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post #61 of 246 Old 12-28-2014, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post


Ok, got the Max's loaded up and hooked up Tues evening and listening to 2ch from some disc i scrounged up. Old Wyndham hill and GRP discs, not music I particularly wanted to listen to. This room/equipment made a huge difference in sound. Love the sound of this room. Despite that, something was off. Imaging was blurred so I toed the L&R as much as possible from 10 degrees to about 15 and that helped a little but clearly something was amiss, phasing, etc. Anyway I listened for about two hours.



Yesterday I was super busy all day so didn't get to room until late. And more importantly I've finally found my laptop. Bought a little mini laptop years ago just for use with my colorimeter, omnimic and WinISD. Been looking for it for months. So first ran omnimic to checkout. Found cause of the sound issues was RCA's reversed. Fixed it and were good now. I was concerned about getting the center broken as I have about 25hrs on the L&R and have yet to fire up the center. Here's a graph of the center @1M(black), then at the MLP(red), then with the left channel only(blue), I overlaid them as theres a 8.5db difference between the 1 meter and the MLP level. By looking at the graphs I now think that odyssey was engaged. I tried to avoid that as much as possible by using the pure mode. I didn't level match but I did set levels back to zero. No room corrections done because room isn't done, only the mains are installed and hooked up and I don't have the display in the room yet to even accomplish it. In fact playing DVD-audio wasn't an options. All the movie and music library is still in the garage but I did manage to find Steely Dan-Gaucho in DTS5.1 or in my case DTS3.0. Sound was GOOD. Crisp but smooth and extended. Time to wring these out. started cranking it. Got it up to about 5 db's before the system ran outa gas. Sound was shockingly clean with no distortion. I thought wow thats loud but its not driving from the room or volume knob. I don't have the remote out yet and I wasn't getting up for nothing. After about 15 mins I had to check the sound level. This was loud but my ears weren't ringing! I had no fatigue what so ever. Distortion sound loud but its grating and fatiguing. I've listened to a cut or two from this album loud before but after 2 minutes it was too much. Not this time. I listened to the whole album without touching the volume. Then again. Thats over an hour. Of all the the thousands of hours I've listened to music, from going to concerts and gigging and serious listening and movie watching, tens of thousand of hours, I'm sure, I've never done this without being deaf for hours or days afterwards. When the music was over I was ready for a third go around. Nothing was out place the whole time. Not a note. The Max's were effortless sounding at this extreme volume. How? Maybe it was putting a good speaker in a very good environment for it or who knows. I know the room and its different components has a big impact on sound, these units are taking care of their part. Heres the other aspect I want to comment on, Tactile Sound. There was a significant tactile impact with the fronts only. It easily matched what I had with my corner loaded 4x15 subs in the last house. Granted the Riser makes all the difference but the speakers still have to perform. The tactile response was stunning. Overwhelming. Anyway the average level was 113-118dbs continuous and effortlessly. They'll hit 130 [email protected] Thats it for now. More to come. And some video too.

118dbs at mlp? If mlp was 10' away it would take


130dbs... No way unless it was screeching like a banshee. For me I can't listen louder then 105dbs from my mains comfortably but I'm a woodshop teacher The Max wouldn't be any smoother then my 1099.

I am jealous of your theater. Looks really sweet.
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post #62 of 246 Old 12-28-2014, 11:11 PM
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I really dig the look of the new Fusion 10 Max, really reminds me of my old JTR 228HT's.
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post #63 of 246 Old 12-28-2014, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I really dig the look of the new Fusion 10 Max, really reminds me of my old JTR 228HT's.
I agree , luv the mtm look
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post #64 of 246 Old 12-28-2014, 11:36 PM
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Room gain will get you there easily assuming 118db overall including bass.
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post #65 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 02:01 AM
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Room gain will get you there easily assuming 118db overall including bass.
I was assuming it was just with the mains. Could have read it wrong. I do that sometimes
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post #66 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 05:09 AM
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Is that calculator figuring for a single speaker?

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post #67 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Presently, I only have the three mains hooked up. No other speakers are even in the room yet. As mentioned, I was playing The Steely Dan-Gaucho DTS 5.1 CD. Frontend is an Oppo 93, Onkyo 885 Pre/Pro and Emotive UPA-7. Playback was with the Onkyo in Pure Audio mode. I can't remember if that defeats bass management or not, but I zero'd the front three in the menu. I have since turned off Audyssey and will go back in the menu today and set them to full range. The mic was centered at the MLP 3M's back. This was with the combined output of all three speakers. I'm currently using my lowest wattage amp because I originally wanted to down size and use a receiver to power these. While I'm going to pare everything down from the mono block every speaker I will stay with separates.

WRT Room Gain. This is a small room. 15'4"x11'x9'(DxWxH). I came up with about 1430 cuft. I think it was Mfusick or MKtheater that said he has about 30db's of RG starting about 40hz in the same size room. My last dedicated theater was 19x18x8 and I had about 12db an octave measured from 40 on down. So RG doesn't kick in until around 40hz in small to mid size SEALED rooms. While the graphs show a rise at 40 I believe and it sounds like the tuning freq. I don't know that for sure and Tux told me the f3 was 60hz. Regardless, room gain had little to know effect. When I did the sine sweeps on the center channel only and then overlaid the graphs, there was a difference in volume of 8.5db's from the 1M position and the 3M MLP. I have a voltage meter to take accurate 2.0V/4ohm or 2.83V/8ohm 1khz db readings. Over the coming weeks and months I'll take and post a lot more info concerning these speakers.

WRT the Room. I wanted to explain further my comment of the rooms sounds good. It is typical of the dedicated theater room builds here on AVS Forum. Its DD+GG(double 5/8" drywall + Green Glue in between drywall layers). Wow, what a remarkable product GG is. Its so far beyond using just acoustical wall panels, which help a ton. Its amazing how quiet the room is. I've been to seminars/workshop with various acoustic companies @ces and the $100 speaker in the $500 room always sounds better than the $500 speaker in the $100 room. My noise floor is now in the 40's below 100hz and and lower up higher. And the door isn't sealed yet. So dynamics and response with this speaker remained the same even at extreme low levels. Bass that is usually covered up was still there. The goal was to be considerate of family members and neighbors and to attenuate a 120db sound thats 90db outside the room to 60-70dbs, and I've accomplished that. As important though is its given me a 20+db gain in dynamic range. Thats a big deal in watching movie and in certain types of music. Its remarkable the difference in sound stepping into the room from just outside the room is even with the door open. You notice subtle sounds like the refrigerator or laptops fans running now. These quiet sounds now are very noticeable and have a big impact on low level playback. This is for another topic but I just wanted to explain a little further want I meant.

WRT to the 1099. I haven't heard it and based my comments only on passed experience within different speaker lines. Preferring the Wilson Watt/Puppy over the X-1 Grand Slamms or the Magico Q1 over the Q5. I'm probably in the minority here for sure. but that has been my experience. I like the looks of a large floor-stander better though. Tux said he thought he liked the 1099 better then maybe wavered a little, when we discussed it. They probably sound more alike than anything. If it was me, I would have put the mids above and below the waveguide. For now it appears the 1099 is the flagship.

Last edited by coolrda; 12-31-2014 at 10:20 AM.
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post #68 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I really dig the look of the new Fusion 10 Max, really reminds me of my old JTR 228HT's.
That was my very first thought too.
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post #69 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
Presently, I only have the three mains hooked up. No other speakers are even in the room yet. As mentioned, I was playing The Steely Dan-Gaucho DTS 5.1 CD. Frontend is an Oppo 93, Onkyo 885 Pre/Pro and Emotive UPA-7. Playback was with the Onkyo in Pure Audio mode. I can't remember if that defeats bass management or not, but I zero'd the front three in the menu. I have since turned off Audyssey and will go back in the menu today and set them to full range. The mic was centered at the MLP 3M's back. This was with the combined output of all three speakers. I'm currently using my lowest wattage amp because I originally wanted to down size and use a receiver to power these. While I'm going to pare everything down from the mono block every speaker I will stay with separates.

WRT Room Gain. This is a small room. 15'4"x11'x9'(DxWxH). I came up with about 1430 cuft. I think it was Mfusick or MKtheater that said he has about 30db's of RG starting about 40hz in the same size room. My last dedicated theater was 19x18x8 and I had about 12db an octave measured from 40 on down. So RG doesn't kick in until around 40hz in small to mid size SEALED rooms. While the graphs show a rise at 40 I believe and it sounds like the tuning freq. I don't know that for sure and Tux told me the f3 was 60hz. Regardless, room gain had little to know effect. When I did the sine sweeps on the center channel only and then overlaid the graphs, there was a difference in volume of 8.5db's from the 1M position and the 3M MLP. I have a voltage meter to take accurate 2.0V/4ohm or 2.83V/8ohm 1khz db readings. Over the coming weeks and months I'll take and post a lot more info concerning these speakers.

WRT the Room. I wanted to explain further my comment of the rooms sounds good. It is typical of the dedicated theater room builds here on AVS Forum. Its DD+GG(double 5/8" drywall + Green Glue in between drywall layers). Wow, what a remarkable product GG is. Its so far beyond using just acoustical wall panels, which help a ton. Its amazing how quiet the room is. I've been to seminars/workshop with various acoustic companies @ces and the $100 speaker in the $500 room always sounds better than the $500 speaker in the $100 room. My noise floor is now in the 40's below 100hz and and lower up higher. And the door isn't sealed yet. So dynamics and response with this speaker remained the same even at extreme low levels. Bass that is usually covered up was still there. The goal was to be considerate of family members and neighbors and to attenuate a 120db sound thats 90db outside the room to 60-70dbs, and I've accomplished that. As important though is its given me a 20+db gain in dynamic range. Thats a big deal in watching movie and in certain types of music. Its remarkable the difference in sound stepping into the room from just outside the room is even with the door open. You notice subtle sounds like the refrigerator or laptops fans running now. These quiet sounds now are very noticeable and have a big impact on low level playback. This is for another topic but I just wanted to explain a little further want I meant.

WRT to the 1099. I haven't heard it and based my comments only on passed experience within different speaker lines. Preferring the Wilson Watt/Puppy over the X-1 Grand Slamms or the Magico Q1 over the Q5. I'm probably in the minority here for sure. but that has been my experience. I like the looks of a large floor-stander better though. Tux said he thought he liked the 1099 better then maybe wavered a little, when we discussed it. They probably sound more alike than anything. If it was me, I would have put the kids above and below the waveguide. For now it appears the 1099 is the flagship.
Now I really want your room
I want to move to a house with a basement but don't know if it will happen. My current theater in my living room has great sound but I don't get much room gain since its open to the whole top floor. If I do move I might pm you for some tips. You really know your stuff. Your probably right with eq the max and 1099 are very close.
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post #70 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 11:54 AM
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How shallow can these be made?

Last edited by Samps; 12-29-2014 at 11:55 AM. Reason: bad math
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post #71 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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118dbs at mlp? If mlp was 10' away it would take


130dbs... No way unless it was screeching like a banshee. For me I can't listen louder then 105dbs from my mains comfortably but I'm a woodshop teacher The Max wouldn't be any smoother then my 1099.

I am jealous of your theater. Looks really sweet.
Overlaying the high frequency output on the graphs due to limited to no room interaction is a good way to level match over distance. I came up with 8.5db to level match the 1M and 3M graphs. This was a mono sine wave, center channel only. So a 98db sensitivity speaker with be [email protected]'s. So then [email protected] watts and [email protected] watts. Now X3 fronts and 118dbs wasn't even pushing it. The fact that I listened at that volume tells me theres was little distortion. I've never been able to do that with any prior system before. I too wouldn't, couldn't listen that loud for so long with it being acoustically and electrically clean. Atleast I haven't been able to before. Remarkably i lower the volume to 60db average and the sound was identical just quieter. No ringing in the ears afterward like experienced from being at concerts even with earplugs. 128dbs is the instantaneous reading on the meter. I reset it a dozen times to verify db's. The meter was typically at 113 with swings to 118 and it was effortless and I do know what dynamic compression sounds like. No theory here just real world performance.

The Max certainly could be smoother. Their different speakers and crossovers. Or the 1099 could be the smoother one. Thanks for the compliment.
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post #72 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 12:04 PM
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118dbs at mlp? If mlp was 10' away it would take
130dbs... No way unless it was screeching like a banshee.
Using http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

2 speakers, near a wall, 3.3 feet, 98db sens., 200w, I get 127db.
Depending how heavily treated the room is, real loss due to distance is not 6db double distance, but closer to 3-4, so let's say 4db.
So lose ~7dB to get to 10'?

127-7 = 120dB.

Or 117dB 1 speaker.

I wonder what % of Xmax he's at with 200w? (per the talk of mid-bass punch and keeping to around half Xmax to keep distortion down)
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post #73 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Now I really want your room
I want to move to a house with a basement but don't know if it will happen. My current theater in my living room has great sound but I don't get much room gain since its open to the whole top floor. If I do move I might pm you for some tips. You really know your stuff. Your probably right with eq the max and 1099 are very close.

Isn't the Fusion 10 Max also designed by Ryan (tuxedocivic)?
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post #74 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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How shallow can these be made?
That was my biggest issue and I debated that to no end. We may need the drivers params loaded in WinISD to check that out. Physically you could go down to the 88's depth then eq the response. But then your changing the intended designs.
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post #75 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 12:16 PM
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Yes and my Fusion Max with one 10" Eminence woofer has been superceded by this.

Speaking of which, what would be a good match as a center to go with my two Fusion Max OG?
  • Plead Erich for the original baffle/parts/price for an identical
  • Fusion Pure (uses the Denovo 150)
  • Fusion Max 2.0 in this thread
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post #76 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Isn't the Fusion 10 Max also designed by Ryan (tuxedocivic)?
Yep.
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post #77 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 02:17 PM
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Yes and my Fusion Max with one 10" Eminence woofer has been superceded by this.

Speaking of which, what would be a good match as a center to go with my two Fusion Max OG?
  • Plead Erich for the original baffle/parts/price for an identical
  • Fusion Pure (uses the Denovo 150)
  • Fusion Max 2.0 in this thread
What about the 88-Special?


I'm sure you could get a single old style Fusion-10 Max if it was needed.

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post #78 of 246 Old 12-29-2014, 02:59 PM
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That was my biggest issue and I debated that to no end. We may need the drivers params loaded in WinISD to check that out. Physically you could go down to the 88's depth then eq the response. But then your changing the intended designs.
I'm thinking about making towers out of these. Using the supplied baffle but making a taller shallower box with the same internal volume. If I can do 9" deep that would work. I'd have to add some weight to the bottom but it would work better for me than stands.

Edit: 9" would make the height 45" which is too tall. Bummer cause this is my favorite. Back to the alchemy towers I go.

Last edited by Samps; 12-29-2014 at 03:42 PM.
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post #79 of 246 Old 12-30-2014, 09:19 PM
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The crossover boards only work with the design they are intended for.

Not sure about flat packs on this model. As of right now.......3 have been ordered.....they are the ones in this thread.
Erich,
I had a hard time finding on your site. I kept thinking they were the 1099 but I knew knew the difference. You might want to add them to one of the drop downs. Just a thought. Thanks for all you do. I'll be ordering 5 or 6 pairs of something soon.
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post #80 of 246 Old 12-31-2014, 05:51 AM
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They're in the Fusion series under 10" woofer models, where they should be given the name!

 

My DIY Subs ... https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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What about the 88-Special?


I'm sure you could get a single old style Fusion-10 Max if it was needed.
Why not DIY a baffle with the wave guide horizontally in the middle either from scratch or by chopping up the kit baffle?
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post #82 of 246 Old 01-02-2015, 09:16 AM
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It's not the simple. That would spread the two woofers apart by quite a bit which would require a much lower crossover point. Lower than most compression drivers can do. Someone smarter than me could explain it better. I believe it's called 'lobing' or 'comb filtering' when you try to do that.

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It's not the simple. That would spread the two woofers apart by quite a bit which would require a much lower crossover point. Lower than most compression drivers can do. Someone smarter than me could explain it better. I believe it's called 'lobing' or 'comb filtering' when you try to do that.
Correct, When two speakers are sent the same signal they will act as one speaker until the wavelength is equal to or smaller than the distance between them. Wavelengths shorter (higher pitch) than the distance between the drivers will start to comb filter as they cross.

For 10" drivers crossed at 1500Hz they would need to be within 4.5" to prevent most of this. (there will still be some interaction above the crossover point for about an octave.)

Edit: For a 10" spacing the crossover point would need to be 670Hz.

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post #84 of 246 Old 01-02-2015, 10:52 AM
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Why not DIY a baffle with the wave guide horizontally in the middle either from scratch or by chopping up the kit baffle?
My application is behind an acoustic transparent screen, so vertical is fine.

I'm not sure how timbre-mismatched the other speakers would be to mine. Is the Denovo 150 in the same SEOS-12 where the bulk of the matching going to occur? Or would the 10" woofer versus other designs' 12" woofers make a big enough difference to matter? Or are the timbre differences masked due to room interaction of L & R vs C?
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Correct, When two speakers are sent the same signal they will act as one speaker until the wavelength is equal to or smaller than the distance between them.
Awesome.


This must be the theory behind the 1099s mids under the waveguide, to fill the spread created in the speaker response by the wider configuration of the main woofers.



Are there some good threads which cover the impact of baffle width? In the setup photos above the baffle of the speaker is roughly flush with the screen wall creating what appears to be a continuous plane. Physically it would be possible to easily go wider or sometimes narrower in a cabinet or to use the nifty large 45° bevel versus a 3/4" round over so there must be some design theory at work here too.

If the baffle width and edges are really important to the response of the speaker then the 10 max would not sound like the OP for me as I use a free standing configuration.
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Originally Posted by op-center View Post
Awesome.


This must be the theory behind the 1099s mids under the waveguide, to fill the spread created in the speaker response by the wider configuration of the main woofers.



Are there some good threads which cover the impact of baffle width? In the setup photos above the baffle of the speaker is roughly flush with the screen wall creating what appears to be a continuous plane. Physically it would be possible to easily go wider or sometimes narrower in a cabinet or to use the nifty large 45° bevel versus a 3/4" round over so there must be some design theory at work here too.

If the baffle width and edges are really important to the response of the speaker then the 10 max would not sound like the OP for me as I use a free standing configuration.
Baffle walls extend and smooth LF response among several other benefits. It doesn't change the speakers response or sound. Just extends the LF another octave or so. These speakers sound good on stands close to the wall, as well as, pulled out into the room. Heres some good info on baffle walls.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322baffle-walls/
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post #87 of 246 Old 01-03-2015, 06:19 PM
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Hi CoolRDA

Noob here. But Ive been reading this thread (several times) and many others in preparing for a HT system par excellence.

Currently: XPA-5, Onkyo 818, Ascend Acoustics 340SE's (LRC) and HTM200SE's for surrounds, HSU VTF 3 Mk4 sub. I find the system incapable of playing even at reference 0DB without getting that "burning smell" come through in a matter of minutes - mostly from the centre channel, and I've played with the Audyssey 32XT at length.


So, I am looking for a better, fuller sound. When you say that your Fusion 10Max's are narrow in the vertical plane, would having a 88Special as a centre be a better choice to spread the sweet spot in a larger vertical plane with 10Max's as LR?


Secondly: I am curious if one had the space, if it were possible to put a second Fusion 10Max laying horizontally on top of the original vertical 10Max to spread the sound stage both up and down. If not, how about laying the original 10Max horizontally to give a vertical dispersion whereas the LR vertical 10Max's would provide the horizontal soundstage.


Thoughts? Appreciate your response.
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post #88 of 246 Old 01-03-2015, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
Coolrda, do you have more details posted somewhere about how you built/designed your baffle/screen wall? The Fusion Max looks like it was purposefully designed for this specific application far more so than as a free standing speaker.

My wife does not like the look of the SEOS speakers but surprisingly she really likes the idea of a screen wall so I may have found a way to get set in my theater after all if I can build a decent screen wall to hide them behind.
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post #89 of 246 Old 01-03-2015, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Controlled directivity in the vertical is actually is preferred and what you want in the home theater environment. For background music when lounging or working around the house, and Waveguide/MTM combo may not be ideal. But for home theater its exactly what you want and need. When I talking vertical dispersion rolloff its when I'm standing walking around. When stayed your fine even with stadium seating. In no circumstance should you think of taking a max and laying it on its side. That takes proper design.
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post #90 of 246 Old 01-03-2015, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by op-center View Post
Coolrda, do you have more details posted somewhere about how you built/designed your baffle/screen wall? The Fusion Max looks like it was purposefully designed for this specific application far more so than as a free standing speaker.

My wife does not like the look of the SEOS speakers but surprisingly she really likes the idea of a screen wall so I may have found a way to get set in my theater after all if I can build a decent screen wall to hide them behind.
I will post some details in the next few days.
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