My Dual Ultimax 18s in knock-down sealed boxes - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 122 Old 06-14-2015, 08:48 PM
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Good job on the enclosures, they look stellar in black and those drivers are super duper mega sexy. Wish my woofers were as good looking

I like bass
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post #62 of 122 Old 06-16-2015, 09:08 AM
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I haven't really kept close track of it, since, in the end, the idea was to just make 2 of them for less than the cost of another SVS PC-13Ultra. I think I've succeeded, but here it is roughly:

2 kits: 332*2 = 664

Used iNuke 6000: 220, shipped
How did you manage to finagle the ultimax 18 kit for 332? Great price on the iNuke 6000 too, where did you buy it? I paid 340 for the DSP version. I would have just gotten 6000 w/o dsp had I seen your post

Btw, great build, and super job on the finish.
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Speakers: Boston Acoustics VS260, VS325C
Subwoofers (sealed): Dayton UM18, 2x Infinity 1260 dual opposed + iNuke6000DSP
AVR: Yamaha RX-A2000
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post #63 of 122 Old 06-16-2015, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by madhuxs View Post
How did you manage to finagle the ultimax 18 kit for 332?
That's only a few dollars less than it is now. link
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post #64 of 122 Old 06-16-2015, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madhuxs View Post
How did you manage to finagle the ultimax 18 kit for 332? Great price on the iNuke 6000 too, where did you buy it? I paid 340 for the DSP version. I would have just gotten 6000 w/o dsp had I seen your post

Btw, great build, and super job on the finish.
Oops, like I said, I didn't really keep track. When I wrote that email, I tried to put some figures together, and it seems I accidentally quoted the price for the kit with the Dayton Reference HO. Mine were $355. I also bought more expensive binding posts than I quoted in that email. Glad I stuck that extra $50 fudge factor in so I was at least close! ;-)

I went back and edited that post to correct the prices, and bold the fact that the amp was used.

I think the first post in this thread mentioned that I bought the iNuke from someone here in the classified section. It was $200 plus $20 shipping. Again, maybe that isn't fair to compare to buying an SVS new, since it was a used amp...but the question was "how much do you have into it?" Used amps can be found fairly easily here, on fleabay, and audiogon.

I've been told that an RMA was generated for the Balanced 2x4. Hoping to get that issue resolved so I can continue on this journey. ;-)

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post #65 of 122 Old 06-16-2015, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
Oops, like I said, I didn't really keep track. When I wrote that email, I tried to put some figures together, and it seems I accidentally quoted the price for the kit with the Dayton Reference HO. Mine were $355.
Good, I am feeling a little better now
1. I just about started working on my cab; did you glue the two front baffle boards together before you drilled the mounting holes?
2. how much of the restore4x did you end up using for both cabs?

Speakers: Boston Acoustics VS260, VS325C
Subwoofers (sealed): Dayton UM18, 2x Infinity 1260 dual opposed + iNuke6000DSP
AVR: Yamaha RX-A2000
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post #66 of 122 Old 06-16-2015, 09:37 AM
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That's only a few dollars less than it is now. link
$23 >>>few

Speakers: Boston Acoustics VS260, VS325C
Subwoofers (sealed): Dayton UM18, 2x Infinity 1260 dual opposed + iNuke6000DSP
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post #67 of 122 Old 06-16-2015, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madhuxs View Post
Good, I am feeling a little better now
1. I just about started working on my cab; did you glue the two front baffle boards together before you drilled the mounting holes?
2. how much of the restore4x did you end up using for both cabs?
I was really worried about drilling the mounting holes. It's easily the most difficult part of the entire build. I posted a separate thread about that here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-attached.html

I ended up following the normally prescribed build process. I glued the "back" baffle unto the otherwise complete cabinet, and, when that was dry, I glued the "front" baffle onto the "back" baffle. Mostly because I wanted to "finish" (ie. paint) the box while waiting for my drivers to come in (they were back-ordered at the time) If I had the drivers on-hand, I probably would have drilled first, I think. In the end, it didn't matter. My make-shift drill press worked perfectly TWICE (two kits, no issues with the holes lining up, or the t-nuts being pushed out).

I still have more than 1/2 of the gallon can of restore 4x left. It covers amazingly well, and, frankly, it's pretty hard to screw up. It is MUCH thicker than paint. Think "goo", or "tar." I did two full (thin) coats on each box, and the back of one box has 3 coats, because I was experimenting with texture/sanding/reflectivity.
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post #68 of 122 Old 06-16-2015, 11:07 AM
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So, I took the woofer out of my first cabinet. Did I mention I was happy I used nuts and bolts? ;-)

The pillow trick worked wonders...but it is a lot like waiting for ketchup to come out of a bottle. The driver really didn't want to move, mostly because of the vacuum behind it, I guess.

I bought some of this stuff:


It's probably thicker than needed, but it's *exactly* the right width. I covered the entire baffle edge, and used a razor knife to make a slice in the middle above the bolt holes.



Then, I test fit each bolt to make sure I wasn't going to run into an issue when dropping the driver on top of this stuff.



When the bolts were in the holes, I drew a line (see above) at the center line of the bolts...Since I was going to have no other way to line the driver up with the actual hole, and I couldn't see it through the weather stripping.

It worked. Very well. So I drilled, mounted t-nuts, stuffed, weather stripped, and assembled the second sub!

This is what I like to hear. Glad the weatherstripping worked for you!
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post #69 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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My replacement balanced miniDsp 2x4 came in. It's all wired up, and inserted between my processor and the iNuke. I haven't synced to it yet to remove the default crossovers.

I was reading around some tutorials, and I have a question.

When I ran Audyssey, I ended up with both channels on the iNuke two clicks to the right of half-way in order to get to 75db total from both subs.

Is there any reason at all to turn both knobs all the ways up, and alter the gain via the MiniDSP instead? One of the tutorials had that as a first step, and I'm having trouble understanding why that might be a good idea. I suppose it's nice to have a very specific (all the way up) setting on the knobs so its obvious if they have been moved, but aside from that? Any legitimate reason for running the amp full out, only to limit its input via the MiniDSP? (Of course, there's also the sub trim in the AVR also, I suppose I should zero that if Audyssey hasn't already.)

My next step after solving this question is to have REW spit out some EQ settings for the miniDSP, and then re-running Audyssey.

Thanks.
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post #70 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
Is there any reason at all to turn both knobs all the ways up, and alter the gain via the MiniDSP instead? One of the tutorials had that as a first step, and I'm having trouble understanding why that might be a good idea. I suppose it's nice to have a very specific (all the way up) setting on the knobs so its obvious if they have been moved, but aside from that? Any legitimate reason for running the amp full out, only to limit its input via the MiniDSP? (Of course, there's also the sub trim in the AVR also, I suppose I should zero that if Audyssey hasn't already.)
There's no way for us to answer these questions for you based on the information provided so far.

You could end up clipping the output of the miniDSP or your receiver if you are trying to make up for the low gain setting on the amp earlier in the signal chain (like having your subwoofer trim at +8dB). On the other hand, you could end up with your amps and signal chain set up so you can clip their output way too easily by cranking the volume on your receiver. Neither is desirable, but without a variety of measurements of the signal as it moves through your LFE signal chain and more information there's no way to determine the right settings.

1) Can your amp(s) overdrive your subs (ie: push them past xmax due to too much power)?
2) What is your subwoofer level trim set to in your receiver?
3) What receiver do you have?
4) How loudly do you listen?

Last edited by Stereodude; 06-18-2015 at 08:22 AM.
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post #71 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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There's no way for us to answer these questions for you based on the information provided so far.

1) Can your amp(s) overdrive your subs (ie: push them past xmax due to too much power)?
2) What is your subwoofer level trim set to in your receiver?
3) What receiver do you have?
4) How loudly do you listen?
Thanks. I'm happy to do as much research/measurement as necessary to get this right, and I think I have all of the tools...just not the right "know-how." :-)

1) I believe, in theory, that the iNuke6K can push the Dayton 18" Ultimax past xmax in the 4 cu. ft. sealed box.

2) I haven't checked. But I recently ran Audyssey, so it may have defaulted to 0? (I'll check when I'm home tonight)

3) I'm using a Denon x4000, into a balanced miniDsp (that I have set to 0.9 volts, instead of the default 2.0 volts, because, as I understand it, the iNuke can reach full volume at 0.71 volts) [see here: http://forum.speakerplans.com/behrin...8.html#690748] And, as I understand it, the Denon doesn't put out > 0.9 volts on the sub out.

4) Not particularly loud, I don't think. In general, movie watching is done around -10 to -5db from reference. But, that's only what my Denon says. I think my HTPC's volume, when at max, produces more output than it should...I need to find a volume level on the PC so that REW measures something close to what it should...but that's an experiment for another day, I think...)

Thanks for any and all assistance!
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post #72 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Ugh, now I've read some more and I think I want to run my miniDSP at 2.0 volts...It seems it always has 2.0 volts of output, and if I tell it that input max is 0.9 it will map that to 2.0 at output...and that's well beyond what the iNuke wants to see for max output.
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post #73 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
Thanks. I'm happy to do as much research/measurement as necessary to get this right, and I think I have all of the tools...just not the right "know-how." :-)

1) I believe, in theory, that the iNuke6K can push the Dayton 18" Ultimax past xmax in the 4 cu. ft. sealed box.

2) I haven't checked. But I recently ran Audyssey, so it may have defaulted to 0? (I'll check when I'm home tonight)

3) I'm using a Denon x4000, into a balanced miniDsp (that I have set to 0.9 volts, instead of the default 2.0 volts, because, as I understand it, the iNuke can reach full volume at 0.71 volts) [see here: http://forum.speakerplans.com/behrin...8.html#690748] And, as I understand it, the Denon doesn't put out > 0.9 volts on the sub out.

4) Not particularly loud, I don't think. In general, movie watching is done around -10 to -5db from reference. But, that's only what my Denon says. I think my HTPC's volume, when at max, produces more output than it should...I need to find a volume level on the PC so that REW measures something close to what it should...but that's an experiment for another day, I think...)

Thanks for any and all assistance!
1) Do you have the DSP model with the limiter? If so, are you using the limiter?

3) I would expect that your Denon can put out way more then 0.9V. I measured >4Vrms from my 4520CI with a 0dbFS signal in the LFE channel. My 4520 actually clips the LFE output with the master volume at 0dB and the subwoofer trim at 0dB with a 0dbFS signal in the .1 of a DTS 5.1 test signal (which is not exactly desirable).



4) Do you have it connected via HDMI? Are you bitstreaming and letting the receiver decode the compressed formats?
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post #74 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
1) Do you have the DSP model with the limiter? If so, are you using the limiter?

3) I would expect that your Denon can put out way more then 0.9V. I measured >4Vrms from my 4520CI with a 0dbFS signal in the LFE channel. My 4520 actually clips the LFE output with the master volume at 0dB and the subwoofer trim at 0dB with a 0dbFS signal in the .1 of a DTS 5.1 test signal (which is not exactly desirable).



4) Do you have it connected via HDMI? Are you bitstreaming and letting the receiver decode the compressed formats?
1) I did get a plugin that includes the compressor/limiter, but, I'm not using *anything* yet...I'm still at the baby steps level. It's wired up, but that's it. I'm not exactly sure how to set the limiter.

3) Okay, it seems I should go back to the 2 volt setting on the miniDSP anyway.

4) Yes, HDMI, bitstreaming (for example, the Denon says it is receiving DTS, not PCM). But even when it is doing that, the HTPC's volume control still works...so it is a variable that's in play. [and I wish it wasn't]
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post #75 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 09:41 AM
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1) I did get a plugin that includes the compressor/limiter, but, I'm not using *anything* yet...I'm still at the baby steps level. It's wired up, but that's it. I'm not exactly sure how to set the limiter.

3) Okay, it seems I should go back to the 2 volt setting on the miniDSP anyway.

4) Yes, HDMI, bitstreaming (for example, the Denon says it is receiving DTS, not PCM). But even when it is doing that, the HTPC's volume control still works...so it is a variable that's in play. [and I wish it wasn't]
1) I meant the amp, did you get the NU6000DSP or the NU6000?

3) Yes, probably

4) That should be impossible unless it's using CEC to change the MV of the receiver. You can't adjust the volume of bitstream formats (unless your PC is decoding and re-encoding but on the fly re-encoding isn't possible for DTS-HD MA or TrueHD).
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post #76 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
1) I meant the amp, did you get the NU6000DSP or the NU6000?

3) Yes, probably

4) That should be impossible unless it's using CEC to change the MV of the receiver. You can't adjust the volume of bitstream formats (unless your PC is decoding and re-encoding but on the fly re-encoding isn't possible for DTS-HD MA or TrueHD).
1) Oh, sorry. Non-DSP, since I planned on going miniDSP anyway.

3) Consider it done. But I'm reading through the entire miniDSP thread to get a better grasp on what that actually means. :-)

4) I'll confirm tonight. But my wireless keyboard happens to have a volume knob on it, and I'm pretty sure that I can change the volume from the keyboard while playing DTS-HD MA. I'm also pretty sure I've got CEC turned off everywhere. Anyway, I'm *absolutely* certain that the HTPC's volume effects the volume of the sweeps that REW does when I'm using the HDMI output in REW. No clue if that is using bitstream though.
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post #77 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 10:35 AM
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Anyway, I'm *absolutely* certain that the HTPC's volume effects the volume of the sweeps that REW does when I'm using the HDMI output in REW. No clue if that is using bitstream though.
That doesn't surprise me. Those tones are not bitstreamed.
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post #78 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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1) Set miniDSP back to 2.0 volts, cleared the default crossovers in the miniDSP, and synced to it.
2) Turned amplifier's volume knobs all the way up, set subwoofer trim to 0 (previous run had set it to -2.5db), used Audyssey's SW calibration to set output levels of miniDSP to -5db on each channel which yielded about 75db from both
3) Finished running a full Audyssey calibration.

(Aside: I did confirm that while bitstreaming from the HTPC, the HTPC's volume is doing nothing, so that's a relief)

So, I think I'm ready to let REW have a shot at generating some EQ for my subs...then I get to run Audyssey again! ;-)

As soon as I'm done with all this, my Dirac unit will show up on my doorstep...I know it.
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post #79 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 04:52 PM
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The amp claims to give 40db voltage gain to 4 ohm load with 0.775 volt input (40db voltage gain is 3000w at 4ohm). The amp can't handle more as I understand it, you just turn down the volume from the source. 2 volt signal needs -8.2db gain to give out 0.775 volt. So just turn down the volume from the signal source (subwoofer output I assume) by 8.2db. If you want to give some EQ boost you need to drop it further first before boosting any frequency. Not doing this is the sort of stuff that make somebody burn their subwoofers out in some movies.
Then set the amp gain to whatever corresponds to the power handling of the subwoofers (or the wattage that corresponds to xmax, given low tuning enclosure). If your subwoofers are 4 ohm and can handle 3000 watts peak without exceeding xmax then the full 40db voltage gain is what you have on the amp. How you figure out what 40db gain is without numbers on the amp, I have no clue.
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post #80 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
1) Set miniDSP back to 2.0 volts, cleared the default crossovers in the miniDSP, and synced to it.
2) Turned amplifier's volume knobs all the way up, set subwoofer trim to 0 (previous run had set it to -2.5db), used Audyssey's SW calibration to set output levels of miniDSP to -5db on each channel which yielded about 75db from both
3) Finished running a full Audyssey calibration.
I wouldn't have done it that way. I would set the SW trim to -5dB and left the output levels of the miniDSP at 0dB.

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The amp claims to give 40db voltage gain to 4 ohm load with 0.775 volt input (40db voltage gain is 3000w at 4ohm). The amp can't handle more as I understand it, you just turn down the volume from the source. 2 volt signal needs -8.2db gain to give out 0.775 volt. So just turn down the volume from the signal source (subwoofer output I assume) by 8.2db. If you want to give some EQ boost you need to drop it further first before boosting any frequency. Not doing this is the sort of stuff that make somebody burn their subwoofers out in some movies.
Then set the amp gain to whatever corresponds to the power handling of the subwoofers (or the wattage that corresponds to xmax, given low tuning enclosure). If your subwoofers are 4 ohm and can handle 3000 watts peak without exceeding xmax then the full 40db voltage gain is what you have on the amp. How you figure out what 40db gain is without numbers on the amp, I have no clue.
Where do you come up with this stuff? Your advice is highly inaccurate and your understanding is incorrect. The amp can take way more voltage than .775V. He doesn't need to turn down anything due to limits on the input of the amp.
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post #81 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I wouldn't have done it that way. I would set the SW trim to -5dB and left the output levels of the miniDSP at 0dB.


Where do you come up with this stuff? Your advice is highly inaccurate and your understanding is incorrect. The amp can take way more voltage than .775V. He doesn't need to turn down anything due to limits on the input of the amp.
Page 26.
0.775v seems to be enough for the amp, its an amplifier of voltage. If Behringer's pdf is wrong well sue them.
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post #82 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 06:46 PM
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Page 26.
0.775v seems to be enough for the amp, its an amplifier of voltage. If Behringer's pdf is wrong well sue them.
That's not a maximum. It's a minimum. You said the amp couldn't handle more.
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post #83 of 122 Old 06-18-2015, 07:35 PM
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That's not a maximum. It's a minimum. You said the amp couldn't handle more.
I'm pretty certain it can handle the 20dbu (nearly 22 volts rms) my external soundcard can give out. But in either case I would know precisely what voltage I feed the amp at every single frequency so that I can adjust the gain to the correct output power (most importantly what voltage I give at the frequency I boosted the most in EQ). However its a NU6000 with no bloody numbers on the gain setting, so you would need to measure that as well. Or you max it out, the single most accurate and simple setting possible on it.
But maybe I don't know anything, there's my disclaimer. Feel free to adjust your gain however you think is correct, not my stuff
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post #84 of 122 Old 06-19-2015, 04:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't have done it that way. I would set the SW trim to -5dB and left the output levels of the miniDSP at 0dB.
Ah, that's a simple fix. Any fix that doesn't necessitate re-running Audyssey again is a simple fix. ;-) After running the Audyssey calibration, it left my sub output at -4.5 db. So, I have room to adjust down, and I can adjust back to 0 in the miniDSP.

I did some REW measurements.

#1 - Post Audyssey (to see how well Audyssey did)
#2 - Post Audyssey, but with Audyssey turned off
#3 - Audysset still off, but REW suggested EQ loaded into miniDSP
#4 - After *another* full Audyssey calibration to see if it could improve with the help of the miniDSP

I'll have to get the pictures uploaded, but the short answer is that the miniDSP *did* help. The comparison between #1 and #4 shows a slightly smoother low end.

I think I just wait for the Dirac unit now?
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post #85 of 122 Old 06-19-2015, 04:54 AM
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If you're applying any sort of boosts in the miniDSP as part of your EQ'ing filters I would leave just it alone. -4.5dB in the receiver is fine for listening up to -5dB on the MV and having the miniDSP turned down by 5dB will help prevent clipping due to the EQ'ing.
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post #86 of 122 Old 06-19-2015, 06:43 AM
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If you haven't measured the signal output and made sure its 0dbu at the maximum volume that the rest of your system can handle (also the boosted EQ locations), then you won't be able to safely go to the max potential of your system. If you aren't going to push the limits on these subwoofers and the rest of the system, why would you go with such hardware instead of something cheaper that can move just as much air at low volume?
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post #87 of 122 Old 06-19-2015, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
If you haven't measured the signal output and made sure its 0dbu at the maximum volume that the rest of your system can handle (also the boosted EQ locations), then you won't be able to safely go to the max potential of your system. If you aren't going to push the limits on these subwoofers and the rest of the system, why would you go with such hardware instead of something cheaper that can move just as much air at low volume?
Was this a rhetorical question? If not, as I stated earlier, I'm willing to do the measurements, I just don't know how. How, exactly, would I "measure the signal output and made sure its 0dbu at the maximum volume that the rest of your system can handle (also the boosted EQ locations)"?

I watched some blu-ray bass demos at -5db from reference, and the system is doing a damn fine job of filling the room with sound. What I don't know is how safe my subs are at that level, and, if they are safe, how much headroom do I have over and above that level.
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post #88 of 122 Old 06-19-2015, 09:02 AM
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I watched some blu-ray bass demos at -5db from reference, and the system is doing a damn fine job of filling the room with sound. What I don't know is how safe my subs are at that level, and, if they are safe, how much headroom do I have over and above that level.
If you don't hear bad noises from the subs and you're not clipping the amp you have more headroom. One way to find out how much is to keep turning up the volume until one of those two things happens and noting the volume increase. You could also play sine waves and measure the voltage from the amp across the driver and calculate how many more dB of output would get you to the voltage that correspond to the max power level that's safe for your boxes. You would not want to play the sine wave for long periods of time. Just long enough to get a voltage reading. You will also need a True RMS voltage meter. This is actually not that easy to do since the normal test tones from REW will not be in the .1 / LFE channel, but your L and/or R channel and will be routed through the bass management and will end up being 10dB quieter. If you have an oscilloscope you could look at the peak voltage going to the sub while playing your demo material. Depending on the amp and how it's wired (if it's bridged) you might need a high voltage differential scope probe though.

Keep in mind that at some point you will start clipping the SW output from the Denon, or the output from the miniDSP.
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post #89 of 122 Old 06-19-2015, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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If you don't hear bad noises from the subs and you're not clipping the amp you have more headroom. One way to find out how much is to keep turning up the volume until one of those two things happens and noting the volume increase. You could also play sine waves and measure the voltage from the amp across the driver and calculate how many more dB of output would get you to the voltage that correspond to the max power level that's safe for your boxes. You would not want to play the sine wave for long periods of time. Just long enough to get a voltage reading. You will also need a True RMS voltage meter. This is actually not that easy to do since the normal test tones from REW will not be in the .1 / LFE channel, but your L and/or R channel and will be routed through the bass management and will end up being 10dB quieter. If you have an oscilloscope you could look at the peak voltage going to the sub while playing your demo material. Depending on the amp and how it's wired (if it's bridged) you might need a high voltage differential scope probe though.

Keep in mind that at some point you will start clipping the SW output from the Denon, or the output from the miniDSP.
Interesting...It certainly sounds like I don't have the right equipment to actually do this.

No bad sounds, and no real desire to go much louder. I'm also a slight bit worried about the fact that I am driving my front sound stage with a 400WPC amp, and that's more than the speakers are rated for. As I understand it, I'm unlikely to blow anything up, but no real reason to go louder than I'd ever listen anyway, right?
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post #90 of 122 Old 06-19-2015, 09:54 AM
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2 kits: 355*2 = 710
2 mounting kits: 2.50 * 2 = 5
2 binding posts: 5.50*2 = 11
Glue, Paint, Other Misc finishing materials: 50
Misc other stuff I forgot to consider: 50
Used iNuke 6000: 220, shipped
@KevinG you did an awesome job!!! So much so that I think I'll follow your steps for the Ultimax 15" kit that I just purchased from PE. I considered the 18" kit but though that was a little over-kill for my master bedroom.

Just a few questions if you could help me out. What are the "2 mounting kits" that you purchased from PE?

What color or shade of color Restore4x did you choose to go with? I noticed online that there are several to choose from.

I was thinking of purchasing a Crown amplifier because it has normal speaker outputs. I'm ignorant on how to wire an iNuke amplifier to the normal binding posts. I actually don't even know what normal is anymore as I've read so many are advocating for an iNuke for a sub amplifier. If you could do it over again would you purchase an iNuke? If so would you opt for the DSP version? How did you connect the iNuke to the sub terminals?

Thanks for any help! Again, great job and thanks for documenting your build so thoroughly!
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