Dynamic EQ in Inuke DSP is Awesome! - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Dynamic EQ in Inuke DSP is Awesome!

I've always liked Audyssey's dynamic eq but the inability to fine tune it kept me from using it for anything other than BR/DVD due to it boosting too high in the frequency range and making my sub sound boomy.

I had the house to myself for a few hours so out came the mic and REW.

I previously had been boosting the bottom end with PEQ but at loud levels I was clipping during some low frequency scenes. But I love the boost for lower levels. Dynamic eq can fix this problem.

I started with 10db at 20hz with a q of 1 and -30 threshold. That didn't cut enough at higher volume and seemed to boost the rumble too much. It made the best REW graphs but my ears didn't like it and I was still clipping at reference. After about 30 different tests I ended up with 8db at 25hz with a q of 1 and a -40 threshold. And my setup has never sounded so good. I ran some tests with REW and I'm now at max spl between ~17-30hz from -10 to reference. This lets me use more of the available spl above 30hz without pushing the under 30hz into clipping.

If you've got some spare time and a mic I'd recommend trying it out. I know it's not discussed much here but it is certainly working for me.

Last edited by Samps; 02-22-2015 at 03:13 PM. Reason: Spelling
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post #2 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
I've always liked Audyssey's dynamic eq but the inability to fine tune it kept me from using it for anything other than BR/DVD due to it boosting to high in the frequency range and making my sub sound boomy.

I had the house to myself for a few hours so out came the mic and REW.

I previously had been boosting the bottom end with PEQ but at loud levels I was clipping during some low frequency scenes. But I love the boost for lower levels. Dynamic eq can fix this problem.

I started with 10db at 20hz with a q of 1 and -30 threshold. That didn't cut enough at higher volume and seemed to boost the rumble too much. It made the best REW graphs but my ears didn't like it and I was still clipping at reference. After about 30 different tests I ended up with 8db at 25hz with a q of 1 and a -40 threshold. And my setup has never sounded so good. I ran some tests with REW and I'm now at max spl between ~17-30hz from -10 to reference. This lets me use more of the available spl above 30hz without pushing the under 30hz into clipping.

If you've got some spare time and a mic I'd recommend trying it out. I know it's not discussed much here but it is certainly working for me.
Samps,
I've always wanted someone to do a how to thread on this . can you explain a bit more. Do you have dynamic eq as well as regular peq boost or does it replace it ? How does the threshold effect things. I'd love to refer people here .

Isn't 8dbs of boost more taxing on amp for clipping ? I know I'm wrong here but don't know why ?

Any pics make it easier.
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post #3 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I let audyssey do the heavy lifting for eq. I then add a few small tweaks with the inuke PEQ. This gives me my baseline response. Then I add the dynamic eq. There are two bands available. I'm only using one currently but I did experiment with using both. The threshold is exactly like the reference level offset in audyssey. It adjust how much and at what volume the dynamic eq kicks in. At -60 threshold dynamic eq does very little, at 0 it will boost/cut close to the same at all volumes. Everywhere in between it will shift the boosts range. The db and q values work just like PEQ. So with my current settings I get the full 8db of boost at -40 on the inuke output. At 0 on the inuke output I get no boost. It gradually adds boost as the output level goes down. I can try to add some pics later. Need to do some grocery shopping.

The 8db is more taxing than no boost but here's how I look at it. My sub is set to max at -10. Dynamic eq lets the sub stay there while the mains continue to increase. Allowing you to use the subs full potential across as wide a range as you want.

Edit: flipped threshold values.

Last edited by Samps; 02-22-2015 at 03:21 PM. Reason: Removed the suggestion that this could also be used as additional bands of PEQ. Further investigatin shows it won't work.
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post #4 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 12:33 PM
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This helps. Get some good cheese 😎
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post #5 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 12:41 PM
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Just playing with my settings. First category is type. Do you use bp ?
Do you leave a time and rtime , and ratio at stock values ?

Will look later for response. 😎
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post #6 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
I've always wanted someone to do a how to thread on this . can you explain a bit more.
There is some existing information already. One thread would be good though.

If I recall correctly I've already explained DEQ in a fair bit of detail in a number of threads, just do a search for DEQ and my name, and also LTD02...

Here is some from years ago:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...subwoofer.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post25940266
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post26292025
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post26935225

One of the more detailed ones back in 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by beastaudio
"what is the difference between the gv-eq, deq, peq, Dynamics Processing:Compressor/Expander/Limiter?"

Let's start with Limiters because that is the easiest one. Basically above a given input signal the output will not go higher; it is basically a brickwall. If it is chopping the heads off the peaks like that you can imagine the problem that causes distortion-wise. So...

This leads nicely into the Dynamics processor; a compressor allows you to define how early and aggressively the device will attack the peaks before the limiter point is reached and engages; softening, smoothing and slowing the blow, rather than an abrupt dead-stop at full output clip and/or full excursion.

So obviously... it is better to limit than to bottom out your subwoofer and destroy it. So you set that value to just under max excursion, given a 0db Ref sine-sweep input. Guaranteeing no bottoming, and using the compressor to ease into the mechanical limits of the thing.

Note: I haven't tested it but I would hope that Behringer implemented it as a proper soft-limiter with some input gain servo intelligence behind it rather than a pure brickwall. (I'm curious enough to go forth and test that now )

Behringer's implementation of a "Dynamics Expander", is actually a noisegate. Basically, below a given input level, the signal will not be outputted.

Ok so far all the above was applied on the full signal bandwidth (DC to nyquist).

So that leads nicely into the EQ bits.
Now before we go any further you have to understand the components that define how EQ's operate.
1) Input Signal Level (in db) (aka Threshold) (dynamics only)
2) Output Gain (in db) (the positive or negative amount you desire)
3) Aggressiveness (X db Input for Y db Output) (aka Ratio) (dynamics only)
4) Knee (i.e the Aggressiveness nearest the Threshold value) (dynamics only)

and Last but not least:
5) Center Frequency (in Hz) (aka CF) (i.e the Frequency you care about)
6) Bandwidth (in octaves) (aka BW or QF) (i.e the Frequency range +-3db slope relative to the CF to which EQ will also be affected.)

Ok let's continue...

Let's start with Static EQ, that is the easiest.
It is basically a slider-bar style EQ, it only lets you adjust one thing, the Output Gain. Not very useful, unless your hard up.
Everything else about it is fixed: fixed CF, fixed BW; and no Threshold at all.
(For this reason, those style devices are usually much cheaper.)

Next step up is the GV-EQ, it allows that and BW adjustment, and for this reason is usually digital-domain only from this point onward, and done on a computer screen.

Next step up is PEQ, it allows that and user selectable CF adjustment.

Next step up is DEQ, it allows all 6 adjustables.
DEQ, as you probably guessed, is basically a user selectable frequency-based and level-based compressor/expander(a true gain expander FYI, not a noisegate).

The next step up is fully-auto EQ, which involves a microphone; computer does everything for you, but only when it is on the config mode and playing sweeps. (audyssey)

The next step up is semi-auto EQ, allows you to define a target graph. (Dirac etc)

The next step up is RTA-EQ/FBD, basically auto-EQ, but is always-on, actively listening to the in-room response and making corrections to give the flattest average response and does echo cancellation.

Have I fully cooked your noggin yet?

Last edited by BassThatHz; 02-22-2015 at 01:46 PM.
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post #7 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 01:28 PM
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This product will do RTA-EQ (with a UMIK-1?) the only one I know of, I've used the 2001 version of it with limited success (before I had a hardware DSP with DEQ built-in), that in combination with JRiver's volume-normalizer might be interesting...
IMO I don't think computers are smart enough to make good use of it though. Sort of a waste of time. If you want your sound to always taste like room-temp porridge then RTAEQ + volume-normalization might be good. Thought I'd mention it regardless though... hehe
http://www.pas-products.com/eqstudio.html

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post #8 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 01:36 PM
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Samp just explained it in a way that made sense for me. I don't see a lot of people using dynamic so maybe this will help some. I knew what it was but I hadn't seen anyone say I tried this and it did this. Then changed this and it made this sound.

Often I find people get very technical. I guess I like things dumbed down a bit. I'm a simple guy
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post #9 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Just playing with my settings. First category is type. Do you use bp ?
Do you leave a time and rtime , and ratio at stock values ?

Will look later for response. 😎



I'm leaving the attack, release, and ratio stock for now until I figure out what they do and how to test what they do. The category/type I'm using the BP, which is the equivalent of PEQ. The other options are a high shelf and low shelf at 6 and 12 db per octave. I would imagine those could also be useful in certain situations.

Something I thought of while dodging the spandex beauties at wallyworld was how to use both bands of dynamic eq in tandem to not only boost low frequency content at low volume but to also cut the low content above a certain level. I imagine if I fiddled with the settings a bit I could have gradually decreasing boost up to a certain level then have the second band of dynamic eq start to cut the lows the higher the volume gets. My mains should now be able to handle all I can throw at them. I'm thinking it would be cool to be able to just turn up the volume as loud as I want and not worry about the sub/s and still be able to get good lows at normal listening levels. Previously I had to tame down the lows so that they could withstand a brief trip up above reference. I hate constantly going into menus to switch the sub level, and when other people are holding the remote things can get interesting. With enough time and tweaking it might be possible to have the sub/s get to max spl around -10 then stay there up until the volume is maxed out. Using only the single band still takes me into clipping above reference.
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post #10 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 03:21 PM
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I thought the same. I want 20 to 25hz louder at minus 20 to minus 30. At reference to -10 I want less of 20hz. Right now at reference 20hz sounds like my house is going to blow up.
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post #11 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is an example of 15db of boost applied at 148.3hz with a Q of 1. I picked that frequency because it's easier to see the whole boost area. These three are with the minimum threshold, middle threshold, and max threshold. You can see how it changes where and by how much the boost is applied.


Minimum Boost -60db threshold


Middle Boost -30db threshold


Max Boost 0db threshold
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post #12 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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The ratio setting changes the increments of change between the -50db and 0db levels. The boost will be very close to the same at -50 and 0 with any of the ratio settings. What changes is the amount of each step at -40, -30, -20, and -10. The 1:10 setting keeps more boost at -40 and then cuts it down abruptly, while the 1:2 setting has a more gradual taper.
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post #13 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 04:14 PM
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Here is something I'd like to highlight (true for our application of DEQ at least):
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I wouldn't recommend using a threshold above -10db, as it basically converts it into a PEQ at that point.

The whole point of DEQ is to prevent boosting from clipping the amp, unlike a PEQ that keeps boosting and boosting to clipping... and beyond.
The other thing it is used for, is variable boosting/cutting as LTD02 spoke to.

A threshold above -10db basically negates both efforts (too wide a range and doesn't stop at clipping), thus bad!

A proper DEQ system would allow for an upper and lower threshold to be placed, in addition to just the ratio, then it would be really dynamic and flexible (a range), too bad nobody makes them that way!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
your the only one who seems to use deq. Why don't u put together a tutorial on how to use it for the average Guy .
Before Samps, carp was the only other AVR'er that I recall ever mentioning that they use it, specifically.
Once you understand PEQ... DEQ isn't much harder.

I've been using DEQ for tweeters and subs for 7 years now to prevent bass amp clipping and ensuring the tweeter highs don't bite my head off at higher SPL's (an automatic Fletcher-Munson curve compensator of-sorts...)
But I've always been eccentric, arcane, ruminative, psychical, fervid and aberrant. Not really a divergent/misfit... that would be a girly-movie oversimplification. hehe

You see, ears are insensitive to low frequencies and sensitive to high frequencies, so DEQ helps solve that issue...
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Last edited by BassThatHz; 02-22-2015 at 04:23 PM.
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post #14 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 05:16 PM
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and if you go like this... will the inuke break?


never google google, you'll break the internet!


I knew it


I'm so divergent that I broke their divergent calculator because there is actually a 6th Faction (i.e Factionless), I wouldn't be any of those 6.
I would have escaped their dystopian compound altogether, well before judgement day!!!
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post #15 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 05:22 PM
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I added 3db dynamic at 25hz and minus 32. Then added minus 2db at 20hz and -15dbs.
For my nearfield I added 3dbs at 75hz at minus 40 . gives me a. Little thump at lower volume.

I will keep playing around with it.

Thanks guys 👽
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post #16 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 06:46 PM
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Man, I wish I understood what's going on here.
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post #17 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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atabea, if you feel like telling what part of this is confusing you, I'll try to explain it the best I can. If you've used dynamic eq in your avr, this is the same thing with the added benefit of adjustment.

I don't know what would happen if you tried to use the dynamic eq in the avr along with the inuke dynamic eq. Getting the dynamics of the two to work linearly together could be tricky.
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post #18 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 07:17 PM
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I'm loving this dynamic 💪💪💪💪
Great for watching tv at say minus 25 to 30. I've got low end and midbass boosted . bass is better but not over the top. Just for reference most bass notes don't even get a light on the inuke. Or one light at most . turning up overall bass doesn't work cuz then 35 to 50hz is too strong.

I cranked it and house not rattling as bad at -5. No clipping as usual.
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post #19 of 22 Old 02-22-2015, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Welcome aboard Donny! The ability to only have the dynamic boost at a chosen frequency is what makes this so useful. My room has a nasty boomy range around 60hz. So any time I try raising the sub level I get the 60hz boom. Now I can get the fun low stuff without the boom.
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post #20 of 22 Old 06-09-2015, 12:36 PM
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Pictures may help, for anyone still confused.

This is the AVR at -30, with DEQ (which will stay at +6dB @ 20Hz Q=0.5) threshold at 0 and -20 (which overlap in all these examples), -60 and off:



AVR at -25:



AVR at -20:



threshold at 0 or 20 and AVR volume -20, -25, -30:



As mentioned, changing the ratio doesn't seem to affect much (at this volume, anyway).

Great stuff, Samps. Thanks for bringing it up.

Michael
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post #21 of 22 Old 06-09-2015, 01:42 PM
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thanks for this

makes me chuckle to see AVS list me as advanced or special or whatever.
but i'll re-read it and see what comes of it

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post #22 of 22 Old 06-09-2015, 02:17 PM
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Just play with it, as you would any filter.
Though you may want to set the Limit filter first.
Yes, in case you missed it, I just lost a sub to Interstellar.
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