mtg90â??s multiple subwoofers + mains integration How To thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 208 Old 01-11-2019, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I would leave the polarity of the right subwoofer inverted if it gives you the better result. Are they two different makes of subwoofers?
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post #182 of 208 Old 01-11-2019, 06:16 PM
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I would leave the polarity of the right subwoofer inverted if it gives you the better result. Are they two different makes of subwoofers?
The two subs are SVS SB12-NSD ( sealed subs). Physically the only difference is that one is finished in wood and the other has the Piano black finish. However, the location of each sub is different, since they are located almost across from each other on opposite walls. The woofer on each sub is facing the back of the room.

After my last post, I remeasured both at the central location and the MLP and looked at the impulse graphs as overlays. I noticed that although the two were now in phase (with the right sub polarity inverted), the impulse graph of the left sub came on slightly earlier. So I added a little delay at a time and remeasured, and now with a 1.12ms Delay of the Left sub, the initial peak in the impulse lined up better. Assuming that this is indicative of the time alignment, I remeasured and the combined graph seems to have improved both at the MLP and the Central position.

Now I will use these settings (Right Sub polarity inverted, and Left sub Delay at 1.12) to measure at the other seats of the front and back rows to see what it looks like there. If all goes well, I will then run the MCACC PRO Calibration of the AVR, and then begin to align the subs and mains.

*** Question for those who saw the graphs on my previous post, is the peak around 60hz area something that I should try to tame with EQ first? or should I just let the Auto EQ deal with it?
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post #183 of 208 Old 01-21-2019, 09:05 PM
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Hello Thank you very much for the thread first off.

I just got my MiniDSP 2X4HD about two weeks ago. I’m trying to learn how to use I have read a lot of post and seen a few videos but it still has been very confusing I have had a friend that is helping me out. I’m not sure I’m doing this right cause I don’t seem to be able to my graph to look right.

Here is some info on my equipment.
My AVR is a Marantz SR6012. I do have the AVR set to 250hz on the crossover.

My subs are 2 Eminence LAB 12 DIY built in two ported enclosures that is tuned to 22hz one of them is ran off a Crown RMX 850 I had to add a Butterworth 12db /oct high pass filter to this one. The the other is powered by a SPA250 plate amp. I have a rear sub that is Martin Logan grotto 10 and I have an earthquake 10 next to the main LP. All of the cross overs have been set as high as they will go.

The LF sub is 11.25’ from the main LP and the RF is 10.5’ The right rear is 7.75’ from LP and the forth is 5.5’.

I only have one row of seating with two seats.


I was told to gain match these by place each sub in the same location and measuring the SLP from a test tone.

The I measured my LF with it being the farthest from the main LP and then the RF. Then together and then add delay to the RF to remove the nulls. I have never been really able to remove all the nulls.

From what I have above I’m I starting out correctly?
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post #184 of 208 Old 01-21-2019, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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It seems like you are starting out correctly. Being that all the subwoofers use different amplifiers you may find that the phase setting or polarity of the amplifiers are different.

It may be best to stick two subwoofers next to each other with the mic positioned a couple feet in front of them. Do this for the three different pairs of subwoofers (Lab12a + Lab12b, Lab12a + ML10, Lab12a + EQ10). Measure one, then the other, then both together. If everything is adjusted correctly on the amplifiers and you should see decent net gains across the board up to +6dB if the individual response of each subwoofer was at the same level. If for any of these pairing you see the response drop when both play at the same time you will need to adjust the phase or polarity until you see a gain in output across the board. You may even need to apply a bit of delay too one or more of the subwoofers so that all are starting out time/phase aligned.

Once that is done you can put the subwoofers back in their normal positions and start the adjustment of delay to compensate for differing positions in the room relative to the MLP.

It should also be noted that you may still end up with sharp nulls caused by boundary interactions which might not be removed when the subwoofers are aligned due to the nature of the phase reversals in those sharp dips or calculations. The best bet is to ignore them and try and get the rest of the response summing as well as possible. Ideally with each successive subwoofer aligned and added the response should keep getting smoother.
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post #185 of 208 Old 01-21-2019, 10:46 PM
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Thanks for the input.
Here is what I got when I put each sub in the same spot and made sure they had the same dB output. Then put them back in there spots and measured LF and then RF and then both and started to add timing how bad does this look??
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post #186 of 208 Old 01-22-2019, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
It seems like you are starting out correctly. Being that all the subwoofers use different amplifiers you may find that the phase setting or polarity of the amplifiers are different.

It may be best to stick two subwoofers next to each other with the mic positioned a couple feet in front of them. Do this for the three different pairs of subwoofers (Lab12a + Lab12b, Lab12a + ML10, Lab12a + EQ10). Measure one, then the other, then both together. If everything is adjusted correctly on the amplifiers and you should see decent net gains across the board up to +6dB if the individual response of each subwoofer was at the same level. If for any of these pairing you see the response drop when both play at the same time you will need to adjust the phase or polarity until you see a gain in output across the board. You may even need to apply a bit of delay too one or more of the subwoofers so that all are starting out time/phase aligned.

Once that is done you can put the subwoofers back in their normal positions and start the adjustment of delay to compensate for differing positions in the room relative to the MLP.

It should also be noted that you may still end up with sharp nulls caused by boundary interactions which might not be removed when the subwoofers are aligned due to the nature of the phase reversals in those sharp dips or calculations. The best bet is to ignore them and try and get the rest of the response summing as well as possible. Ideally with each successive subwoofer aligned and added the response should keep getting smoother.
Thank you for your input I fell like I'm going crazy....

A few more questions come you don't mind.
You said to measure the subs in groups of Lab12a + Lab12b, Lab12a + ML10, Lab12a + EQ10 is this after they have been gain matched or I'm I gain matching here also?

You mentioned to adjust the phase or polarity I very new at this how do I do this?
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post #187 of 208 Old 01-22-2019, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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You measure those pairs while sitting next to each other after you have matched the individual SPL/gain the best you can.

The idea here to make sure all your subwoofers are playing nice with each other before they get positioned around the room and you are trying to adjust delays to account for distance offsets. You don't have to do it in pairs either, you can if you wanted to move all 4 subs next to each other in an arc with the mic positioned about 3-4' in front of all the subs and check each subwoofer's individual output. Then turn on two sub together and measure, then three and measure finally then all four and measure. You should see an SPL increase across the board with each subwoofer added. If SPL does not increase or goes down when two or more subwoofers are running together then one or more of the subwoofers are out of phase. The subwoofer amplifiers should have an phase or polarity adjustment option. You will have to determine which setting gives you the greatest increase in output. It will be easiest to do this adding one at a time, so start with sub 1+2 and make sure then play well together then move onto subs 1+2+3, then subs 1+2+3+4.

If the entire frequency range does not increase in output you will want to use whichever phase/polarity setting gives you an increase in output at the lowest frequencies <40hz. Then try to use a bit of delay on one sub or the other in order to compensate for the different group delay/phase response. It should be clear which requires delay as adding to the correct sub will cause more of the frequency range (starting from the low end) to move into positive output, adding delay to the wrong to the wrong subwoofer will further reduce output. When you have two subwoofers matched and move onto the third remember that if you have to add delay you will have to add it either to the third sub or an equal amount to the two others otherwise you will move one of those two out of alignment with the other. Same goes for the first three subs when adding the fourth sub. Note that this only applies with this initial setup to check that all the subs are playing nice with each other, you do not do this when accounting for position offsets in the main setup.

When you are sure all the subwoofers are playing nice with each other you can move them back into their respective positions in the room and begin the normal setup of trying to account for distance offsets. If you don't first check that all the subwoofers play nice with each other at the beginning you will have no idea if you are dealing with room/delay issues during the integration or the subwoofers themselves fighting with each other.
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Last edited by mtg90; 01-22-2019 at 10:31 AM.
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post #188 of 208 Old 01-23-2019, 09:38 PM
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I cant send this in a PM don't have enough post.
Hello! Thanks for the guidance. Made it much easier to complete the measurements. Stuck on one set, (12a + EQ10). Have some conflict and wanted to ask what delay you thought I should use? First picture is of a 4ms delay, and I see an issue at 31hz to 36hz and roll off at 125hz. 2nd pic is a 5ms delay and I see an issue at 32hz to 35hz with roll off at 108hz. Last pic is 6ms delay with a roll off at 95hz. In your thread you mentioned to add delay equal to the difference in measurements of 2 sets of speakers. Is there a formula in distance of ms = to delay? Thank you again for your help, much appreciated! I have other pictures of the rest of the measurements if you wish to see them.
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post #189 of 208 Old 01-24-2019, 12:16 PM
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I cant send this in a PM don't have enough post.
Hello! Thanks for the guidance. Made it much easier to complete the measurements. Stuck on one set, (12a + EQ10). Have some conflict and wanted to ask what delay you thought I should use? First picture is of a 4ms delay, and I see an issue at 31hz to 36hz and roll off at 125hz. 2nd pic is a 5ms delay and I see an issue at 32hz to 35hz with roll off at 108hz. Last pic is 6ms delay with a roll off at 95hz. In your thread you mentioned to add delay equal to the difference in measurements of 2 sets of speakers. Is there a formula in distance of ms = to delay? Thank you again for your help, much appreciated! I have other pictures of the rest of the measurements if you wish to see them.
1 ms of delay = about 1.13 ft.
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post #190 of 208 Old 01-24-2019, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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(distance offset in feet)/1.125 = ms of delay required.

But again this is just ballpark to where about it should be set, it's still best to take measurements around that range to determine the best setting.

Looking at your measurements I think the 4.5-5ms range looks best.
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post #191 of 208 Old 01-24-2019, 12:21 PM
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Which of the delays would you use. Or should I try to get it better?

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post #192 of 208 Old 01-24-2019, 12:29 PM
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I would record your settings, then play with sub placement and phase a little more, to see if you can lessen that dip at 49 Hz.

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post #193 of 208 Old 01-24-2019, 02:14 PM
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I would record your settings, then play with sub placement and phase a little more, to see if you can lessen that dip at 49 Hz.
With the help of mt90
these measurements are the subs next to one another just to get them close then going to move to there final placements. But wanted to find which one of the delays I should use before then. Every which one I use I have to add to the other subs before final placement.
Here is what I have so far:
FL sub and RF sub had a 2ms delay
FL sub and RR sub had a 0 delay
FL sub and LR sub is the last one I need to figure out.
Once I know which one to use I have add that to the ones I all ready have set up.
So if I use the 6ms delay on the RR sub I have to add 6ms to the FR sub so it would be 8ms but would I add 6ms to the LR sub?
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post #194 of 208 Old 01-24-2019, 08:36 PM
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Here is my final graph of subs, mains, then both. Green line is the combined result. I was able to get my front, rear, and nearfield subs to cooperate at the mlp, and Audyssey really set them pretty well to play nice together. I couldn’t really improve this.
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post #195 of 208 Old 01-25-2019, 12:50 AM
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Well looks like I have the subs all playing as one and the EQ is done. Before you move on to the main I need to run Audyssey this wont mess with what I just did with the subs?

Do you just one main speaker on this part of more and if more how set that in REW?
Do you set the speaker for large or small?
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post #196 of 208 Old 01-25-2019, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Gruelle View Post
Well looks like I have the subs all playing as one and the EQ is done. Before you move on to the main I need to run Audyssey this wont mess with what I just did with the subs?

Do you just one main speaker on this part of more and if more how set that in REW?
Do you set the speaker for large or small?
If you have a house curve like JK does in the previous post, audyssey will remove all of it and aim to get you to a dead-flat response across the bass spectrum. The best way to accomplish a house curve is to get your subs in-line with each other as described on this thread, and then apply ONLY the house curve or LT after audyssey has been run. You'll likely want to boost the sub level on your pre-pro too.
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post #197 of 208 Old 01-27-2019, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
Here is my final graph of subs, mains, then both. Green line is the combined result. I was able to get my front, rear, and nearfield subs to cooperate at the mlp, and Audyssey really set them pretty well to play nice together. I couldn’t really improve this.
Jared, you should post this graph in the gtg thread so people can see what they were hearing. When you showed it to me yesterday, I miscalculated. I see now that you have about a 23dB bass boost. A bit more than the Harman curve calls for. No wonder your room sounds different from mine at reference. You definitely don't need the bass EQ adjustments.
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post #198 of 208 Old 02-04-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
Setup example continued, Mains & Subwoofer integration.
... Anyway that concludes the integration setup for now, I hope it helps some of you get more out of your systems.
Matt,
Once again, thanks for putting this awesome walkthrough together. If you don't mind, I have a few questions about measurement locations and the adjuments you made.

I'll start by asking what you meant when you wrote this:
"I could probably move the summation point forward a little to get things closer at each row but first..."
Just wondering how you can move the summation point forward or backward? In other words, what do you do to achieve this?

Next, I'll ask about the measurement locations and strategy.
Were all of the measurements that you used to in order to determine delay amount just the ones taken from the central location between the two rows of seating? I know you took multiple measurements at different locations, but which did you use to make your adjustments?
Also, when you then said that you would now check the front row and then the back row to see how close the match your other measurements, were you using one location on each row or instead, did you take measurements at each seat of a row and then average that out, and used the average to represent the row?

The same questions apply to the integration with the Mains. Did you do the integration just using the central position between the rows or did you use an MLP for the integration?

I'm only working with 2 subs and in order to avoid a 15db difference between the two rows (in the lower frequencies when I had both subs upfront) I had to place one sub up front just to the right of the left Main speaker, and the second sub is almost mid-wall on the right side wall. So they are somewhat diagonal from each other.
With REW I'm limited to 30 measurements before it can't save any more measurements for that session. with two rows of seating and 5 total seats, I seem to be running out of space quickly when I start measuring each seat. However, the difference in delay to (time align the subs) at the Front Left seat vs the Rear Right seat seems to be about 5ms. So I'm torn with having to either split the difference or favor one seat. So I'm wondering how you decided on which location and settings to use in order to maximize the gains across all seats?
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post #199 of 208 Old 02-04-2019, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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If you have subs at the front and back of the room you can move the summation point forwards or backwards by adding or removing delay to either the front or rear subs (whichever is closer). More delay on rear subs = summation/integration point moved towards those subs. Less delay to rear subs and it moves closer to the center point between the front and rear subs. Similarly more or less delay added to the front subs would move it towards/away from those subs.

At the beginning I was measuring at a point centered between the front and rear rows for the main adjustments. I then moved to measuring at a central location of each the front and rear rows in order to fine tune the delay settings so each row measured as close to one another as possible. This did not end up too far off the settings at the central location. Finally since my subs are mostly symmetrically placed horizontally I didn't bother adjusting for left/right seats only a quick measurement at each seat for illustrative purposes.

Same measurement process when integrating the subs with the mains.

In your case it is all a matter of deciding if you want to try and balance the response across the seats or adjust for and favor a money seat.
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post #200 of 208 Old 02-05-2019, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
If you have subs at the front and back of the room you can move the summation point forwards or backwards by adding or removing delay to either the front or rear subs (whichever is closer). More delay on rear subs = summation/integration point moved towards those subs. Less delay to rear subs and it moves closer to the center point between the front and rear subs. Similarly more or less delay added to the front subs would move it towards/away from those subs.

At the beginning I was measuring at a point centered between the front and rear rows for the main adjustments. I then moved to measuring at a central location of each the front and rear rows in order to fine tune the delay settings so each row measured as close to one another as possible. This did not end up too far off the settings at the central location. Finally since my subs are mostly symmetrically placed horizontally I didn't bother adjusting for left/right seats only a quick measurement at each seat for illustrative purposes.

Same measurement process when integrating the subs with the mains.

In your case it is all a matter of deciding if you want to try and balance the response across the seats or adjust for and favor a money seat.
Ok great! Thanks again Matt,

One last question... At which location did you place the Audyssey mic for the AVR calibration?

Also, is this a good summary for my room?:
  1. Take a measurement at a Central location between the two rows.
  2. Take a measurement at the middle seat of the front row since there are only 3 seats there.
  3. Take a measurement between the 2 seats of the back row since there are only 2 seats in that row.
  4. Use the measurements of the Front Row and the Back Row as a reference to then Tweak the values of the Central location between the rows.
  5. Use the delay setting of the Central location as the Sub alignment delay value in the MiniDSP, then (assuming you say to use the Central location for this) run the AVR calibration from that Central location as well.
  6. after the AVR calibration, use only the measurements from Central location between the two rows to adjust the subwoofer distance settings in the AVR until you have constructive summation before, at, and after the Crossover point.

sorry for all the basic questions. I'm just trying to get it right so that I can start enjoying the setup more rather than stopping to take measurements every day.
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post #201 of 208 Old 02-05-2019, 01:20 PM
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Here is an update using the Central location for measurements.
Based on the results, it seems like Pioneer's MCACC Pro does a good job of integrating the subs with the Mains on its own. After settling on a delay of 4.02ms for the Sidewall Sub which was the closest to the Central measurement location, I added some PEQs via the MiniDSP to reduce some peaks prior to the Auto calibration. Then I ran the Pioneer auto-calibration using the same Central location between the rows.

Below are pics of the subs time aligned and the Impulse Responses compared before and after adding Delay to the Sidewall Sub. The other pics show the Subs again after calibration, the Mains alone after calibration and finally, the Mains + Subs calibrated and integrated by the MCACC Pro in my Pioneer SC-99.
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post #202 of 208 Old 03-15-2019, 07:01 PM
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When running four subs in each corner, do you keep the front two at 0 and the ones behind pointing at the front subs inverted at 180? Seems like I read this somewhere, but, then I've read to keep them all the same phase.

I usually get better (louder) bass inverting the rears.
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post #203 of 208 Old 03-15-2019, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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For most cases you want to leave all subs in the same polarity/phase.

Only time you would want to have subwoofers with opposite phase is if you were running a double bass array or using individual subwoofers to eliminate specific room anomalies (active bass trap).
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post #204 of 208 Old 06-12-2019, 07:06 PM
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@mtg90 Thank you so much for the info you posted here! It was a huge help in me getting a submaximus integrated with 2 VBSS and my new HT12s.

Green was the center with subs before adjustment and yellow is after. Amazing difference!

Some sub sweeps too thanks to your suggestions on how to get them aligned properly



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Equipment: Yamaha 3050, Oppo 103d, DIYSG HT12s (L,C,R), PSA mt 110s (SR,SL), 2 VBSS, Submaximus, 4 driver BOSS build, umik-1, Epson 3700
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post #205 of 208 Old 07-04-2019, 05:49 PM
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mtg90â??s multiple subwoofers + mains integration How To thread

I think I’m ready to do this walk through again. But this time, taking more measurements per step.
The other day, I thought I was hearing a little distortion, so I turned off my rear subs, and the nearfields. The most amazing thing happened, with only the front subs playing, it sounded twice as loud! Well, only from the back of my room, that happens to be pretty open as it has an open staircase on one side, and a 4’ wide opening on the other. Without the rears and nearfield playing, there’s a huge dip in the MLP. Which is the place I optimized the settings for.
So I’m wondering if I’m chasing pots of gold at the end of rainbows, or if I can move the “calibration bubble” as it’s put in the walkthrough, back some. Without hurting, or hopefully helping, bass response a the MLP too. We will see. I’ll play with it tomorrow.
I am happy though, after checking the amp, and MiniDSP, I was around -4 dB from clipping anything with the MV at 0

Edit:
I tried. I just can’t get it any better then it is. Anything I did to make the back seating better destroyed the response at the mlp. So I ended up back where I started. @mtg90 is it sometimes just not possible, depending on the room, to get more then 1 good looking seat for bass? I’m thinking it’s because my room is not sealed in the back, and also the back row of seats is behind my nearfield. IDK but I gave up again for now.

Last edited by Jk7.2; 07-07-2019 at 03:33 PM.
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post #206 of 208 Old 07-08-2019, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
I think I’m ready to do this walk through again. But this time, taking more measurements per step.
The other day, I thought I was hearing a little distortion, so I turned off my rear subs, and the nearfields. The most amazing thing happened, with only the front subs playing, it sounded twice as loud! Well, only from the back of my room, that happens to be pretty open as it has an open staircase on one side, and a 4’ wide opening on the other. Without the rears and nearfield playing, there’s a huge dip in the MLP. Which is the place I optimized the settings for.
So I’m wondering if I’m chasing pots of gold at the end of rainbows, or if I can move the “calibration bubble” as it’s put in the walkthrough, back some. Without hurting, or hopefully helping, bass response a the MLP too. We will see. I’ll play with it tomorrow.
I am happy though, after checking the amp, and MiniDSP, I was around -4 dB from clipping anything with the MV at 0

Edit:
I tried. I just can’t get it any better then it is. Anything I did to make the back seating better destroyed the response at the mlp. So I ended up back where I started. @mtg90 is it sometimes just not possible, depending on the room, to get more then 1 good looking seat for bass? I’m thinking it’s because my room is not sealed in the back, and also the back row of seats is behind my nearfield. IDK but I gave up again for now.
FWIW I quit focusing on the back row years ago. People who sit back there don't care, and don't even notice if the bass is a little off. Measuring my response back there it is still above average, but nothing like what I shoot for on the front row. It's hard unless you have many distributed subs all over the place to really smooth the response out for several rows. With an odd room it makes it even more challenging.
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Last edited by beastaudio; 07-08-2019 at 12:03 PM.
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post #207 of 208 Old 07-08-2019, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
FWIW I quite focusing on the back row years ago. People who sit back there don't care, and don't even notice if the bass is a little off. Measuring my response back there it is still above average, but nothing like what I shoot for on the front row. It's hard unless you have many distributed subs all over the place to really smooth the response out for several rows. With an odd room it makes it even more challenging.
If I can get two seats right, I'm happy, but my seat is the priority. If I want to demo to someone who would appreciate it, I will just give them my seat.
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post #208 of 208 Old 07-08-2019, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
If I can get two seats right, I'm happy, but my seat is the priority. If I want to demo to someone who would appreciate it, I will just give them my seat.


Yeah I definitely get it. I’m gonna have 30+ guys from this forum over next month. I was just hoping to get better response everywhere for everyone. But people always share seating in my front row. It works out.
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