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post #91 of 246 Old 01-03-2015, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by LitoGeorge View Post
Hi CoolRDA

Noob here. But Ive been reading this thread (several times) and many others in preparing for a HT system par excellence.

Currently: XPA-5, Onkyo 818, Ascend Acoustics 340SE's (LRC) and HTM200SE's for surrounds, HSU VTF 3 Mk4 sub. I find the system incapable of playing even at reference 0DB without getting that "burning smell" come through in a matter of minutes - mostly from the centre channel, and I've played with the Audyssey 32XT at length.


So, I am looking for a better, fuller sound.
.
Ah, the better, fuller sound of a speaker...not cooking?

Playing at reference levels can be difficult. You might be at the max the speakers can take. Playing at reference with little compression and distortion is very hard for most speakers.

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post #92 of 246 Old 01-04-2015, 10:46 AM
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Ah, the better, fuller sound of a speaker...not cooking?

Playing at reference levels can be difficult. You might be at the max the speakers can take. Playing at reference with little compression and distortion is very hard for most speakers.

I didn't know that, thanks. 0DB is loud, but I kinda like it louder when I want it (think: dance party for a short 5 minutes).

CoolRDA, thank you for answering my questions, I have respect for your thread not to muddy it with further questions. Looking forward to your continued experience with the F10Max's
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post #93 of 246 Old 01-04-2015, 05:55 PM
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Here's a list of speakers that can play reference level. Some barely, some with aplomb. "Barely" means they will sound distorted and "loud" in a bad way.
With aplomb means the speakers are loafing along, no distortion, compression, straining, and you won't realize how loud it is. So, for music, keep the playlist shorter and take breaks.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...-speakers.html
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post #94 of 246 Old 01-05-2015, 09:10 AM
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Thanks so much coolrda for taking a chance on these speakers and sharing your build here. It's really appreciated. Also wanted to say how spot on you were with answering questions and discussing the design details. It's like you were reading my mind I really liked how this speaker came together. I remember when I first took measurements I emailed Erich and basically gave him the heads up that this thing was going to click. The XO was just so natural.

Being in a baffle wall, you probably get a little more of the low end than I had planned for other applications, but I generally design flat rather than tilted down, so I'm sure you're getting great results. And it seems to me most people never complain about to much low end

Thanks again and enjoy the speakers. Sorry I haven't popped into this thread until now.
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post #95 of 246 Old 01-05-2015, 09:22 AM
 
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I expect these to get a lot more popular in coming months. Nice design, it's simple- effective, not too expensive... Seems like a totally kick ass speaker to me.
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post #96 of 246 Old 01-05-2015, 12:00 PM
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Thanks again and enjoy the speakers. Sorry I haven't popped into this thread until now.
Hey, welcome back! I've been wondering where you've been for a while.
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post #97 of 246 Old 01-05-2015, 07:42 PM
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Here's a list of speakers that can play reference level.
Thanks Eyleron for this, its appreciated. Funny nuff, my speakers are listed on there. I wonder whats going on. If you are willing to figure it out, I would appreciate a pm. If not, no sweat - I just dont want to detract from a fine thread that is all about the new Fusion 10 Max's!
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post #98 of 246 Old 01-05-2015, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Thanks so much coolrda for taking a chance on these speakers and sharing your build here. It's really appreciated. Also wanted to say how spot on you were with answering questions and discussing the design details. It's like you were reading my mind I really liked how this speaker came together. I remember when I first took measurements I emailed Erich and basically gave him the heads up that this thing was going to click. The XO was just so natural.

Being in a baffle wall, you probably get a little more of the low end than I had planned for other applications, but I generally design flat rather than tilted down, so I'm sure you're getting great results. And it seems to me most people never complain about to much low end

Thanks again and enjoy the speakers. Sorry I haven't popped into this thread until now.
No problem. Good to hear from you. And thank you for designing such a great speaker.
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post #99 of 246 Old 01-06-2015, 08:32 AM
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Hey, welcome back! I've been wondering where you've been for a while.
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No problem. Good to hear from you. And thank you for designing such a great speaker.
Just needed a little break. I'll be around. But I've been doing my current build thread on the diysoundgroup forum.
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post #100 of 246 Old 01-06-2015, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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aka Cinema-10 Max
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post #101 of 246 Old 01-06-2015, 09:54 AM
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Ha, no, not even close. It's just a little WAF thing for my personal use: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...hp?topic=442.0
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post #102 of 246 Old 01-13-2015, 12:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Back for a small update. We let it slip that we watched a movie and everyone, family, friends, neighbors, just happened to drop by to check on us. It's been a fun week. At least one of them brought a pizza. Between DL'ing and watching 4K files(new Fav hobby) and trying to stay caught up on the tons of good threads and builds hear (A losing battle) I managed to snag a graph to post. These speakers have truly come into their own. Sound is extremely smooth and the front stage sounds full and seamless. Because of the power and dynamics of the Max's, the subs sound like an extension of the Max's despite being placed behind the MLP. Even with full range speakers, which the Max's are not, theres always been a disconnect between the mains and the subs when placed this far apart. This was a real quick cal using my very old Onkyo 885 with Audyssey XT(only 3 of 8 positions used).


The graph shows the smooth response. You can see a dip around the crossover freq and the big peak around 40hz, thats mucking things up, due to sub/room/port tune? of Max. Once the front subs are placed I'll address that.

In my review of the Maxs at DIYSG website I stated that the imaging was the best I ever heard from 2 channel. What I meant to say was in a 2.0 movie playback system. Surround effects were imaged out to the sides very effectively. The Max's would do an excellent job for those that only want a 2.1 system, for whatever reason.

Another thing I wanted to reference was the comments concerning the brightness of this speaker along with a number of the SEOS-based speaker systems. They will give the illusion of being bright, as it has been mentioned before, because of the limited LF response. This speaker needs and is designed for use with a sub. Or two. A 2.2 with stereo subs will make this a formidable and potent full range 2CH playback system for music and movies. The frequency charts prove this speaker is extended but rolls off above 10khz.
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post #103 of 246 Old 01-13-2015, 04:38 AM
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Interesting dip between 1-2khz?


This speaker is a strong contender should I decide to ultimately go with a 4.2 (possibly 4.2.4 with Atmos or DTS-X) setup in my new house come July instead of a 5.2 setup given the issues with speaker channel placement with the TV sitting already above a fireplace which would necessitate the TV to be moved even higher up the wall or the CC to be placed above the TV some 8 feet up in the air. Issue with Phantom Center is that the speakers will be about 16 feet apart so that may just be too far!


Still debating between 2 Max 10's, or 2 Seaton Cat 8C's (possibly 3 if I go with a CC), or 3 Alpha Minion MTM's across the front. All would likely be with dual Volt-10's or the new Coaxial 8" designs for rears (can't do surrounds) and my dual subs. Just wondering if I'd get more dynamics from the Max 10 vs the Seaton Cat 8Cs, particularly if I had to go with a phantom center setup. The Max 10 and Cat 8's are the widest I'd want to go with and I can't do more than ~12" of depth for a CC if I go with one.


Curious, do you hear any hiss with the high efficiency Max 10's, and what are you powering them with again?

 

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post #104 of 246 Old 01-13-2015, 07:48 AM
 
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That dip at 1.5khz...
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post #105 of 246 Old 01-13-2015, 08:16 AM
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Tweeter polarity? I'd expect the dip to be wider than that, but it certainly begs the question. It is a reverse polarity design just FYI. In case you missed that.

It's amazing how hard it is to hear a flipped tweeter polarity. The power response stays flat even when wrong.
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post #106 of 246 Old 01-13-2015, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Tweeter polarity? I'd expect the dip to be wider than that, but it certainly begs the question. It is a reverse polarity design just FYI. In case you missed that.

It's amazing how hard it is to hear a flipped tweeter polarity. The power response stays flat even when wrong.
Figured that was because of the crossover. Erich did make a point about the reversed HF polarity to me. The board HF taps have that reverse built in. That is correct I hope. It does look more like a third or fourth order.
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post #107 of 246 Old 01-13-2015, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting dip between 1-2khz?


This speaker is a strong contender should I decide to ultimately go with a 4.2 (possibly 4.2.4 with Atmos or DTS-X) setup in my new house come July instead of a 5.2 setup given the issues with speaker channel placement with the TV sitting already above a fireplace which would necessitate the TV to be moved even higher up the wall or the CC to be placed above the TV some 8 feet up in the air. Issue with Phantom Center is that the speakers will be about 16 feet apart so that may just be too far!


Still debating between 2 Max 10's, or 2 Seaton Cat 8C's (possibly 3 if I go with a CC), or 3 Alpha Minion MTM's across the front. All would likely be with dual Volt-10's or the new Coaxial 8" designs for rears (can't do surrounds) and my dual subs. Just wondering if I'd get more dynamics from the Max 10 vs the Seaton Cat 8Cs, particularly if I had to go with a phantom center setup. The Max 10 and Cat 8's are the widest I'd want to go with and I can't do more than ~12" of depth for a CC if I go with one.


Curious, do you hear any hiss with the high efficiency Max 10's, and what are you powering them with again?
They resolve very well so you may hear more than typical rolled off tweeters. It's relative to the sound level of course. Using Emotiva power so I don't hear amp hiss.
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post #108 of 246 Old 01-13-2015, 10:22 AM
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I haven't seen the board myself. Could be something else.
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post #109 of 246 Old 01-13-2015, 01:55 PM
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I haven't seen the board myself. Could be something else.
I'd bet a dollar that the CD polarity needs to be flipped.
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post #110 of 246 Old 01-14-2015, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't seen the board myself. Could be something else.
Here you go. I've checked and checked before. The board has the HF invert built in.




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post #111 of 246 Old 01-14-2015, 09:56 AM
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The board does have the inverted polarity built in.

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post #112 of 246 Old 01-14-2015, 11:21 AM
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Yup, it looks fine. The real reverse null is much deeper and wider anyways. That looks like a null, but I don't think it is. Could have been the distance from the mic to the couch, or even the audyssey mic to the couch caused a peak that audessey eq'ed out. There's another very slight null at 3khz, which is a multiple of 1.5khz. The rest of the response is very very smooth. Even down in the modal region. So if it is a reflection, it's one that probably doesn't bother you much. The rest is very good.
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post #113 of 246 Old 01-14-2015, 12:20 PM
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I'm curious, is the Audyssey microphone ~2.6" tall?

Were the measurements made with the microphone sitting on the couch or on a mic stand?

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post #114 of 246 Old 01-14-2015, 12:34 PM
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How difficult would it be to reverse the wires on the tweeter ... just for fun ... and remeasure? Assuming it's not an anomaly that is (i.e., if you ran the same measurement again do you get the same dip/null)... seems odd for a null to be that high?

 

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post #115 of 246 Old 01-14-2015, 01:21 PM
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seems odd for a null to be that high?
Not if the couch is nearby. Happens all the time actually.

Here's several speakers measured with the microphone about 2ft from the couch: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post28619113

None of them with an obvious dip, but there's something around 800hz in all of them. Most people put their mic closer to the couch than I did for that comparison, which would move the dip higher in frequency.
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post #116 of 246 Old 01-15-2015, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Not if the couch is nearby. Happens all the time actually.

Here's several speakers measured with the microphone about 2ft from the couch: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post28619113

None of them with an obvious dip, but there's something around 800hz in all of them. Most people put their mic closer to the couch than I did for that comparison, which would move the dip higher in frequency.
I think you nailed it. Never realized a leather chair could have that effect. Mic is less than 6" from chair back so that appears to be it.
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post #117 of 246 Old 01-15-2015, 12:54 AM
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I would have never figured that out You guys are too smart on here.
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post #118 of 246 Old 01-15-2015, 07:12 AM
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I think you can figure that any material that you wouldn't use for speaker grill cloth will cause a reflection at high frequencies at least.
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post #119 of 246 Old 01-15-2015, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Not if the couch is nearby. Happens all the time actually.

Here's several speakers measured with the microphone about 2ft from the couch: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post28619113

None of them with an obvious dip, but there's something around 800hz in all of them. Most people put their mic closer to the couch than I did for that comparison, which would move the dip higher in frequency.
Intersting... I've always just rested my mic on the top of the headrest.... anything in particular I should put over the couch to help or a new place to put the mic?
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post #120 of 246 Old 01-15-2015, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Intersting... I've always just rested my mic on the top of the headrest.... anything in particular I should put over the couch to help or a new place to put the mic?
Leave it the way you listen to it. Even adding bodies to the room changes things. I went back and moved the mic a few inches and the response was different. Its not the speaker. Its the room and furniture.
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