CyclÊ?ps 18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Cyclʘps 18

A detailed plan was requested for what shall be known as the CYCLʘPS 18!











































I have double and triple checked the numbers, but if somebody else could confirm, that would be appreciated.

Enjoy,

John
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post #2 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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2pi response with Dayton RSS460HO driver and 1100 watts power (response with Dayton UM18 using data-bass measured t/s specs would be virtually identical). Usable excursion is roughly reached (on the 460HO) with this power level (UM18 has a little more left in the tank) and port velocity is about 22 m/s (chuffing noise should be low to nil).


This cab would also work well with the Mach 5 UXL18 and the SI HST-18.

Dayton drivers in green. UXL in black. HST18 in red.






Cut sheet friendly. 4x8 panels. Two sheets required to build one cab. Just be aware that MDF tends to be 49"x97" so you may need to trim off an inch off of each end.









If making two cabs, the panels will fit on three 4x8 sheets. However, the bracing would require additional lumber. Pine stock that is 1"x3" x 8' (actually 0.75"x2.5" x 8') can be used to make the window braces by cutting to length and gluing the 4 pieces together in order to form each window brace. Cutting them a quarter inch short might make assembly easier. There will be plenty of overlap to glue them together and there won't be any worry about the bracing being slightly too large for the inside of the cabinet.



For two cabs, six boards would be required. They would be cut into 32 pieces. 4 pieces for each brace. 4 braces for each cab. Two cabs. This would be one way to chop them up:




By using the scraps from the MDF panels to cut some of the bracing sections, the number of extra boards required may be less than 6.


For two cabs, the total number of window bracing sections is 32. You will need:
8 sections that are 13" long
16 sections that are 15.75" long
8 sections that are 18.75" long
These can then be glued into the cab as it is being constructed to form the 4 window braces per cab.


Generic man with clʘps!




A symmetrical pair of clʘps!




:-)
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post #3 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks brian. not sure what happened. are they coming through now?

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post #4 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
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thanks brian. not sure what happened. are they coming through now?
I can see them fine
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post #5 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
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thanks brian. not sure what happened. are they coming through now?
It's working now. Curiosity, how does it perform against a Full Marty? Looks like similar size, but designed horizontally.
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post #6 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 11:03 AM
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thanks brian. not sure what happened. are they coming through now?
I see them using the mobile site on my iPhone.
Nice design, LTD02!
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post #7 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 11:10 AM
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See it now. Thank you! What if we wanted to make it wider and 9cft for the Ultimax?
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post #8 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by likelinus View Post
It's working now. Curiosity, how does it perform against a Full Marty? Looks like similar size, but designed horizontally.
this one would perform pretty much like the mini-marty as they are roughly the same size and tuning, just a different form factor. the full marty isn't really required for this driver, but would give just a hair more output on the very low end.

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post #9 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 11:20 AM
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this one would perform pretty much like the mini-marty as they are roughly the same size and tuning, just a different form factor. the full marty isn't really required for this driver, but would give just a hair more output on the very low end.
Awesome. Nice design and great job as always.
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post #10 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 11:47 AM
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post #11 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 12:23 PM
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+1

You have made it so easy Im now rethinking my all sealed plans..........trying to imagine four of these in a 2000cft room.......
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post #12 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 01:26 PM
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John (@@LTD02;)-

As always you hit it out of the park! I love the write up and all of the great imagery. I really appreciate all that you do for the community.
I have the MDF and the bracing for this and hope to be making sawdust soon, i'll try to take some pics and do a build thread if it would help, but I think
the OP is perfect!

Eric
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post #13 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ericnhitterdal View Post
...
I have the MDF and the bracing for this and hope to be making sawdust soon, i'll try to take some pics and do a build thread if it would help, but I thinkthe OP is perfect!
...
awesome!

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post #14 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 01:58 PM
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A detailed plan was requested for what shall be known as the CYCLʘPS 18!
This is another in a series of good designs from you. Appealing in both form and function.

If you could please excuse the diversion though, I wonder why you don't show the large coil inductance effects in the sims?

Now that we know a regular sim using any of these large coil drivers won't accurately reflect a proper outdoors measurement and we know how to simulate them much more accurately (thanks in large part to your own contributions) why not show the inductance effects, or at least show with and without the effect? I can understand showing it without the effect since most people won't simulate the effect on their own and will be confused when your sim doesn't match theirs, but this box with these drivers simply will not measure as your sims predict, as you know. Even with the inductance effect factored in this design sims well so why not show it?

Just for my own curiosity I did my own sims and they look pretty good. It's a simple sim, a lot more factors could be simulated more accurately, but it does take more into account than WinISD.
Dayton UM is on the left, Mach 5 UXL on the right.
In both cases the blue line is without inductance effect, red line is with inductance effect.
There's a considerable difference in FR with and without inductance effect (not that it matters much since almost all in room applications will require eq anyway), but the red line is a much more accurate sim.

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post #15 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 04:40 PM
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Newbie question here, but how does the Dayton 460 driver compete with the UXL-18 in output when it's got roughly 1/3 of the excursion capability? I do believe it's sensitivity is a bit higher, but I would think it would be excursion limited.
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post #16 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by diy speaker guy View Post
If you could please excuse the diversion though, I wonder why you don't show the large coil inductance effects in the sims?

i think the basic sim is "good enough" for the purpose that it is serving here. there isn't any power compression baked in either and that will show up as power gets maxed out and/or excursion gets maxed out.


in many cases hornresp rolls off the top end a little more than measurements show and tuning peaks/port resonances are not as bad as hornresp predicts, so it isn't quite ideal either. for something like the um18, chaluga built and measured the comparably sized and tuned martysub with that driver and we compared against the basic winisd model. i think it was around a db or so within basic sim, so somewhere in between the basic sim and the inductance adjusted sim that you posted. the 460ho was measured in a full marty by mhutchins and it was close enough to call accurate with no adjustment. i can appreciate wanting to get as accurate as possible, but for its purpose here, my opinion is the basic sims are "good enough".


folks should also be aware that once a sub (any sub) is placed in a room, they form a system with reflections and resonances creating peaks and nulls contributing, frequently, +/- 5db or more across the bass response, so the room will impact the outcome much more than any further refinement in the model, at least in my humble opinion.

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post #17 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post
Newbie question here, but how does the Dayton 460 driver compete with the UXL-18 in output when it's got roughly 1/3 of the excursion capability? I do believe it's sensitivity is a bit higher, but I would think it would be excursion limited.

each driver will ultimately be limited by its power handling and/or its excursion. also the way that xmax is specified for the 460ho is different than for the uxl and hst. the usable excursion on the 460ho is right around 20mm as tested by josh at data-bass.


the um18 has a little more xmax than the 460ho, so if you put a little more gas on it, you will get more flame.


the uxl18 and hst18 have a little more xmax than the um18, so if you put even more gas on them, you will get even more flame.


i wouldn't go more than 2kw power with any of these drivers, so the um and the uxl/hst will give somewhere around 2-3 db more output than the 460ho, roughly.


the example was simply with 1100 watts into each driver. that happens to be about enough to take the 460ho to its excursion limits. some folks are running 2kw or so on the um and uxl and others are running even a bit more on the hst coils.
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post #18 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 05:45 PM
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i think the basic sim is "good enough" for the purpose that it is serving here. there isn't any power compression baked in either and that will show up as power gets maxed out and/or excursion gets maxed out.


in many cases hornresp rolls off the top end a little more than measurements show and tuning peaks/port resonances are not as bad as hornresp predicts, so it isn't quite ideal either. for something like the um18, chaluga built and measured the comparably sized and tuned martysub with that driver and we compared against the basic winisd model. i think it was around a db or so within basic sim, so somewhere in between the basic sim and the inductance adjusted sim that you posted. the 460ho was measured in a full marty by mhutchins and it was close enough to call accurate with no adjustment. i can appreciate wanting to get as accurate as possible, but for its purpose here, my opinion is the basic sims are "good enough".


folks should also be aware that once a sub (any sub) is placed in a room, they form a system with reflections and resonances creating peaks and nulls contributing, frequently, +/- 5db or more across the bass response, so the room will impact the outcome much more than any further refinement in the model, at least in my humble opinion.
Fair enough, and by the way, if you have readily available links to measurements of any of these drivers in ported enclosures I'd like them. I don't follow all the threads but I do like to see actual measurements and it's really hard to search for a particular measurement. I'd be pretty surprised if a non compensated sim was closer to a measurement than a compensated sim.
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post #19 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 06:28 PM
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Nice write up! Will this design scale into the mini-cyclops and cyclops-cube?

I'm shocked you didn't add a graphic of generic guy standing next to this cab.
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post #20 of 177 Old 10-12-2015, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Nice write up! Will this design scale into the mini-cyclops and cyclops-cube?

I'm shocked you didn't add a graphic of generic guy standing next to this cab.

CYCLʘPS are big and mean. no scaling down. ;-)


as for the generic guy...great point... i almost jinxed the whole thing. added!

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post #21 of 177 Old 10-14-2015, 07:56 AM
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Down firing Ultimax?

Hey guys, I'm going to be building these soon. I have an room that is 15' wide by 32' by 8' high ceiling and am planning on a 150" ish screen. I originally wanted to have these firing forward, but the height of 24" cuts into the screen size. I may still just front fire them and make the screen a bit smaller (145" diagonal gives me 71" vertical and 126" horizontal)

Is it ok to down fire the Ultimax 18"

I've read that the sag factor is 3% (and that anything under 5% should be fine). Just wondering if others have had any issues with down firing these subs.
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post #22 of 177 Old 10-14-2015, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ericnhitterdal View Post
Hey guys, I'm going to be building these soon. I have an room that is 15' wide by 32' by 8' high ceiling and am planning on a 150" ish screen. I originally wanted to have these firing forward, but the height of 24" cuts into the screen size. I may still just front fire them and make the screen a bit smaller (145" diagonal gives me 71" vertical and 126" horizontal)

Is it ok to down fire the Ultimax 18"

I've read that the sag factor is 3% (and that anything under 5% should be fine). Just wondering if others have had any issues with down firing these subs.
why not do a AT screen and put them behind it? You have the room depth
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post #23 of 177 Old 10-14-2015, 08:33 AM
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why not do a AT screen and put them behind it? You have the room depth
I am doing an AT screen with 1099's behind it. I'm doing an in-wall-ish build using the 1099's, which will be protruding from the wall a bit and i'll be building a frame around the protruding part of the 1099s and will put an AT screen out the front of that.. So my only option is for the subs to be below.

I can't build a full baffle wall as one side of where the screen will be opens into a doorway (with no door currently).
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post #24 of 177 Old 10-14-2015, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ericnhitterdal View Post
I am doing an AT screen with 1099's behind it. I'm doing an in-wall-ish build using the 1099's, which will be protruding from the wall a bit and i'll be building a frame around the protruding part of the 1099s and will put an AT screen out the front of that.. So my only option is for the subs to be below.

I can't build a full baffle wall as one side of where the screen will be opens into a doorway (with no door currently).
Well, the only solution is to make the screen wall past that doorway and then put another door in!!!

but seriously. I think PE had said not to have the UM-18 downfiring. The 460 would be good though.
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post #25 of 177 Old 10-14-2015, 08:53 AM
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Well, the only solution is to make the screen wall past that doorway and then put another door in!!!

but seriously. I think PE had said not to have the UM-18 downfiring. The 460 would be good though.

Don't get me wrong, i'd love to have a full baffle wall, I just can't do it, and don't want to waste all that space there as there is an opening to the right and to the left of where the screen will be.

I will just compromise on the screen size and proceed with the ultimax/cyclops as planned.

thanks

Eric
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post #26 of 177 Old 10-14-2015, 03:35 PM
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is it ok to use the cyclops with ixl-18 / zv4 18?


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post #27 of 177 Old 10-19-2015, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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is it ok to use the cyclops with ixl-18 / zv4 18?

the ixl-18 should be fine (very similar response as the others posted above). not sure about the zv4 18.

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post #28 of 177 Old 10-19-2015, 09:13 AM
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thanks sir


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post #29 of 177 Old 11-03-2015, 09:19 AM
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Any issues if this design is stood up vertically? So the port blows out the top? Thanks.
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post #30 of 177 Old 11-03-2015, 09:29 AM
 
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Any issues if this design is stood up vertically? So the port blows out the top? Thanks.
It may be less stable / be more prone to rocking if it's on thick carpet. But there is no mechanical reason that you can't.
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