mtg90??s multiple subwoofers + mains integration How To thread - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 208 Old 11-27-2017, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benderet View Post
A few suggestions:


1. That does not look like destructive interference below 70 Hz, it looks like a level change. (Look at 20 Hz - your mains have essentially no output so how could they manage to suck so much energy out of the room?). Though it sounds like you are measuring in a way that prevents this, odd things like this can happen if you send the "same" signal to your mains and your subs. This is because your sub channel is actually the sum of the left and right before filtering...


2. Its sometimes easier to use the impulse response to evaluate cancellation / time issues. This can be done for individual subs to get good time alignment and check polarity. Just take a measurement for each sub up to around 100 Hz and look at the impulse response. Add delay to the fastest channels so the peak appears at the same time for each sub, and invert the polarity of any subs whos peak is negative. This can be done to some extent for the mains as well but it's harder to match the shape of the impulse with a sub in this way - see next tip for another method:


3. Another useful tool is the group delay plot. You can take your existing full range (mains+subs) response and look at the group delay. It will be noisy but should be somewhat even across the frequency range. If your sub channel is mis-matched in time to the mains then you will see a step in this graph around your crossover frequency. The nice thing here is you can measure the size of the step and adjust your delay by that much and you should be in good shape.


feel free to PM me your measurements and I can have a look in REW if you are not clear on the above.
Ed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post
I'm kind of shocked how poorly the Denon is shaping the crossover on your mains. Looks nothing like thecorrect correct slope of an 80Hz crossover? Do you still have some Audyssey processing enabled? I ask because why would there be a +60dB level for 40Hz with a 80Hz crossover?


All that extra energy (and whatever Audyssey sauce has been added) can certainly impact the combined response with the subs.
Um, now you mention it, I have a sneaking suspicion I did not run Audyssey again after aligning the subs.

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post #122 of 208 Old 11-28-2017, 12:39 PM
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To clarify, I was meaning to DISABLE all Audyssey processing while working through these steps.
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post #123 of 208 Old 11-28-2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post
To clarify, I was meaning to DISABLE all Audyssey processing while working through these steps.
and i'm talking about step 8.
But I am sure I did not have any Audyssey enabled during the other steps. I will triple check when I get a minute.
Looking at fan mods for my inuke to quieten it down before i go through this again now.

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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
Step #8 Integration with mains

Readjust your subwoofer’s xover back down to where you had it. Turn on the amps for your mains or plug them back in. Now is the time to rerun your processor’s room correction if applicable.

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post #124 of 208 Old 11-28-2017, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by STAIN0 View Post
Could it have something to do with where the mains pick up again (between 10-55hz) below their crossover? (80hz)
Do i need to get rid of that?
I should have been more clear and had this quote with my first response.


Having that much energy coming from the mains at 40Hz will certainly have an impact on the combined (Mains + Sub) frequency response.


The only explanation I can see for that occurring would be either you have LFE + Main set in the BASS parameter of the Speaker Settings OR maybe Audyssey still enabled.
You wouldn't be using the MultiEQ Editor app by chance?
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post #125 of 208 Old 11-28-2017, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post
I should have been more clear and had this quote with my first response.


Having that much energy coming from the mains at 40Hz will certainly have an impact on the combined (Mains + Sub) frequency response.


The only explanation I can see for that occurring would be either you have LFE + Main set in the BASS parameter of the Speaker Settings OR maybe Audyssey still enabled.
You wouldn't be using the MultiEQ Editor app by chance?
I'm 99% sure bass is set to LFE and mains Small, but always question myself when asked the question haha. Will gladly go through the process of elimination and triple check again when I get home.

Not sure what MultiEQ Editor app is, so I'm gunna say no?

Thanks again for your replies

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post #126 of 208 Old 11-29-2017, 01:25 PM
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Make sure to try reversing phase in your Inuke. My cheap Pioneer receiver set the SUB distance correctly, but failed to compensate for the Inuke polarity issue.
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post #127 of 208 Old 12-11-2017, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K9woofer View Post
the Inuke polarity issue.
Any more info on this?

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post #128 of 208 Old 12-12-2017, 03:34 AM
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Question

Just curious, why cant we boost with a bit of gain, then pull it back to the target with eq?


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post #129 of 208 Old 12-12-2017, 09:28 PM
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First of all thanks @mtg90 for posting this information! I just got a pair of HTM10 built and they are harder to give a quick judgement of because you can't just run them full range and crank some music, they absolutely require a sub. I pulled my mains and hooked these up and ran audyssey and it was okay but figured I haven't tried this full method yet so I did with the HTMs. This should be a sticky as much as subs are a topic on this forum. I didn't do a before graph because the HTM were just added but prior to this (there is a graph that approximates this though by turning off the delays that were added and it's not subtle) I was running some LT on the subs, they are all sealed, one HS24 front and center and two 15" sealed that flank the couch on the walls to the side. This is the result, no gain turned up, no LT on, no house curve, nothing but audyssey run and went fairly quickly through the steps. The first sub only integration resulted in setting delay of 3.4ms or about 1.168m which is about right as the crow flies. So here is the final result:



Here is before and after the final distance setting in the receiver, reduced the distance by 2.8'. This is the amazing part of this process when you see that huge null just go away. The bumps between about 60 and 85 are modes or something because they just shift up and down but don't improve.



Going back in time here is the subs only pre-audyssey, purple is before, blue is after 3.4ms delay. Played with different delays but this yielded overall flattest and also most lf bass. Again, amazing difference and really the null around 68hz is the only thing here that really stands out. Awesome.



I didn't do a pre tweaking measurement because the system was not set up at all, but this is probably the most fair way to do it, red line is audyssey on, but all gain removed in the minidsp and also the distance set back to how audyssey had it, so this is what you would get (and what my old measurements looked like) if you just run audyssey and hope for the best. The null around 40 is mostly resolved and overall a good improvement. I'm sure this could get better with some placement tweaks but this is way better than what it was and for a quick calibration I'm thrilled.

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post #130 of 208 Old 12-13-2017, 05:44 AM
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I don't see the images.
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post #131 of 208 Old 12-13-2017, 06:47 AM
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I don't see the images.

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post #132 of 208 Old 12-13-2017, 06:59 AM
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I don't see the images.
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I don't see the images.
Bwa thanks it's dropbox changing things again apparently, how now?
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post #133 of 208 Old 12-13-2017, 02:04 PM
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Bwa thanks it's dropbox changing things again apparently, how now?
If they are on your PC, drag and drop files right below where I am basically type this response where it says "DRAG FILES HERE TO ATTACH!"

If you want us to not have to click on the thumbnail, click the link to the pic that propagates after you drag and drop. it opens the pic in a new window with a web address, copy that and then add the photo just like you used to with your dropbox link. Do that for both pics.

It's a little tedious the first few times but then you can fly through the process, and never have to worry about someone like dropbox or PHOTOBUCKET completely ruining half the thread on AVS.

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post #134 of 208 Old 12-14-2017, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by STAIN0 View Post
Any more info on this?
The inputs are reverse polarity.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...p-rundown.html
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post #135 of 208 Old 12-20-2017, 06:43 PM
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For some reason, when I try to add delay to my subs using the inuke6000dsp, nothing happens. Even if I add 100 feet of delay, nothing changes. I am unable to perfectly time-align my subs. Anyone else have this problem?

Could it be because my subs are only about 6 feet apart in a smallish room?
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post #136 of 208 Old 12-20-2017, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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How are they connected? They aren't on the same amp channel are they?
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post #137 of 208 Old 12-20-2017, 10:54 PM
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No, they are each wired to separate channels of the amp. I have a yamaha avr (A760). Maybe it has something to do with the connection between it and the inuke?
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post #138 of 208 Old 12-21-2017, 07:04 AM
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I’m not an inuke expert but doesn’t it have several profiles available? If so check that you have the right one active if that makes sense.


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post #139 of 208 Old 12-21-2017, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IAH View Post
For some reason, when I try to add delay to my subs using the inuke6000dsp, nothing happens. Even if I add 100 feet of delay, nothing changes. I am unable to perfectly time-align my subs. Anyone else have this problem?

Could it be because my subs are only about 6 feet apart in a smallish room?
Are you hitting the enter button after you add the delay to submit the entry?
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post #140 of 208 Old 12-21-2017, 09:01 AM
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I double-checked the file, and I made sure to hit "enter" (I even stored it after applying it). Nothing. It's weird.
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post #141 of 208 Old 02-12-2018, 12:14 PM
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Question Re: XT32 with 2 Sub Outs

If I use an inuke dsp to apply delay to one of my two subs, and then run Audyssey XT32, and XT32 sets my sub distances differently, should I then readjust the sub distances to be equal when doing the "sub distance tweak", since I have already time aligned them using the inuke?
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post #142 of 208 Old 02-12-2018, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Use only one subwoofer output on the AVR when setting up the subwoofer delays manually, prevents what you are running into where Audyssey tries to counteract the delays you have already set in the inuke with the multiple subwoofer outs. This way you adjust the subwoofer system as a whole where it crosses to the main speakers using only the single subwoofer distance/delay setting in the AVR after running Audyssey.

Edit, you can use both sub outs on the AVR if you manually set both to the same distance but you have to adjust both together when making changes. It's just more work/less foolproof.
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post #143 of 208 Old 02-12-2018, 06:32 PM
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Makes sense. Thank you.
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post #144 of 208 Old 02-13-2018, 10:20 AM
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One more question:

For my setup - Fusion8's and 2 SI HT18's sealed 4cft - it seems that I get the smoothest response with a 110hz crossover. Does this seem odd? as I believe it is recommended to cross them at 80hz. Could it be my room that causes this outcome? Or, is this no big deal? I'm sorry for no graphs as they were accidentally deleted, when my computer froze and had to restart.

Thanks
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post #145 of 208 Old 02-13-2018, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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The ideal crossover point is usually highly room and placement dependent, it's nothing to be worried about if an 80hz crossover isn't what works for you as long as you find a frequency that does look good.
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post #146 of 208 Old 02-13-2018, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IAH View Post
One more question:

For my setup - Fusion8's and 2 SI HT18's sealed 4cft - it seems that I get the smoothest response with a 110hz crossover. Does this seem odd? as I believe it is recommended to cross them at 80hz. Could it be my room that causes this outcome? Or, is this no big deal? I'm sorry for no graphs as they were accidentally deleted, when my computer froze and had to restart.

Thanks
You should always let the room dictate where your XO should be. While 80hz is a good starting point, you have to just let your room sometimes tell you otherwise. Follow what measures (and sounds of course) best. 110hz is not too high IMO... with fusion 8's especially, being a smaller woofer than some of the other DIYSG variants.

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post #147 of 208 Old 02-13-2018, 05:55 PM
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That's kind of what I thought, but wasn't 100% sure! Thank you both.
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post #148 of 208 Old 03-23-2018, 01:32 PM
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I’m gonna try this integration method soon. Just a couple questions for those who have done this already. I’m trying to figure out proper settings before I start the integration measurements.

1, AVR sub level
what should the avr subwoofer levels be set at prior to beginning the measuring? The guide says start with a clean slate. No dsp or anything. So does that mean set at 0 in the AVR?
2, AVR subwoofer distance
another thought I’ve had is to enter the delay into the inukes that Audyssey has determined with auto cal. So if sub 1 is 10.2’ and sub 2 is 5.5’, set that into the respective inuke channels as delay to the proper ms equivalent. Then set the avr distance to 0.
Then measure from there and follow the guide verbatim. Any other ideas I’m missing?
I’m just trying to figure out how to go about this.
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post #149 of 208 Old 03-23-2018, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
I’m gonna try this integration method soon. Just a couple questions for those who have done this already. I’m trying to figure out proper settings before I start the integration measurements.

1, AVR sub level
what should the avr subwoofer levels be set at prior to beginning the measuring? The guide says start with a clean slate. No dsp or anything. So does that mean set at 0 in the AVR?
2, AVR subwoofer distance
another thought I’ve had is to enter the delay into the inukes that Audyssey has determined with auto cal. So if sub 1 is 10.2’ and sub 2 is 5.5’, set that into the respective inuke channels as delay to the proper ms equivalent. Then set the avr distance to 0.
Then measure from there and follow the guide verbatim. Any other ideas I’m missing?
I’m just trying to figure out how to go about this.
1. If in the past autocal has set a number towards the middle you are likely fine to leave it there. You could set it to zero, and then when you integrate all the subs together shoot for roughly 73-75db --combined-- and then it should autocal to roughly zero. That way you have 11db either way to be in range. Of course after autocal you can adjust it hotter as you please, knowing you likely want to use a lot more than autocal sets.

2. You should only use one sub input as mtg90 suggests in a post just up above. The current sub distance in the avr does not matter at all as your goal is to measure exactly the distance of each sub from the mlp. Furthest sub is zero delay in dsp, 2nd furthest is distance closer than the furthest and so forth, with some minor tweaking. The autocal will give you an initial sub distance setting but thats where the magic really comes in...mtg90s method of measuring and setting the overall sub distance based upon highest output at the crossover and best response averaged across your lps. Its a brillant strategy imo, the very best advice in avsforum about subs.

What I and i think many did not understand is the flattest response when integrating subs through delay IS NOT ideal. It looks good in a graph but a) loses a lot of tactile response and b) actually is far more difficult to eq across multiple positions than doing it mtgs way. When i followed this advice for my 2 theaters I suddenly had WAY more tactile and even better...much less variation in the response when using eq.

I would guess this advice is worth $1000+ to someone having a HT pro do the calibration. Matt is brilliant and I couldnt be happier that he is so charitable as to explain this to us.

Even better he designed our magnificent diysg speakers....yes I am a big mtg90 fan!
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post #150 of 208 Old 03-23-2018, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
2. You should only use one sub input as mtg90 suggests in a post just up above. The current sub distance in the avr does not matter at all as your goal is to measure exactly the distance of each sub from the mlp. Closest sub is zero delay in dsp
Using this technique, the most distant sub gets a delay of zero. One adds delay to closer subs to equalize the time of arrival of the sound from those more distant. The closer the sub to the MLP, the more delay is added.
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