Driver Advice: Multi-driver tall narrow build to fill huge room volume - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 27 Old 10-27-2015, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Driver Advice: Multi-driver tall narrow build to fill huge room volume

I tried to be as descriptive as I could in the title... I'm looking for advice on choosing a driver to build two multi-driver tall narrow subs to fill a huge room volume.

Let me clarify, I'm thinking of 4 each 8" or 10" drivers per sub. So a total of 8 drivers in two enclosures that will be narrow in width (under 12" wide), front firing and as tall as necessary (within reason... 8' sheet of mdf seems like a reasonable max). Depth can be up to about 20".

My wife is complaining about a 13" cubed Sunfire Signature series dual 12" driver sitting in the corner of the room. I am unhappy about the amount of bass and would like a winter project. I have a large (11' tall) built in/on wall entertainment center. There is about 1' on either side that could accommodate a floor standing subwoofer.

I'm hoping for a reasonably priced driver since I will be using 8 of them, the Dayton HO 10" is $130, which is a bit daunting but is not totally out of the question. Immediate room volume is roughly 12,500 cu ft. but opens up to a couple hallways, and living room. It could push 20,000 cu ft if I include those spaces.

I have an inuke DSP3000 that I was thinking of using to drive them. If someone has experience with a great performing, high power 8" or 10", budget speaker I'd appreciate some input!?!?

Thanks in advance!

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Last edited by AI Limited; 10-27-2015 at 02:59 PM. Reason: added "Budget" to the wish list...
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post #2 of 27 Old 10-27-2015, 02:30 PM
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You could fit 9 10" subs or 11 8" subs, so I think you'd be better off with the 10" route, even if you did 8. The 10s will offer much more output for your room size.

Dayton certainly has some budget offerings in the 10" size. To help make a choice, do you plan on going ported or sealed? The best 10" I'm aware of on the market is the creative sound (CSS) SDX10 subwoofer. It's a little over your budget, but might be able to get a break cause the US dollar is up on the CAD right now, and you'd be buying quite a few. I think it would likely offer the most performance for your application of just about everything out there I'm aware of.
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post #3 of 27 Old 10-27-2015, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
You could fit 9 10" subs or 11 8" subs, so I think you'd be better off with the 10" route, even if you did 8. The 10s will offer much more output for your room size.

Dayton certainly has some budget offerings in the 10" size. To help make a choice, do you plan on going ported or sealed? The best 10" I'm aware of on the market is the creative sound (CSS) SDX10 subwoofer. It's a little over your budget, but might be able to get a break cause the US dollar is up on the CAD right now, and you'd be buying quite a few. I think it would likely offer the most performance for your application of just about everything out there I'm aware of.
Thanks for the quick response!

I usually lean towards ported, but one 10" speaker I was looking at required 2.8 cu ft per driver (up from less than 1 cu ft sealed) so I'm undecided. I looked at some F3 specs for the 10 vs the 8 and agree that the 10 will go much deeper with more output. Right now I'm set up for a single sub and was only doing 2 subs for aesthetics and sound (room modes). 8 of the SDX10's seems out of my price range as they are $168 on fleabay. That's $1300 for drivers alone, another $100 in materials, plus the amp. I'm thinking more like, will any of the $50 10" drivers work or is the $136 dayton already unrealistic? Maybe I should add "budget" to the title? Lol...

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post #4 of 27 Old 10-27-2015, 04:16 PM
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I think 20000 cu. ft. and budget are mutually exclusive, here.

Are you sure you couldn't squeeze another inch in width? There are some inexpensive 12" drivers that would work... namely the Infinity 1260 (or 1262 ?) at around $65 or less / each.
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post #5 of 27 Old 10-27-2015, 06:26 PM
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The first thing that comes to mind is a pair of tall single fold tapped horns. I don't know of any designed to fit the space but it might be the time to learn horn resp. The volume of bass vs the cost of 2 drivers and amplification really defines budget build. IMO this is the way to go but you will need help from people that know hornresp of which I am not one.

On the big array front I would be combing the car sub catalogs for a suitable driver, the Infinity 1060/1062 and the Alpine SWS 10 would be my first budget choices to model. When using arge numbers of individual drivers the economics of scale in car sub manufacturing often provides the best budget drivers. I will say most people will want to hide car subs behind grill cloth since many are rather garish for the home.

In the end the single fold tapped horn will probably be the best budget approach. It will however require much more work on the design and build end than sealed or ported.
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post #6 of 27 Old 10-27-2015, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlhungdude View Post
I think 20000 cu. ft. and budget are mutually exclusive, here.

Are you sure you couldn't squeeze another inch in width? There are some inexpensive 12" drivers that would work... namely the Infinity 1260 (or 1262 ?) at around $65 or less / each.
He could mount the drivers on the side.
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post #7 of 27 Old 10-27-2015, 07:36 PM
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I had thought about building a line array for omnidirectional fill-in sound using a few nice midranges and tweeters I had. Here are a few of the interesting things I remember seeing.

Roger Russell's IDS-25 line array has a really small footprint and supposed to be incredible sound. He also describes some other line arrays:
www.roger-russell.com/columns/columns.htm
www.roger-russell.com/ids/ids.htm

Parts Express has an awesome looking array kit that's way out of my price range:
www.parts-express.com/audio-artistry-cbt36k-line-array-speaker-pair-kit--301-980
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post #8 of 27 Old 10-27-2015, 07:47 PM
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with 12x20, the internal dimensions are only 10.5x18.5, that means you get about 1.25 cu feet of cab volume per foot of cab height. that's pretty small for cabs that need to fill a giant room.


how about an infinite baffle, is that a possibility?
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post #9 of 27 Old 10-27-2015, 08:17 PM
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I would look at using 4 infinity 1062w drivers per side which should be comparable to running a pair of high excursion 21" pro sound drivers. Maybe think about splitting each side into two or four separate enclosures and stacking them to make things more manageable if you ever want to reuse them in the future so you are not stuck with an 8' tall enclosure.

23.5" high x 11.5" wide x 20" deep per box seems reasonable. Add a port, maybe the 3" precision port from parts express at full length per box which should tune in down near 20hz. Or a 1" high full width slot port that is 24-26" long.

Those drivers are a good match for the iNuke 3000 as well, wire the voice coils for each driver in series then stick the four per side in parallel and run each side off a channel of the iNuke. At ~250w each they should stay below just xmax and easily give you 120+ dB of output. $57 a driver is not too bad either.
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post #10 of 27 Old 10-27-2015, 10:47 PM
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ummm....A1... you there?

You have Tux, Ltd, and Mtg all pitching in on your thread. In the first 9 posts !! Freakin emerald in the rough !!

these guys have more knowledge in their whole body, than I could ever hope to have in my pinky finger. NO... wait... the other way around....

You better run with this build, and like your arse is on fire !! Because you have the makings of an epic system here...

Joseph

p.s. yes, it can really be that good. Do It !
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post #11 of 27 Old 10-28-2015, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wlhungdude View Post
I think 20000 cu. ft. and budget are mutually exclusive, here.

Are you sure you couldn't squeeze another inch in width? There are some inexpensive 12" drivers that would work... namely the Infinity 1260 (or 1262 ?) at around $65 or less / each.
You know, I thought I had 1' of space on my plans and barely got that... I double checked and my plans and they say 1'6" which I know I don't have, but I will have to measure because I might have 13"! That would make a big difference!!!

Edit: Measured width is "just under" 15"!!! Mutually exclusive... LOL!!! This may push the design into a sealed enclosure with a total of 8 1260's. They'd only be 4' tall, an easier sell to the wife!

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Last edited by AI Limited; 10-28-2015 at 07:58 AM.
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post #12 of 27 Old 10-28-2015, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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He could mount the drivers on the side.
Unfortunately, there is a wall on one side and an entertainment center on the other. See attached.
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post #13 of 27 Old 10-28-2015, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Retrovert View Post
I had thought about building a line array for omnidirectional fill-in sound using a few nice midranges and tweeters I had. Here are a few of the interesting things I remember seeing.

Roger Russell's IDS-25 line array has a really small footprint and supposed to be incredible sound. He also describes some other line arrays:
www.roger-russell.com/columns/columns.htm
www.roger-russell.com/ids/ids.htm

Parts Express has an awesome looking array kit that's way out of my price range:
www.parts-express.com/audio-artistry-cbt36k-line-array-speaker-pair-kit--301-980
I've seen the PE CBT36k before, those are cool. You understand where I'm going with this, but I will be using it as a subwoofer only, paired up with some (i'm embarrassed to say) Niles... but they are the Stagefront in room's, Niles attempt at high end speakers, and have good build quality ($1700 each but I only paid a fraction of that).

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post #14 of 27 Old 10-28-2015, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
with 12x20, the internal dimensions are only 10.5x18.5, that means you get about 1.25 cu feet of cab volume per foot of cab height. that's pretty small for cabs that need to fill a giant room.


how about an infinite baffle, is that a possibility?
I'm not fond of infinite baffle but if you look at the drawing I posted on a recent reply, it's not really possible anyway. Keep in mind that there needs to be some w.a.f. taken into account. If I built them 8' tall that gives me about 10 cu ft, depending on the speaker I could probably get 4 10's into that, right? I have a dedicated theater room upstairs with two 8 cu ft ported 15's if I want to do serious movie watching. The downstairs is mostly so I don't have to have a little cube sitting in the room that wifey complains about. She might also complain if I build 8' tall enclosures. In-wall's are an option but I thought it would be cool to have an array of 8's or 10's.

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post #15 of 27 Old 10-28-2015, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, here's the update:

Wifey measured for me this morning since I was already at work: I have just under 15" on both sides. 20" depth might be a little optimistic (I didn't have her measure that) so lets say 14" wide by 18.5" deep. Looks like I can fit a 12" designed to work in small air space (low Vas?)!!!! I would like a little room to pad the cabinet with felt or whatever so that it doesn't vibrate against the entertainment center or wall. Also, my baseboard sticks out about 3/4" which I'm certain my wife didn't check.

first question when I asked her to measure was, "Why, what are you going to buy?" Lol...

AI Limited

Last edited by AI Limited; 10-28-2015 at 07:55 AM.
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post #16 of 27 Old 10-28-2015, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wlhungdude View Post
ummm....A1... you there?

You have Tux, Ltd, and Mtg all pitching in on your thread. In the first 9 posts !! Freakin emerald in the rough !!

these guys have more knowledge in their whole body, than I could ever hope to have in my pinky finger. NO... wait... the other way around....

You better run with this build, and like your arse is on fire !! Because you have the makings of an epic system here...

Joseph

p.s. yes, it can really be that good. Do It !
Funny! Yes I think I got a lot of help from these guys on my last build! I'm an "early to leave work" guy... off at 2:30 - 3 pm PST, sorry for the late response, it's not due to lack of interest!!!

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post #17 of 27 Old 10-28-2015, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
I would look at using 4 infinity 1062w drivers per side which should be comparable to running a pair of high excursion 21" pro sound drivers. Maybe think about splitting each side into two or four separate enclosures and stacking them to make things more manageable if you ever want to reuse them in the future so you are not stuck with an 8' tall enclosure.

23.5" high x 11.5" wide x 20" deep per box seems reasonable. Add a port, maybe the 3" precision port from parts express at full length per box which should tune in down near 20hz. Or a 1" high full width slot port that is 24-26" long.

Those drivers are a good match for the iNuke 3000 as well, wire the voice coils for each driver in series then stick the four per side in parallel and run each side off a channel of the iNuke. At ~250w each they should stay below just xmax and easily give you 120+ dB of output. $57 a driver is not too bad either. Are you suggesting bridging the amp? (4+4+4+4 = 16 ohm per side, then parallel w/ other side = 8 ohm total load)

This is a great answer! Nice looking sub too... and I especially like the price point! Does the 14" width change your opinion? It looks like it's a car audio product, do they tailor the T/S parameters for that or is it just categorized that way because it's 4 ohm?

I'm not against an iNuke6000dsp but I was planning on buying that for the Theater room upstairs and re-using my 3000 downstairs, but I might just buy a second 3000 because I think my first build reached x-max with the smaller amp, and Audyssey has me turning my gain down all the time... or I could use a 6000 downstairs.

Also, who's got a good website to look at speakers, other than Parts-Express, they have limited brands. I assume I should be looking at JBL, Infinity, Eminance??? $57/driver is a great price point for me since I have to build it and sell the wife on the idea... so keeping it under what I can sell my other sub for would be great.

AI Limited

Last edited by AI Limited; 10-28-2015 at 07:55 AM.
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post #18 of 27 Old 10-28-2015, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PsychoM3 View Post
The first thing that comes to mind is a pair of tall single fold tapped horns. I don't know of any designed to fit the space but it might be the time to learn horn resp. The volume of bass vs the cost of 2 drivers and amplification really defines budget build. IMO this is the way to go but you will need help from people that know hornresp of which I am not one.

On the big array front I would be combing the car sub catalogs for a suitable driver, the Infinity 1060/1062 and the Alpine SWS 10 would be my first budget choices to model. When using arge numbers of individual drivers the economics of scale in car sub manufacturing often provides the best budget drivers. I will say most people will want to hide car subs behind grill cloth since many are rather garish for the home.

In the end the single fold tapped horn will probably be the best budget approach. It will however require much more work on the design and build end than sealed or ported.
You know I accidentally liked this post before reading it, and as it was towards the bottom, it answered a lot of my questions above!!! (I still like it BTW). You make a good point about budget, fewer drivers required for a tapped horn. I kind of like the flexibility of multiple smaller enclosures though. I would probably build grills to match our interior, but those garish Infinities would go with our decor anyway because we have the Z-gallery look going on. Seems like it's winISI time!

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post #19 of 27 Old 10-28-2015, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by AI Limited View Post
You know I accidentally liked this post before reading it, and as it was towards the bottom, it answered a lot of my questions above!!! (I still like it BTW). You make a good point about budget, fewer drivers required for a tapped horn. I kind of like the flexibility of multiple smaller enclosures though. I would probably build grills to match our interior, but those garish Infinities would go with our decor anyway because we have the Z-gallery look going on. Seems like it's winISI time!
First, I understand the Z-gallerie look, it dominates several of our rooms, including the one I am sitting in.

Tapped horns don't have the following they had not too long ago, it is a flavor of the month kinda thing, the space and budget just brought a single fold tapped horn to mind.

The modular build format makes a lot of sense in the long run and makes it easier to build and maneuver. I would build one long grille for a cleaner look, again unless you want to show off the drivers, I figured if your wife was unhappy with a small cube in the corner looking at multiple silver drivers might be a bigger affront.

If you have 12" of driver space I would look at the Infinity 1262, you can get a pair for $106. There are general differences between car subs and more HT oriented subs but the fact that most car subs are designed to work well in small enclosures is actually a positive for you, since your boxes will actually be small. When used alone they won't have the deep extension one wants in a HT sub but you are using multiples.

Good luck and let us know how it goes and don;t forget pictures when it gets to that point!
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Ok, here's the update:

Wifey measured for me this morning since I was already at work: I have just under 15" on both sides. 20" depth might be a little optimistic (I didn't have her measure that) so lets say 14" wide by 18.5" deep. Looks like I can fit a 12" designed to work in small air space (low Vas?)!!!! I would like a little room to pad the cabinet with felt or whatever so that it doesn't vibrate against the entertainment center or wall. Also, my baseboard sticks out about 3/4" which I'm certain my wife didn't check.

first question when I asked her to measure was, "Why, what are you going to buy?" Lol...
15x20x96 (13.5cuft) x2cabinets happens to be the same internal volume of the Ruptured Spleen (26cuft). I think you can fit 16x infinity 1260's in that space, if you stagger the subs on the front baffles, with 2x inuke6000dsp's.


Here is a link to the 1262's on sale, I got the 1260's for $54 each from the same place by calling them. Be sure of what final ohm load you want for your amp before you decide on which model.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...nce-1262W.html


Click my signature. You can build that but in 2 boxes. I'd actually suggest 2x ~4' tall boxes for each tower that you can stack to equal the exact room height.


Another option would be 6x 1262's per side. That would get you a 2.66ohm load x2 and go well with an inuke3000dsp.
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15x20x96 (13.5cuft) x2cabinets happens to be the same internal volume of the Ruptured Spleen (26cuft). I think you can fit 16x infinity 1260's in that space, if you stagger the subs on the front baffles, with 2x inuke6000dsp's.


Here is a link to the 1262's on sale, I got the 1260's for $54 each from the same place by calling them. Be sure of what final ohm load you want for your amp before you decide on which model.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...nce-1262W.html


Click my signature. You can build that but in 2 boxes. I'd actually suggest 2x ~4' tall boxes for each tower that you can stack to equal the exact room height.


Another option would be 6x 1262's per side. That would get you a 2.66ohm load x2 and go well with an inuke3000dsp.
Holy crap!

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Originally Posted by PsychoM3 View Post
First, I understand the Z-gallerie look, it dominates several of our rooms, including the one I am sitting in.

Tapped horns don't have the following they had not too long ago, it is a flavor of the month kinda thing, the space and budget just brought a single fold tapped horn to mind.

The modular build format makes a lot of sense in the long run and makes it easier to build and maneuver. I would build one long grille for a cleaner look, again unless you want to show off the drivers, I figured if your wife was unhappy with a small cube in the corner looking at multiple silver drivers might be a bigger affront.

If you have 12" of driver space I would look at the Infinity 1262, you can get a pair for $106. There are general differences between car subs and more HT oriented subs but the fact that most car subs are designed to work well in small enclosures is actually a positive for you, since your boxes will actually be small. When used alone they won't have the deep extension one wants in a HT sub but you are using multiples.

Good luck and let us know how it goes and don;t forget pictures when it gets to that point!
Thanks, I guess you guys don't have any reservations about the dual voice coils? I guess it gives you the option of making it a 2 ohm or an 8 ohm speaker. I've always thought a single vc is better.

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Thanks, I guess you guys don't have any reservations about the dual voice coils? I guess it gives you the option of making it a 2 ohm or an 8 ohm speaker. I've always thought a single vc is better.
2dvc coils = 1 full coil. Just half the mass for each of the dvc's vs a single coil, in the end it all equals out.
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post #24 of 27 Old 10-28-2015, 03:32 PM
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I disagree with the dual boxes a side idea. Build them all into one enclosure which will make porting it easier to get a long port with sufficient CSA to get as low and loud as possible. With 4 drivers, I'd put one as close to the floor as possible, one 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 room heights (centre of driver). You have placement issues to try to ameliorate length and width modes, but with my suggested positioning, you do your best to reduce vertical modes. Port could exit at top or bottom (raise it on short legs). Don't forget a HPF just below tune.
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post #25 of 27 Old 10-28-2015, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AI Limited View Post
Thanks, I guess you guys don't have any reservations about the dual voice coils? I guess it gives you the option of making it a 2 ohm or an 8 ohm speaker. I've always thought a single vc is better.
As already stated dual voice coils are a non-issue and give you two impedance options which continue to multiply your options as you add more drivers. However, in this as most cases you need to decide on how you plan to power the subs and take that into account choosing which route to take re voice coils so you end up with the load that works best for you on the amplifier side.

A9X also make a good point about smaller multiple boxes and ports, small boxes are almost impossible to tune low and keep port velocity in check. A lower tune in a small box means a slot port that winds its way around the inside of the box.

Since you mentioned playing around with WinISD a couple of other higher priced drivers (also high quality) you could play around with are the Sundown E series and Alpine SWS series, both of which should model better in small boxes. The Alpine Type S drivers also are very sexy for car subs IMO.
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post #26 of 27 Old 10-28-2015, 04:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
I disagree with the dual boxes a side idea. Build them all into one enclosure which will make porting it easier to get a long port with sufficient CSA to get as low and loud as possible. With 4 drivers, I'd put one as close to the floor as possible, one 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 room heights (centre of driver). You have placement issues to try to ameliorate length and width modes, but with my suggested positioning, you do your best to reduce vertical modes. Port could exit at top or bottom (raise it on short legs). Don't forget a HPF just below tune.
The problem with a single box per side is that you can't reach the floor and ceilings and still have room to stand it up (in a rectangular room). That is why I suggested a 2 piece tower, sit the 1st in place and slide the 2nd one between the 1st box and ceiling. You gain volume even with adding 1 1/2" of ply to them for an extra top and bottom panel. I was also referring to sealed boxes for the 12 or 16 1260/1262's.


4 1260's per side could be used ported at 18hz or so and you still would have no issue with port lengths while separating them into 2 box stacks..


I agree with spacing the subs equally to get rid of height modes.
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post #27 of 27 Old 10-29-2015, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Awesome ideas guys, thanks!

So my ceiling height is 16', posing a problem with equally spacing the subs vertically in my family room, especially while selling the idea to my wife. Keep in mind I have a dedicated theater room upstairs that is controlled, can be tuned with room dampening, etc. The family room is less than ideal for a primary listening location, but it happens to be the one we use the most. Lifting the enclosure(s) off the ground is a great idea, especially because both the entertainment center and the walls have molding/baseboards which would cut into my usable width if I don't elevate them.

I will model the subs you guys are recommending and go from there. I'm not sure I could even get one large enclosure into place without destroying my walls and cabinetry, but I haven't ruled it out. I will definitely do one cohesive grill to make it look good. I will post photos when I start!

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