Gjhallerhorn v2 or Submaximus for pair of Uxl's - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Gjhallerhorn v2 or Submaximus for pair of Uxl's

I'm looking for the cleanest most effortless bass I can find from 18ish Hz up to 100Hz. I'm planning to use Real Baltic Birch. I was looking at submaximus as the difficulty of angled cuts is reduced but after careful consideration I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue to make the cuts.
So bottom line which design is going to perform the best ? My room is about 3500cu ft in an L shape.. I listen at pretty close to reference for my movies when no one is home.
Thoughts?

Ivor.
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post #2 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 10:42 AM
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For the record . . .


When the GB first came up I thought a-ha! Ghorn v2 and a member shared the info
and after careful consideration and looking at cutting about around 40 pieces, including braces
(one of the few sets of plans that actually has the braces planned, like the BF subs)
I went with the Lowarhorn
after the great experience of building MAX, the mechanics of assembly where really a snap
and there is less fussing about wrt being a TH, eliminates that whole air tight sealed chamber necessity
you can tell from my pics that I gave it the a solid treatement but . .
give the lowarhorn a re-read
being a bit smaller, you may get more placement options



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L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
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post #3 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
For the record . . .


When the GB first came up I thought a-ha! Ghorn v2 and a member shared the info
and after careful consideration and looking at cutting about around 40 pieces, including braces
(one of the few sets of plans that actually has the braces planned, like the BF subs)
I went with the Lowarhorn
after the great experience of building MAX, the mechanics of assembly where really a snap
and there is less fussing about wrt being a TH, eliminates that whole air tight sealed chamber necessity
you can tell from my pics that I gave it the a solid treatement but . .
give the lowarhorn a re-read
being a bit smaller, you may get more placement options


The lowarhorn was actually at the top my list but the 72" width ruled it out. However thank you very much for the suggestion.
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post #4 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattykidd View Post
The lowarhorn was actually at the top my list but the 72" width ruled it out. However thank you very much for the suggestion.
It has 6 sides, and 5 of them can be the bottom side. Could even put it against the ceiling if you have the studs for that weight. Think laterally
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post #5 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
It has 6 sides, and 5 of them can be the bottom side. Could even put it against the ceiling if you have the studs for that weight. Think laterally
Mounting to the ceiling really isn't an option in my room, and I'm having a hard time seeing a good place to stand it vertically.

How are the lowarhorn at mid bass ? Do they suffer from the 60hz up "funk" that I've been hearing about with horn subs ?
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post #6 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 01:26 PM
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the exchange of ideas for the DIY , or not, guy here at AVS unites all of us "in the same boat, mol"
everybody gets un-judgmentally heard . ..
BUT in an " oh, really" moment wrt to 72" being too great a dimension
I recalled part of a discussion I had wrt to problems of small, really small rooms
in particular, MY man-cave
here it is:


In my small room < 10' x 11' closerto 100 sq.ft.
in the right front corner standing up, a 30"THTLP, loading distance to the ceiling 20+"
in the left rearcorner standing up, a 24" THTLP, distance 21+" (because Icould make it fit, that's why)
using a Denon X4000 and itsseparate sub EQ thru 2 BASH 300's, xo 80
immersive and mostauthoritative to say the least


L/C RB 51's C: G-28, Sl/r S-10's , RS (one)SLX, Front highssome big ass RS3's all Klipsch,


XT32 does nicely using PlIIx for music and movies
but notexclusively, the X4000 is a fine AVR
and 4 Aura shakers with a PE250 amp on the seating for good measure
and a 73" mitsy dlpfor visuals , with a new lamp


a panasonic BD that does 2d>3d which the mitsy can do


Direct TV, my laptop, , Netflix, Amazon Prime ,3T drive full of stuff
total lightblack-out, heavy lined draped walls


a background noise level of 37-38 dB


illustrates the imagination/willingness of folks here to ask "what if', "why?" and even better "why the h3ll not"


YMMV


Build On!

DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
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post #7 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
the exchange of ideas for the DIY , or not, guy here at AVS unites all of us "in the same boat, mol"
everybody gets un-judgmentally heard . ..
BUT in an " oh, really" moment wrt to 72" being too great a dimension
I recalled part of a discussion I had wrt to problems of small, really small rooms
in particular, MY man-cave
here it is:


In my small room < 10' x 11' closerto 100 sq.ft.
in the right front corner standing up, a 30"THTLP, loading distance to the ceiling 20+"
in the left rearcorner standing up, a 24" THTLP, distance 21+" (because Icould make it fit, that's why)
using a Denon X4000 and itsseparate sub EQ thru 2 BASH 300's, xo 80
immersive and mostauthoritative to say the least


L/C RB 51's C: G-28, Sl/r S-10's , RS (one)SLX, Front highssome big ass RS3's all Klipsch,


XT32 does nicely using PlIIx for music and movies
but notexclusively, the X4000 is a fine AVR
and 4 Aura shakers with a PE250 amp on the seating for good measure
and a 73" mitsy dlpfor visuals , with a new lamp


a panasonic BD that does 2d>3d which the mitsy can do


Direct TV, my laptop, , Netflix, Amazon Prime ,3T drive full of stuff
total lightblack-out, heavy lined draped walls


a background noise level of 37-38 dB


illustrates the imagination/willingness of folks here to ask "what if', "why?" and even better "why the h3ll not"


YMMV


Build On!
Haha haha.. that's actually a pretty motivating excerpt. maybe I should start thinking a little more outside the box, so to speak.. thanks again, looks like the lowarhorn is back on the table as an option.

Every time I change or add something in my room it's getting harder to keep saying to my wife that it's still a family room not a "man cave"... and to keep a straight face.

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post #9 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 04:44 PM
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EDIT: BE SURE TO READ THROUGH TO POST 67.
POST 67 CONTAINS THE KEY INFORMATION.


given what we have learned, I'd make some changes to the Submaximus if using the uxl driver. it would probably amount to a redesign.


also, haven't checked given the new learning, but does the uxl work in the gjallerhorn after inductance adjustment?

Listen. It's All Good.

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given what we have learned, I'd make some changes to the Submaximus if using the uxl driver. it would probably amount to a redesign.


also, haven't checked given the new learning, but does the uxl work in the gjallerhorn after inductance adjustment?
Is there something that needs to be done after the build to account for the inductance?
So you no longer recommend Submaximus? Is the inductance issue audible ? I'm planning to build two and will probably pick up two more uxl's later on to put in my ported enclosures. But will still be running my two ftw21lte's in the meantime..
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post #11 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
given what we have learned, I'd make some changes to the Submaximus if using the uxl driver. it would probably amount to a redesign.


also, haven't checked given the new learning, but does the uxl work in the gjallerhorn after inductance adjustment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fattykidd View Post
Is there something that needs to be done after the build to account for the inductance?
So you no longer recommend Submaximus? Is the inductance issue audible ? I'm planning to build two and will probably pick up two more uxl's later on to put in my ported enclosures. But will still be running my two ftw21lte's in the meantime..


Light line is a regular sim with UXL in Ghorn. Dark line is inductance corrected sim with UXL in Ghorn.

This is the 4th time I've posted this sim in the last couple of weeks in various places.

Ricci confirmed this is going to be at least somewhat accurate, although his own estimate wasn't quite as bad as mine. He felt the UXL was an acceptable drop in driver because the main response (up until the first big spike) was still within a 6 db window. Not as good as the original driver the cab was designed for but workable with processing. This is all in the Hzhorn thread.

This is my basic inductance correction method, not 100 percent accurate but a lot more accurate than the light line without the correction. If you want to see how accurate my basic correction tweak is, skim the Hzhorn thread, there's a bunch of examples including inductance corrected sims for Submaximus (with UXL) and Othorn (with UXL and Sundown ZV3) with actual measurements shown for comparison. Can't compare Ghorn sim as shown above to a measurement because no one has measured Ghorn with UXL yet, but it will look very similar to the dark line in the graph above when someone ends up posting a good measurement one day.

I didn't want to bring this up myself, but since you guys did, this is the prediction. I don't want to follow Ghorn threads and post this every time, I don't want to pick on Ghorn, but personally I wouldn't put a UXL in it.

Submaximus is a different story, flhs are a bit more forgiving for high inductance drivers, I think Submaximus measurements look fine and although it's tuned a bit lower than OP is looking for I think it's probably a better bet if UXL is the chosen driver. A complete redesign could be fine too though, if someone is willing to do it.

There is nothing you can do AFTER the build to account for inductance, it has to be accounted for in the design phase.

Inductance isn't audible as a distinct phenomenon per se, it presents as a completely different frequency response that a sim would suggest because simple sims can't accurately handle high inductance. This different frequency response WILL sound different, but it's not a specific sound you will hear that you can point at and say - Inductance. It's just a wildly different frequency response than you were expecting if you didn't correct for it in the sim. It will show up as a severely overdamped high q in cab response, suggesting that the box is way too small.

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post #12 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 06:59 PM
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The GHorn and LHorn are too small for the UXL. It wants a bigger box.
How much bigger I'm not sure, haven't crunched the exact numbers, but they are definitely bigger...

Bigger means more expensive on wood.
You'd have to refold it (or at least you SHOULD), which adds complexity.
But no more complexity that what I went through to refold the LMS into a HzHorn sized box (which is an even smaller box FYI).

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post #13 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 07:18 PM
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You'd have to refold it (or at least you SHOULD), which adds complexity.
But no more complexity that what I went through to refold the LMS into a HzHorn sized box (which is an even smaller box FYI).
Redesign, not refold.

Redesign CAN be a lot more complex than what you went through with Hzhorn. There's a lot of factors you may or may not have considered with the Hzhorn design. You didn't go into a lot of detail in the design process so it's hard to know what you considered and what you didn't, but an extremely accurate fold alone using advanced centerline method can take up to a couple of weeks depending on your personal method of folding, number of folds, and how accurate you want the fold to be (how well the plans match the actual sim).

Designing and folding isn't exactly difficult, but I'm 10 years in and I've been studying and simulating and playing with horns a lot in that time. I take a lot of time explaining that it's something the average person can do, but I wouldn't advise even trying without having a good background and/or a lot of help.
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If the box is wrong .....

The box is wrong.
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Originally Posted by diy speaker guy View Post

Light line is a regular sim with UXL in Ghorn. Dark line is inductance corrected sim with UXL in Ghorn.

This is the 4th time I've posted this sim in the last couple of weeks in various places.

Ricci confirmed this is going to be at least somewhat accurate, although his own estimate wasn't quite as bad as mine. He felt the UXL was an acceptable drop in driver because the main response (up until the first big spike) was still within a 6 db window. Not as good as the original driver the cab was designed for but workable with processing. This is all in the Hzhorn thread.

This is my basic inductance correction method, not 100 percent accurate but a lot more accurate than the light line without the correction. If you want to see how accurate my basic correction tweak is, skim the Hzhorn thread, there's a bunch of examples including inductance corrected sims for Submaximus (with UXL) and Othorn (with UXL and Sundown ZV3) with actual measurements shown for comparison. Can't compare Ghorn sim as shown above to a measurement because no one has measured Ghorn with UXL yet, but it will look very similar to the dark line in the graph above when someone ends up posting a good measurement one day.

I didn't want to bring this up myself, but since you guys did, this is the prediction. I don't want to follow Ghorn threads and post this every time, I don't want to pick on Ghorn, but personally I wouldn't put a UXL in it.

Submaximus is a different story, flhs are a bit more forgiving for high inductance drivers, I think Submaximus measurements look fine and although it's tuned a bit lower than OP is looking for I think it's probably a better bet if UXL is the chosen driver. A complete redesign could be fine too though, if someone is willing to do it.

There is nothing you can do AFTER the build to account for inductance, it has to be accounted for in the design phase.

Inductance isn't audible as a distinct phenomenon per se, it presents as a completely different frequency response that a sim would suggest because simple sims can't accurately handle high inductance. This different frequency response WILL sound different, but it's not a specific sound you will hear that you can point at and say - Inductance. It's just a wildly different frequency response than you were expecting if you didn't correct for it in the sim. It will show up as a severely overdamped high q in cab response, suggesting that the box is way too small.
I've seen this graph posted and this a part of the reason we're talking... I've skimmed the hzhorn thread and I've read through the submaximus thread and I've read the lowarhorn thread as well, I didn't want to be thread jacking on the other gents so figured I'd post my own thread so I didn't get buried in the pile in the other threads.
Personally I look at the sims for the horns and they are always full of huge peaks and 15db +- swings, but everything I read and everyone I talk to says the same thing.. You want the cleanest and loudest output possible-- Build a Horn.
I'm not against lower tuning but I sure don't want to lose the 20hz output I have now..
With my limited knowledge I look at your above graph, even after the inductance correction and think to myself.. ok I can still eq this and have a flat 120db of output.. Is my thinking incorrect ? Some of what you say goes over my head to be totally honest, That's why I'm trying to look at proven designs instead of designing my own horn. But I'm more than willing to try and learn what it all means.
Thanks for your response.
Ivor
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post #16 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by diy speaker guy View Post
it's hard to know what you considered and what you didn't, but an extremely accurate fold alone using advanced centerline method can take up to a couple of weeks depending on your personal method of folding, number of folds, and how accurate you want the fold to be (how well the plans match the actual sim).
What I did was put in the LHorn numbers into HornResp and started adjusting the dimensions of the cross sectional area's until the frequency response was flat looking for the box volume I was aiming for.
I didn't factor in number of folds; just length and surface area and driver specs. (Which in my case was the LMS-18.)

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post #17 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 07:46 PM
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Here is a UXL-18 in a remodelled HzHorn, this is about as close as can be had with the UXL-18: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post33775369



A GHorn remodelling would be some-what similar in performance...

A small peak at 20hz, a small dip at 30hz and a small peak at 40hz. Overal not too shabby.

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post #18 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 07:48 PM
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Submaximus and most of the front loaded horns don't have those big 15 db spikes and swings. That's a tapped horn thing for the most part, although some front loaded horns are really badly designed.

There also ways to tame the peaks in tapped horns too, like making the horn bigger (the rest of the response curve will rise to meet the levels of the peaks if you make it big enough) choosing the right driver and the right design for the driver, and placing a bit of stuffing in the right spot in the horn.

You are partly correct, processing can make that dark line in the graph just as smooth as the light line. But I think it would take a lot more than a standard eq. At 16 hz the difference between the two lines in the graph is something like 10 db. If you wanted to gain that 10 db back AND have an appropriate high pass filter incorporated I think it would take some pretty narrow high amplitude peq, which is digital signal processing, not simple eq. Mini dsp, behringer dcx (or deq) 2496 or equivalent products could easily do it but your average eq isn't going to be even vaguely close to adequate.

On the other hand you might get really luck and have big wide room modes on both sides of the 23 hz hump that boost up the response and flatten it right out with no processing at all. This is entirely possible but not exactly probable. It's just as likely that you could have a big mode at 23 hz that makes the response shown worse by a factor of 2 or more. You'd have to measure your room's natural response curve if you wanted to know for sure. Put a sub in the spot you want your horn mouth, measure the response in room, take the sub outside and measure it there, and find the difference in the two curves. That will give you a pretty good idea of what your room is doing.

It's always a good idea to know what your room is doing, but especially when it comes to subs with big spikes in response. It's either going to make things a lot better, a lot worse, or just a lot different, but it will never measure in room the way a sim predicts.
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With some nearfield EQ adjustments I was able to get this response from my HzHorn in the nearfield. So it stands to reason that the UXL-18 could be eq'ed similarly...


That said, there is still some "funk" in the response above 60hz that the UMIK does not show in the FR, this seems to be the nature of tapped horns I guess...
If you can live with it, it outputs "reasonably well" to 130hz. Then it falls apart. Of course YMMV...

The frequency response doesn't change with input power (until ridiculous levels), so that's good...
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post #20 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 08:12 PM
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I hope your floors are strong, the box will weigh like 4-600lbs, each!!!
and I hope your wife is as equally as accommodating of a 30-60cuft box to make the UXL work. Holy Smokes Batman!

Think in advance of how you are gonna get it into your room. How big ur doors be man?


If you are doing bracing like what I did, you'll want about 50 of them placed strategically at the weak spots and at the load-baring and pressure-baring regions of the box (without obstructing the air flow too much.)

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post #21 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 08:30 PM
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I wouldn't be surprised at all to find if the SPL directly in front of these drivers is at 180db.

I was measuring 135db at the mouth at 16hz, and it increases by 6db per foot inside the horn length for as far as my arm could reach. The UMIK clips almost instantly if placed inside the mouth.

The pressure in front of these drivers has got to be something unreal.

The air is gonna want out of that box, and will shred anything standing in its path.

Food for thought.
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post #22 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 09:13 PM
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I hope your floors are strong, the box will weigh like 4-600lbs, each!!!
and I hope your wife is as equally as accommodating of a 30-60cuft box to make the UXL work. Holy Smokes Batman!
It looks fairly good in flh as small as 500 liters but takes a lot more amp voltage to get it to xmax. Or you can use it without high pass filter and then it doesn't take much power at all to hit xmax. There's a variety of options.
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Originally Posted by diy speaker guy View Post
It looks fairly good in flh as small as 500 liters but takes a lot more amp voltage to get it to xmax. Or you can use it without high pass filter and then it doesn't take much power at all to hit xmax. There's a variety of options.
Please elaborate, I've got plenty of amp power so no issues there. I've also got my minidsp that I use for time and phase aligning my two groups of subs. Dirac on my prepro does a wonderful job with the eq of my subs as I eq all 4 as a group. I don't like doing them separate as you could be boosting one to compensate for a null that another one already fills in.
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post #24 of 248 Old 04-25-2015, 10:24 PM
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Quick 5 minute sim (not optimized in any way), probably pretty similar to Submaximus although I didn't check. To get it to this level takes 140 V, which is 6100 watts into 3.2 ohms, although it would never actually see anywhere near that much power over the vast majority of it's bandwidth with the required hpf, lpf and/or leveling eq the amp still has to be capable of 140 V to get it to this level. (Lpf can probably act as leveling eq or it can be done separately from the lpf.) Or you can run it without a hpf and keep the volume down a bit. Shown with Re method inductance correction so spl level is not correct. This is just to show that it can be happy in less than 600 liters. That little flare right at the end isn't necessary, I didn't even realize it was there until I looked at the schematic. Those bumps in the response won't be as bad as predicted either, check Submaximus sims vs measurements to see the real deal on all that.


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post #25 of 248 Old 04-26-2015, 12:41 PM
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Small sidestep: Hey Ivor - how the hell do you like your 1099's compared to the Trip 8's?
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post #26 of 248 Old 04-26-2015, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LitoGeorge View Post
Small sidestep: Hey Ivor - how the hell do you like your 1099's compared to the Trip 8's?
I'm so happy with the 1099's, mids are a little smoother on them and less fatiguing at reference. It took some eq to get them this way however. After I get a chance to actually do some measurements of the two sets the jtr's WILL be getting sold.
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post #27 of 248 Old 04-26-2015, 01:03 PM
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something like this might work...


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post #28 of 248 Old 04-26-2015, 01:29 PM
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which could also be put this way...


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post #29 of 248 Old 04-26-2015, 01:29 PM
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or, finally, like this:





25.5" inches wide, so all center panels are ~24" width--cut sheet friendly.
height was increased until horn length and rear chamber fit model.
driver de-tune is guess, so there may be "better guesses".
compression ratio was kept very low, shouldn't be much risk of damaging driver (high pass required obviously)
man scaled to 6' tall.
80 volts into 3.2 ohms is exactly 2000 watts. driver at first maximum comes up to around 30mm.
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Last edited by LTD02; 04-26-2015 at 01:38 PM.
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post #30 of 248 Old 04-26-2015, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
something like this might work...


I'm intrigued, do continue. Is this something you've been on for a while or did we peak your interest enough to draw this up? ?
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