Taming the HS-24 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 327Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
baniels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 1,385
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked: 363
Taming the HS24

EDIT: Jump to this post for the start of the final chapter. And straight to this post for the completed pics.
----------------
It's time for a winter project.

I am thinking to replace my 2 sealed 18-D2's with a pair of Nick's HS24's. The target volume is 15 cubic feet per cabinet. I am trying to constrain the width and depth by building upward.

My current design is outlined below, with renders showing the structure of the bracing.

48x26.5x26.5
15.224 cubic ft (before the driver)
190 lbs (before the driver)
Triple 3/4" baffle, with single 3/4" wall elsewhere
All panels braced no less than every 7 inches
Interlocking braces
Rabbet joints all around

Before I start making dust, I want hear some thoughts on the adequacy of the cabinet's mass to tame this beastly driver. In Ricci's review of the driver, he mentioned excessive shaking of his heavy test stand. One other (can't remember where) suggested bolting his cabinet to the floor would be helpful. Sibuna's cabinet showed some tremoring

Give me some feedback.

If I used 1" MDF for the walls, assuming the same external dimensions, that would bring my unloaded weight to 222 lbs. I have access to that material, but I don't want to add the weight if it isn't necessary.

THOUGHTS?




Last edited by baniels; 02-06-2017 at 11:28 AM.
baniels is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 01:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
squiers007's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Newport, OR
Posts: 1,697
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 789 Post(s)
Liked: 417
Damn! Best rendering ever!! I'm guessing you are in graphic design of some sort to pull off renders like that? Should be awesome when completed.

Check out my End-Table Marty Build
squiers007 is offline  
post #3 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 01:37 PM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 21,509
Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5985 Post(s)
Liked: 5114
Scott Simonian is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 01:58 PM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2725
Dude... that rendering...

DA FUQ?

MIND = BLOWN.

How you do that ?
Mfusick is offline  
post #5 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 01:59 PM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2725
Also.. judging by the 3D digital render and the obscene brace cutouts I assume you will CNC cut this all ?

Cause there is for sure easier ways to cut bracing than that render if you are wood working.
Mfusick is offline  
post #6 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
baniels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 1,385
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by squiers007 View Post
Damn! Best rendering ever!! I'm guessing you are in graphic design of some sort to pull off renders like that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
How you do that ?
I use Solidworks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Also.. judging by the 3D digital render and the obscene brace cutouts I assume you will CNC cut this all ?
Yes. I have a CNC in my freezer. I mean in my garage.
baniels is offline  
post #7 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 02:10 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Fatshaft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,994
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 593 Post(s)
Liked: 921
sub'd

My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
Fatshaft is offline  
post #8 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 02:11 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,172
Mentioned: 309 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3714 Post(s)
Liked: 3679
Put the sub closer to the floor so it rocks less. That, or make it flatter and not as tall.
Mfusick and BacHolz like this.
notnyt is offline  
post #9 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 02:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jpmst3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Davidsville, PA
Posts: 8,591
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked: 314
Much of the rocking from the test was the result of the lever created by suspending it that way. It will rock much less in a large cabinet with a lower center of gravity. There will still be vibration, but nothing like the test scenario.

______________________________________________
Joe = LFE Addict
Past Builds: 24" LMS-5400 cube, Anarchy 25Hz Tapped Horn, Danley DTS-10 kit, BFM AutoTuba, BFM THT, BFM THT-LP
Joe's LOWARHORN build, Dual LMS-5400 Ultra Endtables build
jpmst3 is offline  
post #10 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 02:56 PM
Advanced Member
 
MemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 749
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked: 65
How about a 30cuft Dual Opposed...




Or I guess you could just place them back to back, although then you couldn't see them firing into the room and scaring people lol


Ooh, actually...

PPSL layout with two separate boxes joined together?
MemX is offline  
post #11 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
baniels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 1,385
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Put the sub closer to the floor so it rocks less. That, or make it flatter and not as tall.
I had considered that. But somehow the appearance is objectionable to me.

An inch of of granite at 26.5x26.5 would be about 70lbs. I could always add more mass if shaking is a problem.

Some quick and dirties of that option. Maybe it'll grow on me.

baniels is offline  
post #12 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 04:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manic1!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,158
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked: 97
Add 1 or 2 of these. Make a slot on the bottom to hold them.

Manic1! is offline  
post #13 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 04:39 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,172
Mentioned: 309 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3714 Post(s)
Liked: 3679
dual opposed is really the way to go, but if you want to cabs, keep it low to the ground.
notnyt is offline  
post #14 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 06:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
filtor1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,401
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 258 Post(s)
Liked: 232
I really like the one on the right personally. Reminds me of the woofer placement on the CV D9's.
filtor1 is online now  
post #15 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 07:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Fatshaft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,994
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 593 Post(s)
Liked: 921
That's what I did and it's working really well...then again it's not a 24 incher
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9833.JPG
Views:	3580
Size:	270.2 KB
ID:	400514  

My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
Fatshaft is offline  
post #16 of 402 Old 12-03-2014, 09:41 PM
Advanced Member
 
mhutchins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 920
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 230 Post(s)
Liked: 223
You could make the base wider than the box for more stability. You could also add bags of lead shot inside the enclosure after it is put in position but before the driver is mounted.
mhutchins is offline  
post #17 of 402 Old 12-04-2014, 12:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
antisuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 632
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 137 Post(s)
Liked: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by baniels View Post
I had considered that. But somehow the appearance is objectionable to me.

An inch of of granite at 26.5x26.5 would be about 70lbs. I could always add more mass if shaking is a problem.

Some quick and dirties of that option. Maybe it'll grow on me.

I like the middle one, with the addition of a name plaque or some other decorative detail in the space above the driver.
antisuck is offline  
post #18 of 402 Old 12-04-2014, 05:50 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
PassingInterest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 2,115
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 532
Red braces always function better than yellow, green or blue ones.
Just kidding.

Ultra-cool renderings, Ben!
baniels likes this.
PassingInterest is offline  
post #19 of 402 Old 12-04-2014, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
baniels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 1,385
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked: 363
That's an idea. I'll see how it looks to center the driver on the lower blue brace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post
I like the middle one, with the addition of a name plaque or some other decorative detail in the space above the driver.
baniels is offline  
post #20 of 402 Old 12-04-2014, 06:30 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Blair, NE
Posts: 3,786
Mentioned: 313 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1527 Post(s)
Liked: 1856
Quote:
Originally Posted by baniels View Post
Before I start making dust, I want hear some thoughts on the adequacy of the cabinet's mass to tame this beastly driver. In Ricci's review of the driver, he mentioned excessive shaking of his heavy test stand. One other (can't remember where) suggested bolting his cabinet to the floor would be helpful. Sibuna's cabinet showed some tremoring.
Ricci said, "At around 3” peak to peak the driver seemed in little danger and still had some clearance before the cone contacted the spider spacer on the inward portion of stroke. By this point the surround was starting to dimple visibly. An unforeseen issue was that at this much excursion my entire test stand which probably weighs 250-300lbs unloaded was starting to shake violently."

1. 3" peak to peak is past X-Max
2. How much power will you have available?
3. Using two drivers with enough power to get to 3" peak to peak means that most likely you would need to be listening at 6 dB louder than one driver
4. I bet that 99% of the time your drivers will be under 12mm of excursion
5. Nice renderings
desertdome is offline  
post #21 of 402 Old 12-04-2014, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
baniels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 1,385
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked: 363
Reasonable points and questions, Michael.

I will be power limited to start with. I'll be using my NU6K until the need and means align to add more power. With that amp I think I can briefly squeeze out 2.45kW with one channel and 2.05kW with both channels. At 2.45kW, xMax is met at 4.5hz. At 2.05kW it is 3.3hz. With signal chain rolloff I'll probably never get there. But I still think I should be considering the influence of the moving mass on the cabinet.

I know that @Bill Fitzmaurice often talks about using 1/2" ply with intelligent bracing to keep cabinets light and sturdy, but I don't think any amount of bracing will keep a box from shaking if it doesn't have enough mass when using a driver like this. Maybe he will chime in.

I want to plan for someday having another circuit and a clone, even if that isn't in my short term plans. Half the fun for me is in designing the cabinet - and sometimes that means solving problems that beyond reality's horizon. This may be one of those cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Ricci said, "At around 3” peak to peak the driver seemed in little danger and still had some clearance before the cone contacted the spider spacer on the inward portion of stroke. By this point the surround was starting to dimple visibly. An unforeseen issue was that at this much excursion my entire test stand which probably weighs 250-300lbs unloaded was starting to shake violently."

1. 3" peak to peak is past X-Max
2. How much power will you have available?
3. Using two drivers with enough power to get to 3" peak to peak means that most likely you would need to be listening at 6 dB louder than one driver
4. I bet that 99% of the time your drivers will be under 12mm of excursion
5. Nice renderings

Last edited by baniels; 12-04-2014 at 12:01 PM.
baniels is offline  
post #22 of 402 Old 12-04-2014, 10:22 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
squiers007's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Newport, OR
Posts: 1,697
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 789 Post(s)
Liked: 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by baniels View Post
Reasonable points and questions, Michael.

I will be power limited to start with. I'll be using my NU6K until the need and means align to add more power. With that amp I think I can briefly squeeze out 2.45kW with one channel and 2.05kW with both channels. At 2.45kW, xMax is met at 4.5hz. At 2.05kW it is 3.3hz. With signal chain rolloff I'll probably never get there. But I still think I should be considering the influence of the moving mass on the cabinet.

I know that Bill F. often talk about using 1/2" ply with intelligent bracing to keep cabinets light and sturdy, but I don't think any amount of bracing will keep a box from shaking if it doesn't have enough mass when using a driver like this. Maybe he will chime in (I don't see the member tagging feature anymore).

I want to plan for someday having another circuit and a clone, even if that isn't in my short term plans. Half the fun for me is in designing the cabinet - and sometimes that means solving problems that beyond reality's horizon. This may be one of those cases.
Not sure how to tag baniels, but you can "mention" someone by placing the @ symbol in front of there name as I have done here with yours @baniels
baniels likes this.

Check out my End-Table Marty Build
squiers007 is offline  
post #23 of 402 Old 12-04-2014, 01:32 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 14,366
Mentioned: 390 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5475 Post(s)
Liked: 5281
Quote:
Originally Posted by baniels View Post
Reasonable points and questions, Michael.

I will be power limited to start with. I'll be using my NU6K until the need and means align to add more power. With that amp I think I can briefly squeeze out 2.45kW with one channel and 2.05kW with both channels. At 2.45kW, xMax is met at 4.5hz. At 2.05kW it is 3.3hz. With signal chain rolloff I'll probably never get there. But I still think I should be considering the influence of the moving mass on the cabinet.

I know that @Bill Fitzmaurice often talks about using 1/2" ply with intelligent bracing to keep cabinets light and sturdy, but I don't think any amount of bracing will keep a box from shaking if it doesn't have enough mass when using a driver like this. Maybe he will chime in.

I want to plan for someday having another circuit and a clone, even if that isn't in my short term plans. Half the fun for me is in designing the cabinet - and sometimes that means solving problems that beyond reality's horizon. This may be one of those cases.
I will chime in a little. You can't have enough bracing for that 24 and a triple front baffle is certainly a must. With my test box I did for the g2g back in April, I ended up with this, and a single thick front baffle (Ran out of wood) and I needed more structural integrity to say the least.

baniels likes this.

European Models do not accept banana plugs
Belly of the Beast: Bass Bunker Theater
beastaudio is offline  
post #24 of 402 Old 12-04-2014, 05:10 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
N8DOGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,479
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1290 Post(s)
Liked: 1524
I personally couldn't imagine putting it in a box like the OP wants, unless it was with the driver right at the bottom and had an extra 100lbs of mass added somehow..... or it was made out of 1" MDF double sided with ply mounting. pretty much 2 boxes in one if it's gonna sit tall. It would be close to 400lbs with driver lol. But it wouldn't be moving!!!

My FTW 21's are in 24" cubes and are 217lbs per box (with driver), even they, without the other boxes on top, will wiggle around but I didn't want to have too big of a box and they are center mounted, I could imagine the 24" in even double that, not walking across the floor lol

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

N8DOGG is offline  
post #25 of 402 Old 12-04-2014, 05:17 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,172
Mentioned: 309 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3714 Post(s)
Liked: 3679
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I personally couldn't imagine putting it in a box like the OP wants, unless it was with the driver right at the bottom and had an extra 100lbs of mass added somehow..... or it was made out of 1" MDF double sided with ply mounting. pretty much 2 boxes in one if it's gonna sit tall. It would be close to 400lbs with driver lol. But it wouldn't be moving!!!

My FTW 21's are in 24" cubes and are 217lbs per box (with driver), even they, without the other boxes on top, will wiggle around but I didn't want to have too big of a box and they are center mounted, I could imagine the 24" in even double that, not walking across the floor lol
He should really go dual opposed :/ but that gets big.
notnyt is offline  
post #26 of 402 Old 12-04-2014, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
baniels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 1,385
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked: 363
If I had the flexibility, I might consider that. I am really pushing the practical limits of the space with this footprint as it is. Below is the space I'm talking about (currently 18's). This is the main live/play/etc area of a home with two kids... one 5 and the other <2 yrs old. A dedicated theater it is not.

I have been swayed by your original idea though. I'm putting the driver much closer to the floor. New renders to follow in a little while.



Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
He should really go dual opposed :/ but that gets big.
baniels is offline  
post #27 of 402 Old 12-04-2014, 09:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
N8DOGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,479
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1290 Post(s)
Liked: 1524
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
He should really go dual opposed :/ but that gets big.
I missed the part where he had 2 lol.... so ya dual opposed would be the best choice but damn that would be a huge box! LOL
I know a guy who built a theater baffle wall out of 2 feet of concrete and has 6 XXX's in it, you can feel the wall move when they are hammering.... it's amazing what a sub can do to wreak havok on everything around it.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

N8DOGG is offline  
post #28 of 402 Old 12-05-2014, 11:12 AM
 
Swolephile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,262
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 896 Post(s)
Liked: 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by baniels View Post
I had considered that. But somehow the appearance is objectionable to me.

An inch of of granite at 26.5x26.5 would be about 70lbs. I could always add more mass if shaking is a problem.

Some quick and dirties of that option. Maybe it'll grow on me.


Oh man this is exactly what I'm looking for. I want to tall and slender 15 cubic ft boxes for my pair of SI 24's. I have no problem lifting them around but the short, fax boxes are a pain in the rear to move. These would be ideal to move around due to the minimal depth.
Swolephile is offline  
post #29 of 402 Old 12-05-2014, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
baniels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 1,385
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked: 363
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I have incorporated the center of gravity idea from @notnyt , and the use of the upper baffle space for a design element from @antisuck . That may or may not happen... it would take a lot of machine time to execute that elegantly.

I also beefed up the bracing a little bit more.

Internal volume is now 15.1249
Dry weight increased by 5 lbs from the bracing changes, and another 10 or so from the "ripple" face. Final unloaded weight is 204.5lbs.

Toying with grille options as well.


baniels is offline  
post #30 of 402 Old 12-05-2014, 05:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Pain Infliction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 4,233
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 980 Post(s)
Liked: 514
Those ripples look awesome!

The Thompson Theater

RIP William Alexander
Pain Infliction is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off