SVS out, two DIY 18's in. Initial impressions... - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 134 Old 08-20-2015, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
Well, I'm not very experienced and there are lots of people here more qualified than me on this topic, but here are my two cents.

I built four LMSU in sealed. They are mega stellar down low, but in the midbass they just don't cut it if you're after massive chest pounding action. They will pound you, no doubt, but not to the same level some pro midbass drivers will.

Expanded on the quad LMSU with four sealed midbass modules with JBL 2226. They will pound you red, purple and blue. The tactile feel of the punch is around 75 Hz for me personally (depends on your anatomy), but the sound of the punch is higher. If you have the punch without the audible part of it, it won't be perceived as snappy. The sound of the punch is far higher than the actual physical midbass punch. I've tried slowly lowpassing until the audible part of the punch disappear, and found that a lot of the info is upwards to 400 Hz, and even above that, especially with kickdrums.

First priority is to make sure you don't have a large suckout within the 60-200 hz region. That's a very important region for most of the punch. 40 Hz is approx where you get pounded in the stomach, btw.

Another thing I've found is that if I run the sub bass hotter (40 Hz down) all things equal, the lesser the midbass impact will be. I've thought a lot about why adding gain to the sub bass will affect lessen the midbass punch and tactile feel and come to a hypothesis I'm not able to prove or disprove due to lack of knowledge. The hypothesis is that as the sub bass becomes relatively louder the sound of the punch is less perceptible, and secondly, that the sub bass moves the air particles such that the transfer of the tactile mid bass can't penetrate through.

So if your frequency response doesn't have large suckouts in the midbass region it's a game of balance between three things. Sub bass, midbass and the audible range of the punch which lies far higher.

Again, these are just my experiences this far and don't know if they're worth the storage space it occupies on AVS' servers.

great post. not sure if your theories are right or not, but paragraphs 3-4 should be required reading. :-)

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post #32 of 134 Old 08-20-2015, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post
The bad news, or I guess disappointing news at this point is that the sound quality to me isn't as good.
that sucks.

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post #33 of 134 Old 08-20-2015, 05:17 AM
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...just kidding.


first thoughts are to ensure the sub has no low pass filter other than what is coming from the avr.


eq the sub to be flat out to about 200hz before incorporating it into the avr/mains system.


changing locations in the room from the old sub to the new sub can result in different reflections/cancellations, so without any measuring it is kind of tough to say what you are hearing from one to another.


be sure that the sub and the mains are properly time aligned.


i'm obviously disappointed that you aren't happy, so i'll help if I can to resolve the issues one at a time.

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post #34 of 134 Old 08-20-2015, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply. You've been extremely helpful over the last several months throughout this journey of mine into the DIY world. Much appreciated.

There is no low pass filter selected on the inuke (it's off); I'm only using what's coming from my Denon AVR.

Last night I unhooked my second sub and only ran the single UXL-18 in the exact same spot as my old SVS Plus/2. I'm not so sure that cancellation issues are the case as I couldn't detect a significant difference. Certainly a little less output running one sub compared to two, but I didn't really think there was a difference in sound quality in running 1 sub (same spot as the old one) verses two.

How do I make sure the mains and subs are properly time aligned? Doesn't Audyssey handle that? Obviously I still have EQ to do which of course could be a big issue... I guess I was just expecting more "out of the box" but I'm confident I'm not at the end result yet.
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post #35 of 134 Old 08-20-2015, 06:40 PM
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I would not trust audyssey to get anything perfect. It gets close, but not where you could manually do it better. Audyssey and I have a love hate relationship lol.

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post #36 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 02:02 AM
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the pb12/plus2 is natively flat out past 200hz. if possible, try to get the uxl's eq'd that way. a good chunk of the difference in sound quality that you are describing could be that the new subs are naturally rolling off sooner and as a result don't have as much of the higher frequencies as what you had before.





to time align the subs and the mains, flip the polarity on the subs and run a test-tone at the crossover frequency. adjust the distance/delay until the sound is as cancelled out as possible. then flip polarity back.
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post #37 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 04:30 AM
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I can definitely vouch for the fact that two Stonehenge subs put out a large overabundance of 15 to 50Hz bass in a medium (23') room that has no bass traps. I have to eq this whole region on mine down by 10 to 15dB to get the 50-100Hz range at the same levels. Without the eq, the bass hurts the ears and there's very little body impact. With eq, I get the sound/feeling I'd been searching for years for. I was beginning to think chest pounding bass at reasonable listening levels couldn't be achieved in a typical room in a house, but now I know it can .
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post #38 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeng View Post
I can definitely vouch for the fact that two Stonehenge subs put out a large overabundance of 15 to 50Hz bass in a medium (23') room that has no bass traps. I have to eq this whole region on mine down by 10 to 15dB to get the 50-100Hz range at the same levels. Without the eq, the bass hurts the ears and there's very little body impact. With eq, I get the sound/feeling I'd been searching for years for. I was beginning to think chest pounding bass at reasonable listening levels couldn't be achieved in a typical room in a house, but now I know it can .
So many factors to consider. The difference between rooms is the biggest one.

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post #39 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Definitely need to get some EQ going. Those of you that have done lots of EQ in your day, is it really necessary to purchase a microphone (they seem costly) or is going with the SPL meter / test tones method acceptable? I've never done this before so if anyone wants to give a quick rundown of the process that would be helpful, or if there's a thread that goes through it if a link could be shared to it I would appreciate that as well. Thanks.
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post #40 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post
Definitely need to get some EQ going. Those of you that have done lots of EQ in your day, is it really necessary to purchase a microphone (they seem costly) or is going with the SPL meter / test tones method acceptable? I've never done this before so if anyone wants to give a quick rundown of the process that would be helpful, or if there's a thread that goes through it if a link could be shared to it I would appreciate that as well. Thanks.
Mic for sure! go to cross spectrum labs and get a calibrated mic. They are about the same price as buying the mic from minidsp or partsexpress. Download REW too. That has a lot of tools that you can use and it is a great program.

What are you going to use to eq?

Read this:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ow-thread.html

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post #41 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post

Location... I have one of my new boxes in the same exact location as the Plus/2, and the other is in the adjacent corner (front corners of the room) so both are an equal distance from the LP. I guess that could be resulting in some cancellation. One thing I could try is unhooking the sub that's in the new location and just run the single UXL-18 enclosure that's where the Plus/2 was and see if that changes anything.
.
If you have your subs in the front corners and the LP centered on the width then they are equidistant from the LP and won't cancel each other. They may need to be time aligned with your mains to cross over to them properly. This could account for the perceived lack of mid bass/chest pound.

A related possibility is that the subs roll off early on the high and may need some boost there to crossover to the mains properly

The other possibility is that you are sitting in a longitudinal null. Try different listening positions closer to or further from the front.
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post #42 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mpg View Post
This is a great thread. I built a couple ported marty boxes and I feel like Im in the same boat as you. I had a SVS PB12NSD so a little less punch than the plus. I appreciate everyones responses here, Im going to have to try to measure distance to the MLP and see if I need a delay. I feel like my system should have more punch. Audyssey tries to set my sub at -10. My REW graphs arent impressive and need some work. Im hoping that a slight delay will help out.
If Audyssey is setting your sub trim to -10 you need to lower your sub gains and re-calibrate. I shoot for somewhere between -4 and 0.

Then after full calibration, if necessary, bump up the sub trim on the AVR to taste.

Sub builds: Yet another Infinity 1260 build | Twins! | Modified V.B.S.S. build | UM12-22 builds | AV stand and sealed UM18s

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post #43 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots
Definitely need to get some EQ going. Those of you that have done lots of EQ in your day, is it really necessary to purchase a microphone (they seem costly) or is going with the SPL meter / test tones method acceptable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction
Mic for sure!
Definitely. Even a lower cost USB mic such as the Samson Go Mic with REW will give you a lot more information than an SPL meter alone.

But be warned: That's a whole 'nother rabbit hole! Ask me how I know...
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post #44 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
Mic for sure! go to cross spectrum labs and get a calibrated mic. They are about the same price as buying the mic from minidsp or partsexpress. Download REW too. That has a lot of tools that you can use and it is a great program.

What are you going to use to eq?

Read this:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ow-thread.html

I second this. A mic is worth it's weight in gold for setting up subs, both EQing and setting delay. It's an amazingly useful tool. I've used mine a ton.
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post #45 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 07:16 AM
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if cash is really tight, the old radio shack digital spl meter can be used. not too shabby for bass measurement. lots of them on ebay for less than $20.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/radio-shack-...-/291543701745

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post #46 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNC View Post
If you have your subs in the front corners and the LP centered on the width then they are equidistant from the LP and won't cancel each other. They may need to be time aligned with your mains to cross over to them properly. This could account for the perceived lack of mid bass/chest pound.

A related possibility is that the subs roll off early on the high and may need some boost there to crossover to the mains properly

The other possibility is that you are sitting in a longitudinal null. Try different listening positions closer to or further from the front.
Yes, both subs are in the front corners of the room and the main listening position is centered between them on the rear wall. My sectional is against the rear wall so moving back my LP is not an option, and moving it forward isn't practical is it would require moving a huge sectional forward.

My LP is centered along the 17.5' rear wall, and my front right sub is about 15.5' from my right ear and my front left sub is 15.5' from my left ear.
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post #47 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Definitely. Even a lower cost USB mic such as the Samson Go Mic with REW will give you a lot more information than an SPL meter alone.

But be warned: That's a whole 'nother rabbit hole! Ask me how I know...
40 bucks isn't bad if that will do the trick. I just didn't really want to spend $75-$125 on a mic that once I'm done calibrating will likely just sit in a box forever. I have no plans on moving or rearranging my room so once things are set they should be set for a very long time.
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post #48 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post
Definitely need to get some EQ going. Those of you that have done lots of EQ in your day, is it really necessary to purchase a microphone (they seem costly) or is going with the SPL meter / test tones method acceptable? I've never done this before so if anyone wants to give a quick rundown of the process that would be helpful, or if there's a thread that goes through it if a link could be shared to it I would appreciate that as well. Thanks.
Attempting to mess with EQ without a calibrated mic + REW is a recipe for disaster IMHO. First, your SPL meter is a complete unknown with it's frequency response and it will take forever to try to measure your response by hand one tone at a time and you need to do it over and over and over to get things dialed in.
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post #49 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 08:23 AM
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Another option is to buy the mic and get everything setup correctly, then sell the mic. Looks like they're selling pretty quick in the classifieds.

But you'll probably keep it once you start to tinker around with it.

It's amazing how much placement matters. You could take a othorn and put it in the wrong spot in your room and it would sound terrible.
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post #50 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 08:49 AM
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Closely following as I have been considering DIY vs an ID sub for quite a long time now

Front L&R: Polk RTi A3 (cherry finish)
Center: Polk CSi A6 (cherry finish)
Surrounds: Polk FXi A6 (black finish)
Subwoofer: Dual Sealed SI-HT 18" with iNuke 3000dsp
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V673
TV: 55" LCD
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post #51 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 09:06 AM
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I think a Umik1 would help determine issues, and I found it very helpful to actually SEE what was happening, which made smoothing it out with the 3KDsp pretty simple using REW.
Costs <100, and considering how much time and $ is spent on gear, is well worth it...at least to me.

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
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post #52 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 09:06 AM
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A pair of sealed UM18's put a real hurting on my old SVS PB12/Plus2, something is definitely amiss in your setup and it's not the subs.
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post #53 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
if cash is really tight, the old radio shack digital spl meter can be used. not too shabby for bass measurement. lots of them on ebay for less than $20.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/radio-shack-...-/291543701745
This with Tony Gomez' spreadsheet that simulates a Behringer Feedback Destroyer and test tones matching the frequencies of the spreadsheet is exactly what I used. It's time consuming but it is the cheapest way to go.
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post #54 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rlj5242 View Post
This with Tony Gomez' spreadsheet that simulates a Behringer Feedback Destroyer and test tones matching the frequencies of the spreadsheet is exactly what I used. It's time consuming but it is the cheapest way to go.
It's also wholly inaccurate due to unit to unit variation and the fact the Radio Shack meters aren't flat.
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post #55 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 10:55 AM
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Before I got into diy the past few weeks, I read the Rew thread from start to finish and most of Mark Seatons and mtg's post regarding multiple Sub setup. In my opinion, everyone who decides to dabble into DIY should learn how to measure and learn the basic fundamentals of setup/eq. What you're hearing is quantifiable and can easily be corrected with the help of the kind folks on here if we're able to get a baseline to "see" what you're hearing. I came from commercial subs (vtf15mk2 and gamma218) and although those subs sounded pretty good out of the box, my diy setup is night and day better both in output and snap after setup.

My experience with Marty subs after I was able to get a flat response +/-2db from 12-80hz was that it sounded just ok with music. Using rew, I was able to find 2 things which helped me take it from ok to awesome!
1) waterfall showed ringing. Investment: $100 to build more corner bass traps
2) mains needed time delay for proper integration. Investment: 20mins to read the PDF and another 15mins to implement

The information on this is vast and available in this forum. My recommendation to you is bite the bullet and spend the $85 to get a umik1 and learn rew (takes an hour following the guide). Once you're done, you can always sell your mic used to recoup the cost. It's a minor investment to get you to a happier place. Besides, you've already saved a bunch of money going diy.

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post #56 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 11:11 AM
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I want to add to your post @lz7j that eq is not just for diy. It is very important to any speaker/ integration.

and @BrutalBodyShots when you do buy a mic ( I know you will because you need one) don't sell it when you are finished tuning! You will need it again for sure whenever you change something in you setup.

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post #57 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok so time for me to score a mic. Is the Samson one recommended up in post 43 for $40 sufficient for my application or is it really necessary to splurge for a more expensive model?

Once I get it ordered I'll have some reading to do in the meantime... some good info and threads mentioned above. I appreciate the help thus far.
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post #58 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post
Ok so time for me to score a mic. Is the Samson one recommended up in post 43 for $40 sufficient for my application or is it really necessary to splurge for a more expensive model?
Don't be a cheap bastard (yes, I know it's in the DIY'ers creed) when it come to measuring. IMHO, this is the minimum you want for a mic.
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post #59 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 11:39 AM
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post #60 of 134 Old 08-21-2015, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
It's also wholly inaccurate due to unit to unit variation and the fact the Radio Shack meters aren't flat.
It does have a generic correction for the analog meter. The variances between analog meters will make it a little off but it's better than nothing until better equipment is purchases. Yes, I have calibrated mic now.
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