Quick Cinema 88 Special build - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 30 Old 12-04-2014, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick Cinema 88 Special build

Season's Greetings!

I decided to pick up a pair of diysoundgroup cinema 1 - the 88 specials. Planning to use them as rear surrounds and maybe even side surrounds as well...still not sure if I should use Volts as sides and 88's as rears ...

I figured I would share some quick and ugly cell phone shots of the flat pack assembly and testing for those that may be considering the speakers.

I added some dacron to the box, sealed the inside of the box with a nearly empty open tube of silicone I had lying around.

I left the port area open and unrestricted of dacron as best as possible.

I picked up a 4 feet x 6" sheet of 1/4" plywood that I cut for 99 cents at Michael's to use as my crossover boards. I'm pretty sure I got the crossovers correct since everything sounds good to my ears.

The detail and dynamics are extremely impressive. Thank you Erich and Mr. Bagby!




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post #2 of 30 Old 12-04-2014, 10:29 PM
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Well you will never want for volume in the surround sound channels again.
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post #3 of 30 Old 12-05-2014, 10:44 AM
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Having those as surrounds in tantamount to having 32x18" subs....well done sir.

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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post #4 of 30 Old 12-05-2014, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Having those as surrounds in tantamount to having 32x18" subs....well done sir.
I plan to "only" start out with ten 18" subs, so I figured I would try to make up for the lack of the other 22 sub drivers via these cinema 88s

These really are quite impressive speakers ... for the price, they are extremely impressive.

I have never heard any other SEOS design in stereo. These do not really need to be toe'd in that much or at all in my short experience with them. This 15" SEOS seems to evenly spread the coverage quite well for a very large perceived "sweet spot".
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post #5 of 30 Old 12-05-2014, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jake515 View Post
Well you will never want for volume in the surround sound channels again.
assembling, creating, building is all about having massive "headroom"
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post #6 of 30 Old 12-06-2014, 05:31 PM
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Out of curiosity... How do the 88s compare to the Danleys?
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post #7 of 30 Old 01-28-2015, 02:47 AM
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Out of curiosity... How do the 88s compare to the Danleys?
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post #8 of 30 Old 01-28-2015, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
assembling, creating, building is all about having massive "headroom"
How would you compare the 88's to klipsch tower speakers like the RF-82II? I am currently using a older version of those the Rf-82 and a Rc-64II center.

Wondering how you think they compare.
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post #9 of 30 Old 01-28-2015, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
How would you compare the 88's to klipsch tower speakers like the RF-82II? I am currently using a older version of those the Rf-82 and a Rc-64II center.

Wondering how you think they compare.
I have the original RF7s and RC7s in the family room. I never did critical side by side listening, but the biggest difference you notice right away is bass. The 88s are meant to be run with subs. The RF7s can be run without subs for music, but the 88s cannot (per the 88's design they are flat down to around 60hz). Two 8" woofers in a very small cabinet will be hard pressed to compete with Two 10" woofers in a much larger cabinet.

The sweet spot is probably a bit wider with the 88's than with the RF7's given the same listening distances and optimal toe-in set up for each speaker.

The tonality is different, but I don't find one to be better than the other in this regard. It would all just be subjective opinion anyway (if I did find one better).

If you are content with running subs for any and all content, and don't mind assembling some cabinets and crossovers, I think the right choice is the 88's over the 7's or 82s. Once you factor in the money difference (unless you are looking at the used market), the 88's become a clearer choice given the same above assumptions.
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post #10 of 30 Old 01-28-2015, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radi0active View Post
Out of curiosity... How do the 88s compare to the Danleys?
How do the 88's compare to the SH50's? They don't.

The sensitivity of the 88s are great at keeping up with the Danley's for surround duty. I very much like the 88's and would consider using them elsewhere in the house as mains, but the home theater will not see the 88's as mains with the SH50s around.
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post #11 of 30 Old 01-28-2015, 01:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
I have the original RF7s and RC7s in the family room. I never did critical side by side listening, but the biggest difference you notice right away is bass. The 88s are meant to be run with subs. The RF7s can be run without subs for music, but the 88s cannot (per the 88's design they are flat down to around 60hz). Two 8" woofers in a very small cabinet will be hard pressed to compete with Two 10" woofers in a much larger cabinet.

The sweet spot is probably a bit wider with the 88's than with the RF7's given the same listening distances and optimal toe-in set up for each speaker.

The tonality is different, but I don't find one to be better than the other in this regard. It would all just be subjective opinion anyway (if I did find one better).

If you are content with running subs for any and all content, and don't mind assembling some cabinets and crossovers, I think the right choice is the 88's over the 7's or 82s. Once you factor in the money difference (unless you are looking at the used market), the 88's become a clearer choice given the same above assumptions.

He has (12) 18" subwoofers. And already owns the Klipsch. He was considering upgrading or switching. He wants to do a baffle wall, but the rear ported on the Klipsch makes them a poor choice for that. He is wondering if the 88 would be louder, sound better, image better, more accurate etc... than what he has.

I told him to ask you because you are pretty smart with this stuff, and your opinion is one I would respect. I was trying to answer his questions- but I have limited experience with Klipsch. I knew you owned both.. so logically it made sense to ask you. The fact you like the Klipsch too, also gives some value in what you say. He likes his too.
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post #12 of 30 Old 01-28-2015, 01:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
How do the 88's compare to the SH50's? They don't.

The sensitivity of the 88s are great at keeping up with the Danley's for surround duty. I very much like the 88's and would consider using them elsewhere in the house as mains, but the home theater will not see the 88's as mains with the SH50s around.
Haha. Big boy speakers.
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post #13 of 30 Old 01-28-2015, 01:57 PM
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I'd expect more mid-bass output from the 88 at high drive level.

The RF-7 (and RF-82) are using woofers built for more extension, into the 30's.
Granted, they are bigger boxes (two and a half times the volume), but I don't think that would extend the frequency response from 60Hz to 30Hz.

The sensitivity of the woofers is probably a lot lower, which may not be an issue until you turn them up and you're drawing a lot more watts for bass than you are for treble.
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post #14 of 30 Old 01-28-2015, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
He has (12) 18" subwoofers. And already owns the Klipsch. He was considering upgrading or switching. He wants to do a baffle wall, but the rear ported on the Klipsch makes them a poor choice for that. He is wondering if the 88 would be louder, sound better, image better, more accurate etc... than what he has.

I told him to ask you because you are pretty smart with this stuff, and your opinion is one I would respect. I was trying to answer his questions- but I have limited experience with Klipsch. I knew you owned both.. so logically it made sense to ask you. The fact you like the Klipsch too, also gives some value in what you say. He likes his too.
Understood. If going the DIYSG way, I would opt for the SEOS 15 and take advantage of the low crossover abilities that the SEOS 15 can offer. If you have the space, I think a MTM with the 15 would be a good route to go for a baffle design.

Baffle designs don't work for every speaker ... I assume this homework has already been done for the 88's. Did Jeff Bagby have any changes he recommended in the crossover if the 88's go in a baffle vs free air/open space?

Where is he located? If you wanna here the 88's and are not too far away I can try to set something up.
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post #15 of 30 Old 01-28-2015, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Haha. Big boy speakers.
Perhaps they are ... 88's are no slouch

Just very very very different designs between the loudspeakers being discussed.
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post #16 of 30 Old 01-28-2015, 02:21 PM
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Not sure how different the RF-82 is from the RF-83?
The RF-83 shouldn't really be called an 8ohm speaker (but they do), since it has a dip to 2.8 ohms at 180 Hz, right in the mid-bass zone. http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...speaker-system

So, 20v at 8ohms would be 50w of power from the amp.
But 20v at 2.8ohms is 143w, which would clip receivers and yield power compression and distortion in the woofers.

At lower drive levels like 10v, it's 36w for 2.8ohms vs 12w for 8ohms, so not a problem.

If you consider it more like a 4-6ohm speaker, then if you want to compare sensitivity to other speakers, you might normalize and drop the Klipsch sensitivity a few dB.
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post #17 of 30 Old 01-28-2015, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd expect more mid-bass output from the 88 at high drive level.

The RF-7 (and RF-82) are using woofers built for more extension, into the 30's.
Granted, they are bigger boxes (two and a half times the volume), but I don't think that would extend the frequency response from 60Hz to 30Hz.

The sensitivity of the woofers is probably a lot lower, which may not be an issue until you turn them up and you're drawing a lot more watts for bass than you are for treble.
The 88's are most likely very close to the 98.5 sensitivity rating per specs ...

the RF7's are not 102 sensitivity as spec'd ... they are closer to 97 ... I would assume the same for the 82's ... I haven't looked at their spec's nor tested their actual sensitivity

I've never modeled either speaker and their drivers in a cabinet to know what extension is derived from the drivers vs the cabinet.

The RF7's love power (current mainly I believe for controlling the woofers) even with the very high 90s senstivity. The RF7's also dip down to 3.2 Ohms and are closer to 6 ohm nominal speaker. The 88's are not similar from the plots/graphs I have seen. I do not know if the 82s compare to the RF7s with the aforementioned.

If the baffle wall is the route you want to go and the 88's are a good fit for the baffle wall, I believe you will very much be happy with your choice to switch to the 88's, if that is the choice you make. I think it is hard to do a direct comparison to a speaker in a baffle wall versus a speaker of a different design not in a baffle wall.
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Baffle wall would help fill out the bottom on the 88 and provide more oomph
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post #19 of 30 Old 01-29-2015, 06:04 AM
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My LRC all have 200 rms powering them to cover any potential dips and keep the power coming when needed.

Seems like if I go to baffle wall they make a good choice as my klipsch wont work. I may go the way of AT wall, I think if I did that might as well keep what I have in place. Sounds like the speakers are different from one another but doesn't seem like the 88 is better in one way or another sound wise and its more a preference type thing. If I could afford the SH50 now that would be a upgrade.
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post #20 of 30 Old 01-29-2015, 11:23 AM
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My LRC all have 200 rms powering them to cover any potential dips and keep the power coming when needed.
So you are preventing clipping in the amp. But all speakers distort, and they distort more when under duress, and the duress starts at a fraction of their power-handling. One may not immediately identify it as such, but rather as the typical, "I don't like it played that loud." Then when replaced with other speakers, it becomes, "Wow, I don't even realize it's loud now, and it sounds to 'clean'!"

I've seen how drivers become non-linear and distort well below Xmax, so I'd steer towards using a quarter of peak power handling, keeping well below Xmax.
Which you may well be doing with the RF-82 even with those low impedance dips, so you might be fine.

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Sounds like the speakers are different from one another but doesn't seem like the 88 is better in one way or another sound wise and its more a preference type thing.
Holding directivity control lower and keeping more of vocal frequency range to one driver (like the tweeter and waveguide) is often a goal. The 88 offers a 900Hz crossover instead of a 1400Hz one.

The waveguides are completely different. Which one has fewer high order modes problems causing distortion? I don't know...the waveguide shootout still needs to be completed. But that's something the SEOS project worked on.

Are the 8" drivers in the 88 of higher quality, with lower distortion, than the ones in the Klipsch? Are the Klipsch's better with suspension components designed to make the travel of the woofer more linear in both directions at higher output? Do they have shorting rings and such to make the magnetic field more linear in the gap, so that at 1% power and 50% the voicecoil sees a linear field and not an asymmetrical one (distortion)?

Likewise for their respective compression drivers.

I don't know the answers to those, but they'd contribute to a higher or lower quality when the speaker is pushed.

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If I could afford the SH50 now that would be a upgrade.
Yeah that'd be an upgrade over all of them. It holds directivity much lower as all the drivers are essentially in that waveguide.
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post #21 of 30 Old 01-29-2015, 12:10 PM
 
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I don't even think you can compare a SH50 to a Klipsch or 88. It's not really even a valid comparison. It's like a Toyota to a Lamborghini. Totally different.
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post #22 of 30 Old 01-29-2015, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't even think you can compare a SH50 to a Klipsch or 88. It's not really even a valid comparison. It's like a Toyota to a Lamborghini. Totally different.
I use the phrase "comparing apples to Buicks"
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post #23 of 30 Old 01-29-2015, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
My LRC all have 200 rms powering them to cover any potential dips and keep the power coming when needed.

Seems like if I go to baffle wall they make a good choice as my klipsch wont work. I may go the way of AT wall, I think if I did that might as well keep what I have in place. Sounds like the speakers are different from one another but doesn't seem like the 88 is better in one way or another sound wise and its more a preference type thing. If I could afford the SH50 now that would be a upgrade.
The RF82 and RF7 should not be compared ... I've only ever heard an 82ii in a store, but the RF7 and RF7ii are not an RF82 ... you may like the 88 over the RF82
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post #24 of 30 Old 01-29-2015, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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post #25 of 30 Old 01-30-2015, 07:30 AM
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The Rf-7II are about 2k for a pair and they voice match with my center. Big downside is they are back ported and rather large which I am out of room on my front stage. Hence the reason for looking at a smaller speaker. Removing my 36" center channel to a 18" speaker frees up some space a bit. I could maybe throw two midbass drivers under the 88 on either side of the screen to help with their lack of bottom end. The 12 subs I have probably would do just as good a job as well I bet.
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I use the phrase "comparing apples to Buicks"
haha. I might steal that. I like it.
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post #27 of 30 Old 01-30-2015, 09:18 AM
 
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The Rf-7II are about 2k for a pair and they voice match with my center. Big downside is they are back ported and rather large which I am out of room on my front stage. Hence the reason for looking at a smaller speaker. Removing my 36" center channel to a 18" speaker frees up some space a bit. I could maybe throw two midbass drivers under the 88 on either side of the screen to help with their lack of bottom end. The 12 subs I have probably would do just as good a job as well I bet.
One JBL 2226 under an 88 special is actually a pretty simple thing to do, and would likely have a great result. Cross it slowly, should work well. Just don't run the 2226 up too high, keep it in the midbass bands and below. A passive/active 3way combo.
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post #28 of 30 Old 01-30-2015, 09:23 AM
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One JBL 2226 under an 88 special is actually a pretty simple thing to do, and would likely have a great result. Cross it slowly, should work well. Just don't run the 2226 up too high, keep it in the midbass bands and below. A passive/active 3way combo.
You think I could get away from active and build a crossover for it?
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post #29 of 30 Old 01-30-2015, 09:45 AM
 
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You think I could get away from active and build a crossover for it?
You could. But you'd first want to use the active to determine the right slope, frequency and all that. It's not super easy designing a passive crossover. It's easy to make one if you know what you want- like say a 200hz cross with a 12db slope, but you'd need to know what you wanted before you build that.

I like @bwaslo program Xsim
download from:

Pretty easy to model out a passive crossover. Then just buy the parts on PE. They are not expensive.
But I think when it comes to speaker design, and knowing which crossover to use for best sound, it's just a lot easier to use DSP in your inuke. You can easily change the slope, add EQ or delay, or change the crossover point. Finding the best sound takes a little experimenting and measuring usually- it's unlikley you would get optimal results with first try on a passive crossover.

If it was me- I would stick with active for the MBM, and run the 88 passive (using the crossover supplied in the kit and following it exactly). The only active part would be blending in the MBM... which is a lot more simple than designing a passive crossover for a speaker.

The higher you run it (the mbm) the more localization you get. You' also want to account for things like floor bounce, boundry reinforcement, effects of baffle wall etc... To do it right you'd need to measure and experiement in your room. You already know how to take measurements, and you have your mic and REW- so I think you could handle adding in a MBM. You know enough to get close, and you understand enough to use the community for help. Posting measurements and stuff in a thread is not beyond your abilities At the end of the day your ears are your guide anyways. Well, measurements too. That combo will get you there. If you run a MBM up too high you will notice where it comes from more, and you lose point source. So although the JBL2226 has a nice extended upper response, and smooth cone break up, you'd never really care about that. You would cross a lot lower over the the 88
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post #30 of 30 Old 12-31-2015, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I finally got around to finishing my other pair of 88s:





I had my original pair playing as mains while I was doing some finishing work in the theater:




The original pair were painted black as well so they would not be visible behind the speaker fabric:





The 88's are an amazing compact speaker. Having spent more time with them in a more "finished" room, I appreciate them even more than before.
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