Attempting a 3way SEOS10 - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 185 Old 12-12-2015, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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in case anyone is wondering where the plots come from, it's data from REW exported as frd and then run through a script I wrote which can be found at https://github.com/3ll3d00d/directivity-utils
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post #92 of 185 Old 12-13-2015, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I wonder whether I should repeat my SEOS10 measurements as they seem quite different to the "official" data, this rendition of the SEOS10/BMS4550 is markedly narrower than mine

Mine is basically 80 degrees wide to 5k then expands to 120 degrees at 1k with a fairly linear loss of control.

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Official data is ~80-90 degrees with directivity moving in the opposite direction in the 1-2k range (become more directive not less)



Whereas @bwaslo 's data is arguably more similar to mine, hard to tell as this graph is normalised to 22.5 degrees but you can see the same gradual loss of control from 5k (down to ~1.5k in this case)

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post #93 of 185 Old 12-13-2015, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I added an option to normalise to some particular angle and then matched my scales as much as I could to that graph from @bwaslo

This produces the following chart which, IMO, matches that one by @bwaslo pretty closely. I think my -6dB line is pretty much the equivalent of the line of blue in his chart. I'd say that counts as a useful 30min script hacking, saved me cracking out the mic again

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post #94 of 185 Old 12-13-2015, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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ultimately then it looks like the SEOS10 is worth a try given that I have them already but that the SEOS12 is most likely the (marginally?) better choice

this is probably a lot of graphs to state the expected outcome but seems worth the effort to actually work through the detail
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post #95 of 185 Old 12-13-2015, 01:13 PM
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It's good to have a plan, and you are certainly thorough on your projects. So many people just do things half-cocked without really understanding what's going on.......not that I'm an expert as there are many things I need to learn myself.

I think the SEOS10 will do just fine and the fact that you already own them makes that even better, and if it doesn't work out you can pick up the bigger wg.

IIRC some of that AutoTech data was suspect......could be a number of things.
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post #96 of 185 Old 12-13-2015, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I am in a graph frenzy

this is an interesting one, the TD12M data normalised to 22.5 degrees same as the SEOS10. If you flip back and forth between this and the SEOS10 data then you can see how they compare more clearly as they fall away.

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post #97 of 185 Old 12-14-2015, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I chopped the 2 views down so that the TD12m graph ends at 2kHz on the top end and the SEOS one ends at 1kHz on the low end. I then blended the two files lining up the left side the SEOS graph with the relevant point on the TD12m graph. This produces the following which I think is a pretty clear illustration of the situation.



Is this the sort of thing that leads people to depress on axis output around the crossover to try to balance the power response? i.e. the minor "bloom" in directivity causing one to perceive it as a bit forward in that midrange

Next step, knock up an XO to test this out.
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post #98 of 185 Old 12-14-2015, 07:55 AM
 
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3ll3d00d very cool build and thread so far... I am interested in following along.
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post #99 of 185 Old 12-14-2015, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I chopped the 2 views down so that the TD12m graph ends at 2kHz on the top end and the SEOS one ends at 1kHz on the low end. I then blended the two files lining up the left side the SEOS graph with the relevant point on the TD12m graph. This produces the following which I think is a pretty clear illustration of the situation.



Is this the sort of thing that leads people to depress on axis output around the crossover to try to balance the power response? i.e. the minor "bloom" in directivity causing one to perceive it as a bit forward in that midrange

Next step, knock up an XO to test this out.
Hi. What kind of method did you use to blend these two files? Is this a sum of the impulse responses, taking into account the relative delays at each angle, assuming far-field?
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post #100 of 185 Old 12-14-2015, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi. What kind of method did you use to blend these two files? Is this a sum of the impulse responses, taking into account the relative delays at each angle, assuming far-field?
No, it is just a crude gradient blend of the two images It is just a simple, quick way to get the two datasets into one chart for visual inspection.
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post #101 of 185 Old 12-15-2015, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
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Is this the sort of thing that leads people to depress on axis output around the crossover to try to balance the power response? i.e. the minor "bloom" in directivity causing one to perceive it as a bit forward in that midrange

Next step, knock up an XO to test this out.
AFAIK that's what you call the BBC dip used in smaller monitors, and ideally that's what our DI matched speakers avoid. Five or 10deg through the xo really isn't a deal breaker imo, and the xo will blend that so when it's done right there won't be any "steps" off axis. The speakers where the BBC dip is employed often have quite a different in off axis response between the midwoofer and the tweeter with the mid being much more directional near the xo.
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post #102 of 185 Old 12-15-2015, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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AFAIK that's what you call the BBC dip used in smaller monitors, and ideally that's what our DI matched speakers avoid. Five or 10deg through the xo really isn't a deal breaker imo, and the xo will blend that so when it's done right there won't be any "steps" off axis. The speakers where the BBC dip is employed often have quite a different in off axis response between the midwoofer and the tweeter with the mid being much more directional near the xo.
ok so you think that a minor discontinuity in directivity is not a major problem, nice to avoid but not the end of the world.

Here's my first cut at a mid/cd cross so I get some data on how that directivity looks when putting the two together

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I now need to raid the parts bin fortunately I just bought a couple of big 2mH coils for my surrounds so I'm covered there. This is good as coils seem to take forever to turn up. I probably just need a couple of the bigger caps and then can get the mic out.
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post #103 of 185 Old 12-15-2015, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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how important is phase alignment for a ~350Hz XO?

it seems somewhat problematic to get the woofer/mid into alignment wrt phase unless I go for a v shallow slope on the woofer. My data atm suggests I have an almost fixed phase offset which seems to be driven by the differing response <200Hz, i.e. it's like a fixed 60-70 degree offset between the two.
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post #104 of 185 Old 12-15-2015, 10:26 PM
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No, it is just a crude gradient blend of the two images It is just a simple, quick way to get the two datasets into one chart for visual inspection.
Oh! Now I see it. I think part of what confused me is that the data is normalized to "-3 dB" at 22.5 degrees.

The horizontal mismatch is fairly minor IMO, but the vertical mismatch is a lot more severe. If your goal is smooth SPL response along the horizontal axis, then things don't look too bad for me. However, directivity depends on radiation in all directions as well as any constructive and destructive interference arising from sources in multiple locations in the crossover region. I expect your directivity will decrease from 15 kHz or so (above which, directivity depends more on CD/throat/phase-plug interactions) down to the point at which the woofer starts contributing. At that point, directivity will level out and begin to increase instead, reaching a maximum around the crossover point or slightly below it before going into decline again. If smoothly varying directivity is desired, I think you will want a larger horn and lower crossover. This is assuming that your drivers sum in-phase in the crossover region.

On the other hand, it may be possible to correct crossover directivity issues somewhat by using a crossover that does not sum completely in-phase, especially because you are using an active crossover. The downside to this approach is that it will tend to narrow the "sweet spot" in the vertical dimension because the summed response varies more rapidly away from 100% in-phase.
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post #105 of 185 Old 12-16-2015, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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If smoothly varying directivity is desired, I think you will want a larger horn and lower crossover. This is assuming that your drivers sum in-phase in the crossover region.
I don't have space for a markedly bigger horn unfortunately, I might be able to squeeze the SEOS12 in if I really needed to but would prefer not to have to. In a year (or two... probably two) then I intend to rebuild the front stage completely with an AT screen and I could go with something bigger at that point.

FWIW I measured vertical directivity with my TD10 based 2 way which you can see in this post. The iteration of the (passive) XO shown had a few issues around the crossover which were later resolved but still I don't expect to get much more than +/- 15 degrees out of it. I was planning to see whether I can address this via DSP.
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post #106 of 185 Old 12-16-2015, 07:27 AM
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If smoothly varying directivity is desired, I think you will want a larger horn and lower crossover.
+1 that's my only gripe with the SEOS stuff and that's why I build my own. We all have different ideas of what the acceptable trade-offs are.
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post #107 of 185 Old 12-16-2015, 07:28 AM
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I was planning to see whether I can address this via DSP.
How so?
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post #108 of 185 Old 12-16-2015, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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How so?
well that's a good Q I don't have a real plan for this other than knowing that I've linearised a passive crossover before. I didn't examine whether it had any effect on directivity but figured it was something to play around with.
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post #109 of 185 Old 12-16-2015, 09:04 PM
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+1 that's my only gripe with the SEOS stuff and that's why I build my own. We all have different ideas of what the acceptable trade-offs are.
Very interesting. Pardon my curiosity, but which detail in my assessment are you griping about? And what kind of sacrifices does your design accept in order to deal with this gripe? Of all the measurements I've seen so far, the SEOS wins for me hands down. A time may come in which I try to make a center speaker horn that better covers my seating area. At the same time, I'm not certain how to accomplish this goal while also maintaining similar directivity between the other front stage speakers, i.e., the timbre matching problem. I suspect that the solution with fewest compromises involves complementary horn and rooms designs. For me, that will be a challenge for another day.
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post #110 of 185 Old 12-16-2015, 09:24 PM
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FWIW I measured vertical directivity with my TD10 based 2 way which you can see in this post. The iteration of the (passive) XO shown had a few issues around the crossover which were later resolved but still I don't expect to get much more than +/- 15 degrees out of it. I was planning to see whether I can address this via DSP.
As long as the vertical pattern is large enough for me to achieve good coverage, I'm happy. However, I'm more concerned about how the vertical coverage pattern varies. In the example you posted, the window clearly necks quite a bit around the crossover. How much did your improved crossover fix this issue? The gist is that a lot less energy is likely getting added to the room there, relative to the on-axis SPL, so this will affect the decay time there, relative to the rest of the spectrum, too. I believe this characteristic is very audible, and a smooth but not necessarily flat energy response is desirable just as a smooth (but not necessarily flat) SPL response is desireable

Currently, I have the opposite problem. My Hsu HB-1 and HC-1 speakers incorporate a BBC dip of sort themselves. The tweeter is inverted relative to the woofer, and there is a considerable notch at around 3 kHz. I don't know where the actual crossover is, but I suspect it is in that vicinity. My on-axis response is corrected to flat, but as a consequence, I have a lot more sound power there, and a lot of that energy arrives relatively early. My decay times are almost double there compared to surrounding frequencies. Subjectively, the the system sounds hot in that frequency range, especially with the right (or wrong) content. I considered re-habbing them with better enclosures and active crossovers, but determined that I could never achieve a wide enough vertical pattern through the crossover region to make it worthwhile. Hence, my own SEOS build.
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post #111 of 185 Old 12-16-2015, 10:23 PM
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well that's a good Q I don't have a real plan for this other than knowing that I've linearised a passive crossover before. I didn't examine whether it had any effect on directivity but figured it was something to play around with.
You can linearize a passive crossover, but you have no control over the resulting directivity without modifying the crossover itself. With an active crossover, however, you can theoretically alter directivity and linearize frequency response and phase at the same time. What you give up is the ability to control where the lobes and nodes in the vertical response pattern lie. You will get more vertical response variation in the vicinity of the horizontal plane, but I think you can at least invert the locations of the nulls about the horizontal plane. For example you might orient the null that resides closest to the MLP toward the floor instead of the ceiling so that the speakers still sound good to standing listeners. Depending on your goals, this compromise may be entirely acceptable.
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post #112 of 185 Old 12-17-2015, 05:18 AM
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Very interesting. Pardon my curiosity, but which detail in my assessment are you griping about? And what kind of sacrifices does your design accept in order to deal with this gripe?
I'm not griping about your assessment....I'm griping about the SEOS . Actually I thought I was agreeing with you. I inferred (maybe incorrectly) that you were talking about the vertical pattern of the SEOS widening out above the xo due to its' short height. The plus side, of course, is you get closer spacing. I would prefer to maintain vertical pattern control down to the xo with a taller wg, and accept the wider spacing. I'm moving towards a Synergy horn now which neatly takes care of both problems.

Tbh I haven't looked at the "vertical problem" real close as I've been happy with the +/-10° vertical I currently get, and the 30° total 3ll3dood has is even better. I'm not sure any amount of dsp can make the driver offset xo issues much better without making something else worse.
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post #113 of 185 Old 12-17-2015, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure any amount of dsp can make the driver offset xo issues much better without making something else worse.
I was thinking of this sort of thing -> http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/p...prove_directiv

I think that article is a summary of http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14688 (but I haven't read that)
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post #114 of 185 Old 12-17-2015, 05:46 AM
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I was thinking of this sort of thing -> http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/p...prove_directiv

I think that article is a summary of http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14688 (but I haven't read that)
Your first link takes me to an article about Krix loudspeaker company? From the link text it looks like it's supposed to be about all-pass filters and now that I think about it may be an article I read some months ago. I needed an apf for a slightly different purpose but I remember it talked about improving directivity thru the xo.
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post #115 of 185 Old 12-17-2015, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Your first link takes me to an article about Krix loudspeaker company? From the link text it looks like it's supposed to be about all-pass filters and now that I think about it may be an article I read some months ago. I needed an apf for a slightly different purpose but I remember it talked about improving directivity thru the xo.
Are you on a phone? Their mobile site seems broken, link works on a workstation. It refers to this ppt

http://www.excelsior-audio.com/Publi..._Filtering.pdf

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Ahh yes I am.....Thanks! Gives me something to read at work.
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post #117 of 185 Old 12-17-2015, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Ahh yes I am.....Thanks! Gives me something to read at work.
to get to the summary article from a phone then I think you can hit the link for the "full site" at the bottom and then use the search box to search for excelsior, one of the first results is to an article named "Using All-Pass Filters to Improve Directivity and Magnitude Response"
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post #118 of 185 Old 12-17-2015, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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However, I'm more concerned about how the vertical coverage pattern varies. In the example you posted, the window clearly necks quite a bit around the crossover. How much did your improved crossover fix this issue?
that crossover had a dip around the crossover (I made an error in calculating z offset) which leads to the asymmetry in the +/-15 degrees range. Once fixed, the directivity was pretty consistent from about -10 to +15 IIRC. The rest of the range was unaffected.
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how important is vertical directivity in the home? I can see why it would be really important in PA use but it's not so obvious in the home

taking my room as an example, I have a 10' ceiling so the 1st ceiling reflection is going to be relatively weak and ~6ms delayed while the floor is (obviously) closer) but is thickly carpeted with underlay which I think means it acts as a pretty decent absorber above 1kHz or so (not 100% sure on this). In these circumstances, is improving control outside the listening window going to make that much difference?
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post #120 of 185 Old 12-17-2015, 08:29 AM
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how important is vertical directivity in the home? I can see why it would be really important in PA use but it's not so obvious in the home

taking my room as an example, I have a 10' ceiling so the 1st ceiling reflection is going to be relatively weak and ~6ms delayed while the floor is (obviously) closer) but is thickly carpeted with underlay which I think means it acts as a pretty decent absorber above 1kHz or so (not 100% sure on this). In these circumstances, is improving control outside the listening window going to make that much difference?
From the studies I've read vertical reflections only serve to cause coloration and have no psychoacoustic benefit.
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