NWCgrad's 10” coaxial collaborative design - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 359 Old 08-07-2015, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
Cable run would be pretty easy with the track for the PJ. Just cannot convince the wife that we need on ceiling speakers in such an open space. When I get a dedicated theater (3 yrs left in navy) I will go full blown 7.2.4 (or whatever is sufficient at the time).
How does that old saying go? Tis better to ask for forgiveness than have a happy wife...something like that.
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post #302 of 359 Old 08-07-2015, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
How does that old saying go? Tis better to ask for forgiveness than have a happy wife...something like that.

Haha I've done that with a few of my dirt bike purchases, that went over really well!....lol
I was begging for forgiveness for a while!....lol
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post #303 of 359 Old 08-08-2015, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
How does that old saying go? Tis better to ask for forgiveness than have a happy wife...something like that.
It is something like that....not sure it is worth the angst for Atmos - the number of discs is limited and the effect is not huge.

The upfiring modules seem to work, but it could all be in my head. I need to measure with REW but am having computer issues. yesterday my main computer wouldn't measure any bass below 50 Hz, I had just upgraded to Win 10 and I am thinking that the speaker output from the computer was not full range. My laptop is full on crap, after two or three measurements the sound card stops working. Probably has some crazy virus from when I ran the navy unit in Cambodia.

Need to buy a dedicated computer for thic stuff.

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post #304 of 359 Old 08-08-2015, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
It is something like that....not sure it is worth the angst for Atmos - the number of discs is limited and the effect is not huge.

The upfiring modules seem to work, but it could all be in my head. I need to measure with REW but am having computer issues. yesterday my main computer wouldn't measure any bass below 50 Hz, I had just upgraded to Win 10 and I am thinking that the speaker output from the computer was not full range. My laptop is full on crap, after two or three measurements the sound card stops working. Probably has some crazy virus from when I ran the navy unit in Cambodia.

Need to buy a dedicated computer for thic stuff.
Oh, I actually mixed up two different sayings.

-Tis better to ask for forgiveness than permission
and
-Happy Wife Happy Life

^Pretty much the polar opposites in their meaning.

Speaking of computer viruses... I read the other day that they may have found a cure/vaccine for Ebola!

You should probably celebrate not having to get deployed in that ***** by treating yourself to...whatever the hell you want....
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post #305 of 359 Old 08-08-2015, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Oh, I actually mixed up two different sayings.

-Tis better to ask for forgiveness than permission
and
-Happy Wife Happy Life

^Pretty much the polar opposites in their meaning.

Speaking of computer viruses... I read the other day that they may have found a cure/vaccine for Ebola!

You should probably celebrate not having to get deployed in that ***** by treating yourself to...whatever the hell you want....

It does look like the Ebola vaccine is working, which is pretty sweet as the disease is freakin horrible.


Thankfully I had my medical emergency while doing the deployment workup and not over in the *****...probably would have not made it back.


I have so many upgrades I need to make, computer, another pair of surrounds, another amp or four...it just never ends.

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post #306 of 359 Old 08-09-2015, 06:07 AM
 
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I wish someone could develop a vaccine for bad audio.
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post #307 of 359 Old 08-09-2015, 06:09 AM
 
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Is the PC upgrade for the audio system or just for a PC in the house ?
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post #308 of 359 Old 08-09-2015, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I am wanting a PC just for my audio stuff, not an HTPC as I don't plan to rip a lot of blu rays due to the level of effort. Just want a good PC for running REW, the plug in for miniDSP, and what not. Do not want to be using a PC as a media server due to the level of fuss and maintenance required. Computers and I do not get along, they are only a means to an end.

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post #309 of 359 Old 08-21-2015, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Trying to finalize my speaker stand design. Lots of decisions to be made before wood starts to get cut.


Height of the stands (will eventually make 4, want all surrounds at the same height). Current stand height is 30" for the surround (side speakers), which puts the center of the coaxial driver at 40.75" (4" above my seated/reclined ear height). Surround back speakers are currently significantly higher.


Using my laser protractor (thanks @asarose247) I calculated the following angles from the back of my recliner (when reclined):


30 degrees: 92" (Surround Right [SR]), 87" (Surround Left [SL]), 72.5" (Surround Back Right [SBR]), 79" (Surround Back Left [SBL])


20 degrees: 72" (SR), 69.5" (SL), 63.75" (SBR), 65.5" (SBL)


10 degrees: 55" (SR), 54.5" (SL), 50" (SBR), 50.25" (SBL)


0 degrees: 39" (SR), 40.5" (SL), 36.5" (SBR), 37.5" (SBL)


Speaker measurements (from @mtg90):



Recap of room:




Any recommendations for optimal height?
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post #310 of 359 Old 08-21-2015, 10:03 AM
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I like your current side surround height as just about perfect. Saves you some time on building out new ones too Just stick with that!

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post #311 of 359 Old 08-21-2015, 10:29 AM
 
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Height for sides and backs?

I would try to keep it ear level or just a bit above. If you can do just over ear height I think you'll be good. You are balancing separation between the overheads, the sides and the backs. If they are too close, not good. But with limited ceiling height you options are limited. If you put them too low you run into other issues.

Human heads diffract sound so if you had a multi seat row like say 4 chairs you'd be in trouble. But you have basically a sweet spot it seems, so if that is the only priority you can get a great effect, albeit it limited to that one place.

When you have SPL and seat to seat variation and localization of the surrounds and overheads one trick is to make them farther away, this helps. Moving them higher sometimes is used that way, originally with 7.1. That measurement you posted looks ok 0-30 degrees so I would try to stay inside that, without being totally on axis to avoid unwanted localization. To some degree your room is what it is, so practicality probably will rule the day.

The idea of moving them forward is to fill in the gap between the front and sides, once back speakers were added. The idea of wides was basically the same thing, but with some emphasis on a bigger stereo image ability too. You have no wides, so it might be worth playing with the sides slightly in front of you, versus slightly behind. It could be interesting trial and error event.

I don't honestly see a huge problem with any of how you can/would do it, you seem to have a decent grasp on the matter and the limitations you face are not by choice so there is no point beating that horse if it's already dead. You have it set up like that now? how does it sound ?
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post #312 of 359 Old 08-21-2015, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I like your current side surround height as just about perfect. Saves you some time on building out new ones too Just stick with that!

I like the height of my current, but they are not the most stable. Afraid that at some point my rambunctious 12 yr old will knock an exposed speaker off the stand.

Quote:
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Height for sides and backs?

I would try to keep it ear level or just a bit above. If you can do just over ear height I think you'll be good. You are balancing separation between the overheads, the sides and the backs. If they are too close, not good. But with limited ceiling height you options are limited. If you put them too low you run into other issues.

Human heads diffract sound so if you had a multi seat row like say 4 chairs you'd be in trouble. But you have basically a sweet spot it seems, so if that is the only priority you can get a great effect, albeit it limited to that one place.

When you have SPL and seat to seat variation and localization of the surrounds and overheads one trick is to make them farther away, this helps. Moving them higher sometimes is used that way, originally with 7.1. That measurement you posted looks ok 0-30 degrees so I would try to stay inside that, without being totally on axis to avoid unwanted localization. To some degree your room is what it is, so practicality probably will rule the day.

The idea of moving them forward is to fill in the gap between the front and sides, once back speakers were added. The idea of wides was basically the same thing, but with some emphasis on a bigger stereo image ability too. You have no wides, so it might be worth playing with the sides slightly in front of you, versus slightly behind. It could be interesting trial and error event.

I don't honestly see a huge problem with any of how you can/would do it, you seem to have a decent grasp on the matter and the limitations you face are not by choice so there is no point beating that horse if it's already dead. You have it set up like that now? how does it sound ?

Only really worried about the one seat. Do want to not fire surround speaker directly into the ear of my daughter (to the left) or my wife (to the right).


They sould pretty good right now, but always looking for better.
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post #313 of 359 Old 08-22-2015, 06:27 AM
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Hope this makes sense
I am finally doing this!

I think there where it says "This is the wire that connects to the CD+" (top left corner) it should be CD- correct or not?

Building a 9.1.6 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [Surrounds] • Volt 10 altered and added passive radiators [Tops] • LLT 550 liter Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • Marantz MM8003 [2] • NU6000 • XMC-1 [RMC-1 with Dirac Unison wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU
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post #314 of 359 Old 08-22-2015, 02:44 PM
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Never mind, I have finished the first speaker! I reversed the +/- indicated on the above photo. No explosion so I guess I was right.



I have connected it to my wife's home office mini iPod receiver from Yamaha. Only 25 Watt! The room is bedroom sized so it's plenty loud. I use 2 passive radiators in a 65 liter box with it so bass is strong. Tweeter is the 16 ohm version.

The other one maybe next weekend if I get the box ready during the week.

A big thank you for everybody who gave advise!
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Building a 9.1.6 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [Surrounds] • Volt 10 altered and added passive radiators [Tops] • LLT 550 liter Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • Marantz MM8003 [2] • NU6000 • XMC-1 [RMC-1 with Dirac Unison wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU
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post #315 of 359 Old 08-22-2015, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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That design looks nice! Looks like surrounds that @popalock would like.
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post #316 of 359 Old 08-23-2015, 07:47 AM
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That design looks nice! Looks like surrounds that @popalock would like.
Speaking of... I need to update my build thread.
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post #317 of 359 Old 08-23-2015, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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popalock Oh yeah! Can't wait to hear these babies when you get back to NoVA!
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post #318 of 359 Old 09-05-2015, 05:17 AM
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Hey guys,

Has anyone made or thought about making a sealed box for these coax drivers? From what I've been reading I think they would pair better with subs, mainly a smoother crossover point.

Also, would a sealed box be smaller (as with subs?), and would it need a different crossover than a ported design?

Thanks for answering my noob questions

And these coaxials are something else. Ever since finding them, they've taken me down the rabbit hole...
Did you ever build a sealed box for these drivers? I'm thinking something similar with a volume of around 0.75ft3 (7" x 16" x 14" or thereabouts) and would love to know if these XO's worked for you.

In my case I'm not sure whether to go with the 6", 8" or 10" as one of my surround speakers needs to be within 3ft of the listening position.
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post #319 of 359 Old 09-05-2015, 07:23 AM
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I don't think you need to worry about having a surround within 3 feet. Since the tweeter is centered in the woofer, it blends immediately. The 10" could result in a lower crossover to the subs vs the 8" or 6", I reckon.

As for going sealed. I don't see why not as this would be the same as a sealed Volt. I think 1 cu ft is recommended for the 10". Maybe use the 8" if you need a smaller box.
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post #320 of 359 Old 09-10-2015, 12:11 AM
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I've actually picked up two sets of 12CX and ASD1001 very cheaply off eBay so I'm going to try build a couple of speakers with those. Hopefully they might be good enough for fronts or else I'll have a massive pair of surrounds!

Can anyone guess how they XO for the PSD:2013S might work with the ASD1001? I was planning to buy the Eminence PXB2:2K5CX to do me for now (which itself is a generic XO) so I'm wondering if I take a chance on this XO would it's work almost as well (while neither are optimal). If I think the 12CX's might work as fronts I'd considered swapping out the ASD1001 for the PSD2013S-8 if the benefit was good enough. Thinking of around a 1.5ft3 cabinet.
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post #321 of 359 Old 09-10-2015, 07:32 AM
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I've actually picked up two sets of 12CX and ASD1001 very cheaply off eBay so I'm going to try build a couple of speakers with those. Hopefully they might be good enough for fronts or else I'll have a massive pair of surrounds!

Can anyone guess how they XO for the PSD:2013S might work with the ASD1001? I was planning to buy the Eminence PXB2:2K5CX to do me for now (which itself is a generic XO) so I'm wondering if I take a chance on this XO would it's work almost as well (while neither are optimal). If I think the 12CX's might work as fronts I'd considered swapping out the ASD1001 for the PSD2013S-8 if the benefit was good enough. Thinking of around a 1.5ft3 cabinet.
That generic XO will get you there a little, but not much. I will look to see which ones I have and see if any interest you.

On that note, I have 4 10cx's two selenium d220ti's, and the custom XO's to make them play nicely together. Also 4 total apt-50 super tweets and 4 different generic XO boards. If anyone is interested in any of this stuff, shoot me a PM. Ill make a sold deal on it all.

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post #322 of 359 Old 09-17-2015, 03:53 PM
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So I'm back with more questions and hopefully some of the great contributors to this thread can help me out. I've read multiple threads at this stage in relation to using the Eminence coaxials. My room is 14ft * 22ft.

My current thinking is that I want to build 7 of these speakers in total: 3 for L/C/R and 4 for surrounds. I already have Monitor Audio CT265-IDC's in the ceiling so not changing those out just yet.

The Surrounds
For the surrounds the aim is to go sealed and as physically small as possible which probably means the 8CX. I'm happy to crossover at 120hz and let the sub pick up the duties from there. @mtg90 - you mentioned over on the DIYSG forum (http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...hp?topic=486.0) that the 8CX can work in a 0.2ft3 or a 0.3ft3 box. How do you think this XO you designed for the PSD2013S-8 + 10CX would work for the same CD and the 8cx? Any recommended modifications?

If it wouldn't at all, how do you think this XO would work in the small 14x14x7 box you built (http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...4462#msg4462)? Or even if I made the box shallower by cutting a hole in the back so the CD can fit through (and maybe with a sealed aluminium plate covering it).

The Fronts
For the fronts I'm thinking of going bigger and using my 12CX's in probably a sealed 1.5ft3 or 2ft3 cabinet. @Billy Boden - I believe your design is in a 2ft3 cabinet and ported but I don't think it makes a huge difference to go sealed instead. I know this is a tough question to answer, but would you have any idea what modifications I might need to make to your XO design to use the 12CX rather than the 10CX?

I did mention above that I might try the stock Eminence XO's but I really don't want to waste money if I can avoid it at all.

Appreciate the effort you guys have gone to. Some fantastic information in this thread and the similar one over on diyaudio.
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post #323 of 359 Old 11-19-2015, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I finally completed (well at least the build) the stands for the rear surround speakers. All that remains is the Duratex and adding the 50 lbs of sand.






Using an Oatey 3 Dia PVC Test Plug Fitting from Lowes to seal where the sand is added to the stand (idea from Zilch who used them to plug ports in JBL speakers). The upper section of the stand is stuffed with R-13 insulation.


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post #324 of 359 Old 04-24-2016, 11:05 AM
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I decided to build a pair of these for surrounds in slanted boxes similar in size to the Volt 10.



I've got the boxes built and painted so I am now working on the crossover. I've never assembled a crossover from a schematic so it is all new to me. I chose Mtg90's crossover because it uses fewer parts and is a little less money. So I started with the schematic:



I used the nodal analysis method recommended by Curt Campbell to interpret the schematic and determine the connections. http://speakerdesignworks.com/nodal_analysis.html

Then I drew the layout using paint and made the connection points (nodes) in blue.


Any corrections or suggestions before I start trying to physically build these would be appreciated.
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post #325 of 359 Old 10-30-2016, 09:33 AM
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It's been awhile, but I would like to add to my last post about building the crossover. It took me a while to figure it out so it might help someone else. I started by using some Wago Lever nuts to assemble the crossover using the layout and nodes in the previous diagram.



My initial plan was to use the lever nuts for testing but in the end, I hot glued them to the board and velcroed the board into the bottom of the box. The lever nuts grip like crazy and seem up to the task. They work for a wide range of wire sizes so using the components directly into the nuts made things very simple. I had to use one jumper to join two lever nuts where a node had more than 5 connections.



I used Restore 4x as the paint. I could not be happier with the end result. As side surrounds, these work extremely well. A very significant improvement over the Andrew Jones Pioneer SP-BS21 bookshelves I was using previously. Much better for movies with loud surround passages.
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post #326 of 359 Old 10-30-2016, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Great idea! I may order some of those for a passive XO I am currently building.

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post #327 of 359 Old 10-30-2016, 06:37 PM
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Great idea! I may order some of those for a passive XO I am currently building.
I've used them now for a couple of projects including wiring my 8 x 15" subs, and line arrays with 8 x 8" Dayton RS-225 per side. Menards stocks them if you have one in your area. I don't think either Home Depot or Lowes stocks them. Easy to order online though. I don't do much home electrical wiring but these are a huge improvement over standard wire nuts. A little expensive if you need a lot of them. I think they have a new one that is smaller and transparent so you can see that the wire is in far enough.
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post #328 of 359 Old 10-31-2016, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I've used them now for a couple of projects including wiring my 8 x 15" subs, and line arrays with 8 x 8" Dayton RS-225 per side. Menards stocks them if you have one in your area. I don't think either Home Depot or Lowes stocks them. Easy to order online though. I don't do much home electrical wiring but these are a huge improvement over standard wire nuts. A little expensive if you need a lot of them. I think they have a new one that is smaller and transparent so you can see that the wire is in far enough.

Trying to look at the pictures to see how to implement them. Are all the wires that are plugged into the unit connected to each other? Is there a connector for a wire outputting the connected components?


I guess I need to google the manual and read up on them.

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post #329 of 359 Old 10-31-2016, 11:20 AM
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Trying to look at the pictures to see how to implement them. Are all the wires that are plugged into the unit connected to each other? Is there a connector for a wire outputting the connected components?


I guess I need to google the manual and read up on them.
Yes, all the wires plugged in are connected within a lever nut. Use any of the connections for an outgoing connection. If you look at my nodes diagram, you can see that there are six nodes. You'll have to read Curt Campbell's link to understand how to convert from the schematic to the node diagram. All the components, the drivers, and the amplifier connect to one of the six nodes. So I just used a lever nut to connect the wires at each node. Most had more than 3 connections so I used a 5 connection nut. The lever nuts come in 2, 3, or 5 connections. One big advantage over regular wire nuts is that you can remove or add a wire without taking the whole thing apart. Also, the grip is very secure and you can mix different size wires without a problem. You do need a little bit of space in front of the opening to insert the wire. So it is easier to assemble all the connections if possible before gluing them down. I believe the ground had more than 5 connections so I used two 5 wire nuts with a jumper in between to effectively give me an 8 connector nut (2 connections used up by the jumper). I also tried to maintain adequate spacing and orientation between inductors. I think I did a better job keeping the board neat on the second crossover but I didn't get a picture of it.

Quote:
UL Listed, touch-proof LEVER-NUTS® carry ratings up to 600 V, 20 A max current capacity and 105°C insulating material temperature. CAGE CLAMP® Compact Spring Pressure ensures maintenance-free, vibration-resistant connections. Every model, from 2–5 conductors, accommodates solid and stranded conductors AWG 12–28 (one conductor/pole) in one unit.
http://www.wago.us/wago/press/press-...etail-1122.jsp
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post #330 of 359 Old 10-31-2016, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, I ordered a bunch of them from Amazon. I am sure I will find additional used for them. Main purpose will be for making an L-pad to reduce the HF and MY driver sensitivities to that of the OF driver (99 dB/1W/M).

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