised order:

1. Connect both subs to Sub 1 & Sub 2 respectively
2. Run XT32
3. Zero out the distance settings in XT32
4. Use MiniDSP to set distances by measuring via increments in WinISD
5. Generate MiniDSP Filters
6. Apply MiniDSP Filters
7. Apply house curves

I will post my graphs tonight and see....

I may also just need to find a way to get Matt and Mike down to help me out one day lol.....

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post #97 of 208 Old 04-24-2017, 03:17 PM
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Hey Dan I just received my mini dsp 2/4 balanced to build something like you did in your other thread. So I'll have to see how that system works compared to the inukes dsp. Keep at it the response will get better. I found that once the delays are set right the room sounds a lot different in a good way just like beastaudio was saying. It takes time and that's free at least you don't have to pay a company to come in and do it for you. Post those measurements tonight and if they need to be adjusted a little. You so close
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post #98 of 208 Old 04-24-2017, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Hey Dan I just received my mini dsp 2/4 balanced to build something like you did in your other thread. So I'll have to see how that system works compared to the inukes dsp. Keep at it the response will get better. I found that once the delays are set right the room sounds a lot different in a good way just like beastaudio was saying. It takes time and that's free at least you don't have to pay a company to come in and do it for you. Post those measurements tonight and if they need to be adjusted a little. You so close
I'm sure it's a combo or frustration and being sick and preparing for a medical test tomorrow so I can eat food today while watching 2 girls....

When my wife comes home I'm ninjaing out to the bedroom for the night.
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post #99 of 208 Old 04-24-2017, 04:22 PM
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Hey Dan a few thoughts. First, high Q nulls can be a resonance. If moving speakers and mic never change it much, it's likely a resonance. None the less 80hz nulls are frequently a result of a axial length mode. Lf damping on front and rear walls and all corners is a more likely fix than dsp. I have the same null, no amount of moving subs or tweaking delay will ever fix it.

I typically feel it's best to run audyssey after I've dialed in the subs.

Dialing in sub distance can be done objectively but because it's sub 200hz it's steadystate and ok to tweak around it. You do this by using a loopback timing reference and aligning the impulse of the subs. Then tweak a little around that value. Supposedly it can be done via an acoustic timing reference and USB mic but I never got it working. The timing reference is too high in frequency. I gave up but one way to make it work might be to hook the subs to the left channel instead of LFE. Then use the right channel as the timing reference and left channel measurement. This gets an accurate timing reference without mixing the main speakers into the impulse for the subs. I haven't tried this as it's just as easy for me to do the loopback.

After I have distance right and major modes eqed out I then run audyssey. Frees up those Taps for the nasty garbage in the upper bass range. If you have just two subs, it should then refine the distances from what should already be right. You can of course test before and after. I've had audyssey make things worse with totally wonky distance measurements and filters.


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post #100 of 208 Old 04-25-2017, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Hey Dan I just received my mini dsp 2/4 balanced to build something like you did in your other thread. So I'll have to see how that system works compared to the inukes dsp. Keep at it the response will get better. I found that once the delays are set right the room sounds a lot different in a good way just like beastaudio was saying. It takes time and that's free at least you don't have to pay a company to come in and do it for you. Post those measurements tonight and if they need to be adjusted a little. You so close
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
Hey Dan a few thoughts. First, high Q nulls can be a resonance. If moving speakers and mic never change it much, it's likely a resonance. None the less 80hz nulls are frequently a result of a axial length mode. Lf damping on front and rear walls and all corners is a more likely fix than dsp. I have the same null, no amount of moving subs or tweaking delay will ever fix it.

I typically feel it's best to run audyssey after I've dialed in the subs.

Dialing in sub distance can be done objectively but because it's sub 200hz it's steadystate and ok to tweak around it. You do this by using a loopback timing reference and aligning the impulse of the subs. Then tweak a little around that value. Supposedly it can be done via an acoustic timing reference and USB mic but I never got it working. The timing reference is too high in frequency. I gave up but one way to make it work might be to hook the subs to the left channel instead of LFE. Then use the right channel as the timing reference and left channel measurement. This gets an accurate timing reference without mixing the main speakers into the impulse for the subs. I haven't tried this as it's just as easy for me to do the loopback.

After I have distance right and major modes eqed out I then run audyssey. Frees up those Taps for the nasty garbage in the upper bass range. If you have just two subs, it should then refine the distances from what should already be right. You can of course test before and after. I've had audyssey make things worse with totally wonky distance measurements and filters.


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In order to not sully Matts thread up more, I'm moving discussion on my specific scenario to my MiniDSP thread as thats where it truly belongs.

I've updated that thread with the info posted yesterday here and the new graphs.

I still think I need run each sub off its own independent channel as if I can increase the delay individually on the dayton I think I can get that 80hz to look a lot better without adding 12db of boost....

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post #101 of 208 Old 11-19-2017, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

You should run room correction after you have finished integrated the subs together using the external DSP and before you integrate them with the main speakers. Often the room correction does not get the subwoofer distance setting perfectly aligned with the mains and it will mess up any of those settings if you adjusted them before running it.

It is your choice if you want to EQ the subs before or after running room correction. If you EQ before you may have to go back in and make further adjustments after room correction runs to refine the response to taste as Audessey will try to adjust your EQ'ed response to match its target curve.
FANTASTIC guide... Thanks so much.

This is what I have been trying to find.

So is this correct??
  1. REW getting subs playing together nicely.
  2. Audyssey room correction.
  3. REW integration of subs and mains

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post #102 of 208 Old 11-19-2017, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Your are welcome.

Yep, that's the basic order of those steps.
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post #103 of 208 Old 11-20-2017, 01:52 PM
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MAINS: KRIX NEUPHONIX CENTRE: KRIX EPICENTRIX SURROUNDS: KRIX ACOUSTIX REAR SURROUNDS: KRIX KDX
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post #104 of 208 Old 11-21-2017, 12:54 AM
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how come, i have single rca out from avr to inuke, avr is set to single sub, inuke is set to Bi-Amp1, but when I play a sweep in REW set to left or right only, it comes from both subs?

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have just tried every setting, dual mono, stereo, bi-amp1, bi-amp2, single rca, split rca, dual rca with 2 subs in avr.
Rew will not sweep the subs seperately.
arggh this is frustrating, just when i thought i had it worked out.

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post #106 of 208 Old 11-21-2017, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STAIN0 View Post
have just tried every setting, dual mono, stereo, bi-amp1, bi-amp2, single rca, split rca, dual rca with 2 subs in avr.
Rew will not sweep the subs seperately.
arggh this is frustrating, just when i thought i had it worked out.
LFE is mono (it doesn't have different channels) and sent through speaker #4 in Preferences in REW. Just unplug the subs you don't want to measure.
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post #107 of 208 Old 11-21-2017, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
LFE is mono (it doesn't have different channels) and sent through speaker #4 in Preferences in REW. Just unplug the subs you don't want to measure.
Apparently I was using the incorrect driver, I need to install the ASIO4ALL software and set the ASIO driver for HDMI.
Will try when i get home.

So, Display Audio Output 1 4 is subs? and I must keep unplugging the one I dont want?
I think I got it now

Was worried my Inuke was stuffed haha.

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post #108 of 208 Old 11-21-2017, 01:36 PM
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Apparently I was using the incorrect driver, I need to install the ASIO4ALL software and set the ASIO driver for HDMI.
Will try when i get home.

Quoting from a REW 101 guide


Does that include subs? or just speakers?
Your name isn't Benji is it?
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post #109 of 208 Old 11-21-2017, 01:43 PM
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Your name isn't Benji is it?
Your's isnt Steven is it?

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post #110 of 208 Old 11-21-2017, 01:59 PM
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Your's isnt Steven is it?
Yea.. .. small world!
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post #111 of 208 Old 11-21-2017, 06:21 PM
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Looks at my sig for the AustinJerry guide. It helps with getting Rew set up properly. This awesome guide is also in my sig. ;-)

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post #112 of 208 Old 11-26-2017, 01:20 PM
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Still trying to work my way through this.
I do thank the people who have tried to help me so far
but I am currently stuck here.
For the life of me, I cannot get the low end to be constructive.
I have ran delays (in my AVR) for the sub from 0m up to 6m. seems to only make a difference in the 60-120hz region.

Any advice greatly appreciated



Just out of curiosity I ran it with centre channel and subs. Looks like with a bit of delay it will play nicely.


*Edit...
Speaker crossovers are all 80hz, Sub LPF 120hz.
Smoothed just for clarity.

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MAINS: KRIX NEUPHONIX CENTRE: KRIX EPICENTRIX SURROUNDS: KRIX ACOUSTIX REAR SURROUNDS: KRIX KDX
SUBS: DUAL MINIMARTY UM22-18'S

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post #113 of 208 Old 11-26-2017, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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It seems like the measurements for the subs by themselves are taken at a higher level then those with both the speakers and subs playing back together. Are you changing any settings in rew or on the AVR when you switch between those measurements?

Maybe try physically disconnecting the speakers when running the sweep you would normally do for both speakers/subs together to measure the subs by themselves, then connect the speakers and disconnect the subs (or turn off sub amp) and finally run both together.
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post #114 of 208 Old 11-26-2017, 02:58 PM
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thanks mtg90, nah i did not change any settings between any sweeps.
cdy2179 suggested my subs were running 15db or so hot, so i turned the gain down and started again from scratch.

when measuring the subs i turn the power amp off for speakers, when measuring speakers i turn the inuke off for the subs.

also pointed out by cdy2179 was the crossover point was not in the right spot (~80hz)

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Could it have something to do with where the mains pick up again (between 10-55hz) below their crossover? (80hz)
Do i need to get rid of that?

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post #116 of 208 Old 11-26-2017, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STAIN0 View Post
Still trying to work my way through this.
I do thank the people who have tried to help me so far
but I am currently stuck here.
For the life of me, I cannot get the low end to be constructive.
I have ran delays (in my AVR) for the sub from 0m up to 6m. seems to only make a difference in the 60-120hz region.

Any advice greatly appreciated




Just out of curiosity I ran it with centre channel and subs. Looks like with a bit of delay it will play nicely.



*Edit...
Speaker crossovers are all 80hz, Sub LPF 120hz.
Smoothed just for clarity.

Are you using an iNuke DSP? There are separate delay controls for each channel on the Configuration tab.
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post #117 of 208 Old 11-26-2017, 04:28 PM
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Are you using an iNuke DSP? There are separate delay controls for each channel on the Configuration tab.
nah, past that point now.
Am using the avr's delay now.

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post #118 of 208 Old 11-26-2017, 05:09 PM
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Using sub delay in AVR (from 0 to 6m in 100mm increments), this is the best I have been able to get it.



From just below the mains actual crossover (80hz) it is mostly constructive. but below 70hz is all destructive.

My amateur opinion is i need to control my mains with better placement and/or room treatment.
Placement is pretty much out of the question though.

|JVC X5000 |OPPO UDP-203 |DENON X4400 |EMOTIVA XPA-5 |NVIDIA SHIELD TV |XBOX ONE S |INUKE NU6000DSP
MAINS: KRIX NEUPHONIX CENTRE: KRIX EPICENTRIX SURROUNDS: KRIX ACOUSTIX REAR SURROUNDS: KRIX KDX
SUBS: DUAL MINIMARTY UM22-18'S
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post #119 of 208 Old 11-27-2017, 02:24 PM
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I'm kind of shocked how poorly the Denon is shaping the crossover on your mains. Looks nothing like thecorrect correct slope of an 80Hz crossover? Do you still have some Audyssey processing enabled? I ask because why would there be a +60dB level for 40Hz with a 80Hz crossover?


All that extra energy (and whatever Audyssey sauce has been added) can certainly impact the combined response with the subs.
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post #120 of 208 Old 11-27-2017, 02:37 PM
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A few suggestions:


1. That does not look like destructive interference below 70 Hz, it looks like a level change. (Look at 20 Hz - your mains have essentially no output so how could they manage to suck so much energy out of the room?). Though it sounds like you are measuring in a way that prevents this, odd things like this can happen if you send the "same" signal to your mains and your subs. This is because your sub channel is actually the sum of the left and right before filtering...


2. Its sometimes easier to use the impulse response to evaluate cancellation / time issues. This can be done for individual subs to get good time alignment and check polarity. Just take a measurement for each sub up to around 100 Hz and look at the impulse response. Add delay to the fastest channels so the peak appears at the same time for each sub, and invert the polarity of any subs whos peak is negative. This can be done to some extent for the mains as well but it's harder to match the shape of the impulse with a sub in this way - see next tip for another method:


3. Another useful tool is the group delay plot. You can take your existing full range (mains+subs) response and look at the group delay. It will be noisy but should be somewhat even across the frequency range. If your sub channel is mis-matched in time to the mains then you will see a step in this graph around your crossover frequency. The nice thing here is you can measure the size of the step and adjust your delay by that much and you should be in good shape.


feel free to PM me your measurements and I can have a look in REW if you are not clear on the above.
Ed
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