Gjhallerhorn v2 or Submaximus for pair of Uxl's - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 248 Old 05-12-2015, 05:00 PM
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here is the um18 again using ricci's measurements for t/s parameters.
it's not that bad. if the horn were designed around the driver, the response could be made to look a little more like the uxl response in light gray, which is a little bit smoother and a little bit higher output. that's all i was referring to. if it needs a little eq, so what, so does the room. :-) we don't want to lose the forest for the trees though. two of these are going to be up around 130db 20hz-100hz and...really... :-)




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post #62 of 248 Old 06-29-2016, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post








- the internal panels are 24" wide (slightly less from rip cutting won't matter)


- the "braces/brackets" showing the measurements are for the internal air space.


- good bracing is required.


- i'm not sure if the black diagonal deflector at 14/15 actually does anything other than serve as a brace.


- side panels are 36" x 80". best practice would be to draw the panel layout onto a side piece.


- the measurements will vary by a slight amount depending on the precise thickness of the wood panels ("three quarter inch plywood" in many cases is 23/32). that won't affect performance in any way, just be aware of it where you want the panels to line up just right (on the outside of the cab for example).


- try to get measurement 1 as close as possible to 3.23 inches. that measurement sets the "compression ratio", which for this horn is actually pretty low, so there is actually some wiggle room there. but still, if only one measurement on the entire horn is 'perfect', that should be it.


- a removable panel could be cut in the side for access to the driver if that is desired.


- this aspect of the design process actually required the most time/work. if somebody could double check these measurements, i'd appreciate it.
So has there been anyone actually build this ? I'm finally in a position i could fit a pair of these nearfield behind my couch.
@Waterboy77
You got any interest in taking on a late summer/fall project?
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post #63 of 248 Old 06-29-2016, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattykidd View Post
So has there been anyone actually build this ? I'm finally in a position i could fit a pair of these nearfield behind my couch.
@Waterboy77
You got any interest in taking on a late summer/fall project?

You are one crazy SOB..... HELLZZ YA..... lets do it
Still got to clean up all the saw dust from our last builds.... what was it 10 sheets of 3/4" MDF to make 11 boxes for you and a messily 2 frankenboxes for me LOL

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post #64 of 248 Old 06-29-2016, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattykidd View Post
So has there been anyone actually build this ? I'm finally in a position i could fit a pair of these nearfield behind my couch.

not that I am aware of.

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post #65 of 248 Old 06-29-2016, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
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not that I am aware of.
Is this still "recommended" for a pair of uxl's?
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post #66 of 248 Old 06-29-2016, 07:35 PM
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Who here plays Destiny and had a Gjallarhorn drop year 1?


For those who don't know. It was/is the best heavy weapon ever in Destiny The Game.

References for others:

http://destiny.wikia.com/wiki/Gjallarhorn_(Year_1)

Also appropriately named tapped horn as it delivers quite a bang!
</carryOn>
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post #67 of 248 Old 06-29-2016, 08:58 PM
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Submaximus v3 uxl

i've copied the important information into this post so that it is all in one place. if i left anything out, please let me know and i will add it. thanks...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattykidd View Post
Is this still "recommended" for a pair of uxl's?
only if you need more than 130db output at 20hz in your home.

the compression ratio was made low (only 2:1; most horns are 3 or higher), so it is friendly to the driver.

here is max output with 2kw power, 30mm xmax, 2pi space, 1 horn. red is where the driver is running out excursion and black is where it is running out of power. rough estimates are that it would be equal to about 2 ported cabs (double drivers and double power) tuned to around 20hz and equal to about 3 cabs (triple drivers and power) at the upper end of the bass.





the model has the motor detuned significantly because of the inductance effects (and the cab was modified from the original for that reason). the driver may not need quite that much detuning, but it shows that the horn will have a great response even if the inductance effect significantly limit the effective motor strength. de-tuning the motor of high inductance drivers for horns was given an extensive treatment in a paper by diyspeakerguy. a search should pull up his post and the paper that several of us contributed to on the topic. bottom line, i think that we have a pretty close model here. my guess is that room effects are going to have a much greater impact than the margin of error in the model at this point.

also, be careful with this much output, as it can damage hard drives and other equipment that is sensitive to vibration damage.

the simulation uses 80 volts. the re of the driver is 3.2 ohms, so that would translate to 2000 "watts".




it was brought to my attention that the current version of hornresp has an option for modeling large voice coil drivers (such as the uxl).

this is the frequency response with the large voice coil simulation option selected. it is substantially similar to my 'manual adjustment' of the driver parameters.





other drivers may work. we would need to take a look at them one by one.


this is the UM18 with data-bass (ricci) measured t/s parameters and the hornresp default de-tuning adjustment. looks like the driver will work well. it seems that the drivers with relatively high moving mass end up with more 'chopiness' on upper end of the bass. in return, they provide more output with their greater excursion capability. this is the same 80v input, which with the um's re at 4.1 ohms is about 1560 "watts". excursion above the low corner (which is around 22hz) is only 22mm, so there is even more output in the tank if one wanted to hit it with more power. going up to 100v (max output from a channel of an inuke 6000 or a bridged 3000) still doesn't exceed xmax above the low corner and output is about 2db higher across the board. that would technically be about 2400 "watts" into the driver, so I'm not sure if that isn't a little high for the um for extended duration playback.





here is a comparo of the UXL (gray) and the UM18 (black) with 2000 "watts" power into each (80v and 90.55v respectively) using my back of the envelope method for detuning the drivers. the uxl appears to perform a little better, but it is also quite a bit more expensive.











driver displacement minimum is around 22hz in model. in practice, it will probably be a hair lower. a protective high pass around 20hz is necessary when running with high power, 3rd order at 20hz or so would be a good starting point.







25.5" wide x 36" deep x 80" tall



25.5" inches wide, so all center panels are ~24" width--cut sheet friendly.
height was increased until horn length and rear chamber fit model.
driver de-tune is guess, so there may be "better guesses".
compression ratio was kept very low, shouldn't be much risk of damaging driver (high pass required obviously)
man scaled to 6' tall.
80 volts into 3.2 ohms is exactly 2000 watts. driver at first maximum comes up to around 30mm.


"I'm intrigued, do continue. Is this something you've been on for a while or did we peak your interest enough to draw this up?"

with what we learned about de-tuning high inductance drivers for horn modeling (thanks primarily to diy speaker guy), i thought it was about time to go ahead and redo-Submaximus. this one has a similar fold pattern as the f20 but this one is MUCH larger. it is huge actually. not meant to go after the very lowest notes, i still think the ported are best when that is the goal (i wouldn't be surprised to see this one get strong response down to around 16-17hz in room, even with a protective high pass, but that will depend on the room).

i lack any more creativity, so this one shall be known as...SUBMAXIMUS V3 UXL.




UXL driver (detuned as well, and showing inductance effects) in a ~15 c.f. ported cab tune a little under 20hz driven with same 2kw power. looks like this horn is good for about 5-6db across most of the range. since it will be asked, dark red line is 5.5 cubic footer sealed. 2kw same motor detuning. hits just over xmax in this size cab with that power.
















- the internal panels are 24" wide (slightly less from rip cutting won't matter)


- the "braces/brackets" showing the measurements are for the internal air space.


- good bracing is required.


- i'm not sure if the black diagonal deflector at 14/15 actually does anything other than serve as a brace.


- side panels are 36" x 80". best practice would be to draw the panel layout onto a side piece.


- the measurements will vary by a slight amount depending on the precise thickness of the wood panels ("three quarter inch plywood" in many cases is 23/32). that won't affect performance in any way, just be aware of it where you want the panels to line up just right (on the outside of the cab for example).


- try to get measurement 1 as close as possible to 3.23 inches. that measurement sets the "compression ratio", which for this horn is actually pretty low, so there is actually some wiggle room there. but still, if only one measurement on the entire horn is 'perfect', that should be it.


- a removable panel could be cut in the side for access to the driver if that is desired.


- this aspect of the design process actually required the most time/work. if somebody could double check these measurements, i'd appreciate it.


one bracing strategy--single row of 6" braces down the center of the cab. two rows might be even better, but more work. doubling up on the first brace in front of the driver might not be a bad idea.







cut sheet layout suggests 4 sheets may be possible.






measured results compared with model indicate that this one...hit the target.





pink line is measured result--asarose247
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post45776265
black line on bottom is target response rescaled to the same as the measurement.
blue line is the same as the black line, overlaid for comparison.
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post #68 of 248 Old 06-29-2016, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks @LTD02
In that case maybe i need to repurpose all 4 of my uxl's into these..lol..
Since it's an flh not a tapped horn, i should be able to run it upto 80hz.. No ?
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post #69 of 248 Old 06-29-2016, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattykidd View Post
Thanks @LTD02
In that case maybe i need to repurpose all 4 of my uxl's into these..lol..
Since it's an flh not a tapped horn, i should be able to run it upto 80hz.. No ?

lol.


to your question, the resonant peaks at the upper end of the bass tend not to be as prominent in reality as they are in model, but may still require some eq for a smooth response. an 80hz crossover should be just fine. with a front loaded horn, the upper end of the bass tends to be pretty strong as well. in this case, upper end sensitivity is about 97db 1w1m for a single cab.
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post #70 of 248 Old 06-29-2016, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So it's settled.. It's gonna be a Bit before it gets finalized but I'm gonna build a pair of these..
Thanks John.. You're a gentleman and a scholar. Expect a couple pm's once it gets underway..lol..
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post #71 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattykidd View Post
So it's settled.. It's gonna be a Bit before it gets finalized but I'm gonna build a pair of these..
Thanks John.. You're a gentleman and a scholar. Expect a couple pm's once it gets underway..lol..

it was brought to my attention that the current version of hornresp has an option for modeling large voice coil drivers (such as the uxl).


this is the frequency response with the large voice coil simulation option selected.





I updated post 67 so all the charts would be together in a single post.
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post #72 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 02:36 AM
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i pulled together most of the information into post 67. if anything else is required (or missing or incorrect), please let me know.

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post #73 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 07:08 AM
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Everything looks good so far. Glad I remembered to look into the inductance issues before settling on a driver.
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post #74 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
i pulled together most of the information into post 67. if anything else in required (or missing or incorrect), please let me know.
Sweet Jebus.. You're a freaking machine.. Thanks man..

@Waterboy77 here we go. This should be a cool project once underway..
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post #75 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattykidd View Post
Sweet Jebus.. You're a freaking machine.. Thanks man..

@Waterboy77 here we go. This should be a cool project once underway..

Yes @LTD02 you are a machine
Looking forward to it..... but you can carry them into your basement LOL


What kind of wood is best?


So this is going to put you at 7.10.4.... CRAZY

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post #76 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterboy77 View Post
Yes @LTD02 you are a machine
Looking forward to it..... but you can carry them into your basement LOL


What kind of wood is best?


So this is going to put you at 7.10.4.... CRAZY
I thought i read somewhere that thx standards was one sub for every speaker..lol..
Was actually gonna repurpose two of the current uxl's.
Plan is... Put the horns behind my screen, move the DO 15's to midpoint on my long wall.. Pretty much where my rack is and directly across from it. Then put the other two uxl's firing direct into my (wife's) seat for the subsonic "jiggle". ;-)
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post #77 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 01:40 PM
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And the good news is . . .

The corner to corner dimension , diagonally using a 36" base and 80" length is only

<88", 25.5 x 80 = <84"

so standing this beasty up from horizontal to vertical to rest on a HF furniture dolly,
doable with 8 ft ceilings
and, for those of us with space constraints

massive oompa-loompa in 6 sq ft , mol, footprint ( totally brilliant)

(when you think of it (I may not have all the names right), along with @LTD02 , @DIYS peakerguy, @maxmercy , Ricci and many others in the shadows, there must be a secretive cabal/ conspiracy holding incomprehensible vast knowledge and infinite possibilities, laws of physics notwithstanding,)

(Is it just "coincidence" that the public avatar, "face", for @LTD02 (John) of this conspiracy looks so "ghost" like?) (I'm just sayin' . . .)

moving on . .

(muses thoughtfully . . so for <$400 ,8 sheets of ply, 4 tubes of PL, and I have all the tools, saws, and best of all, 2 relatively fresh UXL's , ,
,or
( I could buy that dead guys big ass Grizzly 17 30th anniversary edition band saw ($500) but then I have to buy the Delta 735X ($650) planer and then . . forget that *****)

so don't use the T-nuts, just good oak blocking to mount the driver, gotta be a massive time saver (oh yeah I'm retired, got all the time I need)
and use the same m.o. wrt Max V2 for sealing the chamber, just this time don't spend so much time lining up all the screws so symmetrically.

What could possibly go wrong?
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post #78 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
it was brought to my attention that the current version of hornresp has an option for modeling large voice coil drivers (such as the uxl).
That's been there since the paper was released, McBean released the "Large Coil" tweak in Hornresp simultaneously with the release of the paper. You and McBean were instrumental in ironing out some of the finer points of the generic tweak, and you were the one that suggested tweaking Bl instead of Re, so thanks again for that.

Hornresp uses the generic tweak. The curve fit tweak should be a bit more accurate, looking at the spreadsheet the curve fit value for adjusted Bl on the UXL is 16.7. IIRC I sent you a copy of the spreadsheet that shows all the curve fit Bl adjustments for each tested driver as I was putting the paper together. (All the curve fit adjustments are only applicable when using data-bass measured t/s.) The curve fit adjustments should be a bit more accurate, there's only so much accuracy a generic tweak can have - but the generic tweak is really easy so that's what Hornresp uses. Also the generic tweak can be used with any driver, while the curve fit tweak needs to be tested for each driver individually and so far the data pool is only 22 drivers IIRC.

A couple of people commented that the UM and TC drivers didn't need the tweak. While it's true that they aren't extremely inaccurate if you don't use the tweak, you will get more accurate results if you do use the tweak. Both of these were tested in the paper and in both cases the simulated vs measured results for both were substantially more accurate when tweaked. Even the Dayton HO and MTX 9515 with incredibly low normalized inductance still benefited in accuracy when tweaked. All drivers tested in the paper simulated more accurately when tweaked compared to the measurements.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattykidd View Post
Thanks @LTD02
In that case maybe i need to repurpose all 4 of my uxl's into these..lol..
Since it's an flh not a tapped horn, i should be able to run it upto 80hz.. No ?
Stacking 4 in close proximity (mouth to mouth) should gain a bit extra sensitivity and extension at the low knee. Not a lot but a bit. Then if you can corner load the stack you gain a bit more sensitivity and extension again.
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post #80 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diy speaker guy View Post
Stacking 4 in close proximity (mouth to mouth) should gain a bit extra sensitivity and extension at the low knee. Not a lot but a bit. Then if you can corner load the stack you gain a bit more sensitivity and extension again.
Lol.. Not that i use the wooferage i have now to it's max, but good to know.
Does mouth orientation make a big in room difference ? Whether the mouth is pointing at you or if they are pointing at each other?
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post #81 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 04:36 PM
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Everything makes a difference but room interaction is so complex that it's hard to tell exactly what's going to happen in any given situation. It's easy enough to predict with the theoretical subwoofer and up to 3 infinitely rigid boundaries (2 walls and floor) but beyond that it gets almost impossible to accurately predict.

If you were outside it would be easy to recommend an optimum setup but in room you have to experiment a bit. Theoretically though, the closer you can get the mouths the better they will couple (mutual coupling to higher frequencies) and if you can corner load that will give max spl. That might not be optimum for smooth spl at any given spot in the room but it's usually the way to get the loudest.

Another option is to listen nearfield, in that case the room doesn't matter as much since you get more direct sound and less reflected sound.

My favorite experience was nearfield and corner loaded - standing/sitting in the corner with a huge horn pointed into the corner. It's not exactly practical but it is an experience. Everything else I have heard before or since was a mushy mess, including in car bass. If you put yourself in a corner and wall yourself in with big horns you can actually feel the push and pull of the individual cycles instead of the droning mush you usually hear. Maybe give it a try just for the unique experience before setting things up in their permanent positions.
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post #82 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diy speaker guy View Post
That's been there since the paper was released, McBean released the "Large Coil" tweak in Hornresp simultaneously with the release of the paper. You and McBean were instrumental in ironing out some of the finer points of the generic tweak, and you were the one that suggested tweaking Bl instead of Re, so .......
I didnt even see this until now. I also somehow missed your inductance thread. BUT now I have seen the light and glad to have acquired the knowledge. Although disappointing to now see the more accurate results compared to what I thought was accurate.

Glad to see this horned design is still a go with the inductance added in.
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post #83 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 07:55 PM
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@diy speaker guy
thanks for clearing that all up. i appear to update hornresp every couple of years or so, so i was running pretty far behind in version.


@Fattykidd
one thing to definitely keep in mind is navigating the enclosure into the room. if it won't be built in the theater room, just make sure the doorways/hallways etc. are friendly to moving the large box into the room. please feel free to pm anytime with questions (or anything else). :-)

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post #84 of 248 Old 06-30-2016, 09:42 PM
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@diy speaker guy
thanks for clearing that all up. i appear to update hornresp every couple of years or so, so i was running pretty far behind in version.
There have been a bunch of really cool features added in the last few months. It pays to keep up with the Hornresp thread on diyaudio. He's made significant changes to the directivity tool recently (which I don't care much about).

He also added a feature that will break up a hyp/ex horn into 1 - 4 PAR, CON or EXP segments so you can sim and get dimensional data for a hyp/ex shaped horn you can actually build. This is so cool because you can do a quick hyp/ex sim and if you like it you can break it into 4 PAR segments (and edit the segments on the fly if you like for folding considerations) and simulate it as an offset driver in a matter of seconds. For example, take a hyp/ex horn with these details -
S1 = 200
S2 = 20000
L12 = 300
T = 0.6
And select the hpy/ex approximator tool and you get this (shown with 4 PAR segments selected - it breaks them into equal length segments but you can change up anything you like right here in the approximator on the fly to get the red PAR segment outline to match the yellow original hyp/ex flare to match better or put the segments where you intend to fold) -



Give it a try, it's a fun little tool and saves you a ton of work if you like hyp/ex flares.

And probably most exciting is that he's added simple filter capability accessible before hitting "calculate". So you can add a high pass and/or low pass active filter without using the filter wizard. This is a HUGE deal because you can now do stuff like check port velocity with the hpf in place, and all the other stuff you couldn't do before within the filter wizard itself.
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post #85 of 248 Old 07-01-2016, 12:08 AM
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Is this option in the horn segment wizard?

I have a S1, S2, Hyp 700 in my HR inputs but cant use horn segment wizard. SO is this some where else or something else I need to do first?

Sorry LTD just figured I would ask real quick. Probably see how the Zv3 and SP4 look in this FLH also.
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post #86 of 248 Old 07-01-2016, 12:18 AM
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Which option, the hyp/ex approximator?

Click on S1 once to highlight it. Then click Tools, then Hypex Approximator.
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post #87 of 248 Old 07-01-2016, 12:28 AM
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Which option, the hyp/ex approximator?

Click on S1 once to highlight it. Then click Tools, then Hypex Approximator.
Wow thats awesome. Thanks again

And nice to see that the Zv3, SP4, UXL and 5100 all work well in this cabinet. So looks like I might need to make some more room. LOL

LTD I could post all these simulation responses if you like here?

Zv3 D1 has a similar response shape as the UXL. It has a larger peak at 19hz and falls more rapidly below that than the UXL. SP4 look similar but not as good as the UXL.

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post #88 of 248 Old 07-01-2016, 01:48 PM
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...
LTD I could post all these simulation responses if you like here?
...

not my thread, but i'd say sure, why not?

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post #89 of 248 Old 07-01-2016, 05:27 PM
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Posted the information in your thread here. Also copied post #67 and added it to your Submaximus thread to not take anymore away from OP.

LTD was this an option still or is the mouth too small?



Looks like there is enough room but wondered if this was still an option.

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post #90 of 248 Old 07-02-2016, 09:17 PM
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Posted the information in your thread here. Also copied post #67 and added it to your Submaximus thread to not take anymore away from OP.

LTD was this an option still or is the mouth too small?



Looks like there is enough room but wondered if this was still an option.

it is a bit of an optical illusion because the cab is so deep. the area of that mouth is actually only a hair less than the area of the mouth on the standard model.


a quick rough calc shows it to be around 2570 cm^2 vs 2800 cm^2 for the standard model, which reduces output by a fraction of a db.

@Fattykidd
placing the horns on the front wall aimed at each other will create a virtual wall down the center of the room (much like two horns side-by-side).

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