The V.B.S.S. DIY subwoofer design thread - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 1531 Old 02-26-2017, 03:15 PM
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Just built four subs around the PA-460 and I am going to use MTG90's iNuke 20hz tune settings as a base.

Getting ready to hook up my subs, just setting up the iNuke before the first power up and testing.

First off, if I want to change the high pass filter to around 18hz, on the existing settings do I go into PEQ Filter 1, and set the gain to 3.0 db? Default is at 2.0db. Or is that already 18hz? I definitaly want it kind of flat at 20 hz, then I guess a sharp rolloff after that.

Also what is the DEQ stuff doing exactly? What is band 1 and band 2 doing? is DEQ 2 just flattening the 20hz section so the highpass doesnt boost there, but does work just a hair under 20 hz? I loaded the 15hz tune file and I can see the DEQ 2 settings there are much more agressive.

I don't really want boosted bass in lower volumes, I am not a fan on Dynamic EQ on my Marantz for EQ, is just sounds unnatural to me, do I need these on? Can I just switch them off? If I do switch them off do I lose anything in relation to making the PA-460 driver work as a subwoofer?

First time iNuke user here.

I bought the 3000DSP, two PA460 subs per channel. 4ohm load.

Lastly, being in Australia with 240v power vs the 110v you guys in the US have, do the Amps voltage limiter settings need change then in relation to that? I see they are set at -1.5dBfs / 71.5Vp right now?






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post #302 of 1531 Old 02-26-2017, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I would not adjust the highpass settings as in room you will likely get extension down below 18hz in the 20hz setting. You should measure and then adjust EQ settings as necessary to get the response tailored to your room/taste.

DEQ 2 is just running as a little bit of normal EQ that's why it's tuned all the way down, you can move that filter over to one of the regular EQ slots if you wanted.

DEQ 1 reduces the gain of that PEQ filter as the amp approaches max power allowing a little more increase in levels above that filter's range as the amp is turned up before the limiter engages. You can also move that filter over to the regular PEQ section if you wanted to run it without the dynamic EQ part, or turn the threshold setting up to 0dB which will basically bypass the DEQ part and just leave the PEQ part active.

Limiter settings should remain the same, it's limiting output voltage of the amplifier which should be unaffected by mains voltage.

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post #303 of 1531 Old 02-26-2017, 04:26 PM
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Wanted to post my V.B.S.S.'s in here. Thank you @mtg90 for this awesome design. I have four up front on one channel and two in the back on the other channel. I have my LCR crossed at 120Hz so I moved the LPF on the rears down to 80Hz. That way there isn't LCR material in the rear subs. XT32 does a great job EQ'ing along with your iNuke files. They effortlessly fill my theater with tons of clean bass. Its hard to believe these are all powered with one iNuke 3000DSP.





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post #304 of 1531 Old 02-26-2017, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
Wanted to post my V.B.S.S.'s in here. Thank you @mtg90 for this awesome design. I have four up front on one channel and two in the back on the other channel. I have my LCR crossed at 120Hz so I moved the LPF on the rears down to 80Hz. That way there isn't LCR material in the rear subs. XT32 does a great job EQ'ing along with your iNuke files. They effortlessly fill my theater with tons of clean bass. Its hard to believe these are all powered with one iNuke 3000DSP.




Awesome to hear you have 6 of them! What tuning did you go for? Are you getting room gain down low also?

Pete
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post #305 of 1531 Old 02-26-2017, 05:10 PM
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Awesome to hear you have 6 of them! What tuning did you go for? Are you getting room gain down low also?

Pete
I am using 15Hz right now. Still have to get the PC down there and take some sweeps. Hopefully do that by next weekend. Had a few members over last night and we were hitting 130.6DB's on some music tracks and they still had more in the tank. Not sure what frequency that's at though.

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post #306 of 1531 Old 02-27-2017, 04:38 AM
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Well, it turns out these four subs are giving me extension down to about 12.5hz flat. Which is... most unexpected!

The iNuke is WTF loud; like so damn loud I cant even watch anything. It sounds like a damn 747 jumbo jet on take off. I recorded 80db at the vents. Are they kidding??? Anyway, ordered a Noctua fan, should be here day after tomorrow.

I have flat bass from 12.5 hz up to ablut 85, the things get rocky, either SBIR from my mains and subs or some other issue, still sorting out tue cal, will post some solid info when I have it all dialled in.

I feel like for sure I am still missing some real slam and tactile feedback despite measuring pretty well.
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post #307 of 1531 Old 02-27-2017, 06:35 AM
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Shut off that low pass filter. Your AVR is handling that.
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post #308 of 1531 Old 02-28-2017, 05:25 AM
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Few quick pics of my four subs...







And the lower end response. The top end needs a lot of work.





This is the whole response from that plot at MLP. Not good.



A few inches forward...



This is what it used to be before I added all the big subs, I also had to pull my towers a little forward so as not to be lost behind the massive baffles, and the big rear subs now sit where I used to have some treatment, oh, and I bought a leather couch which replaced my suede couch, I guess I now how a flurry of SBIR interference and such affecting the MLP, not sure what to do about all of that stuff over 400hz...



Based on this, and the fact I have fairly excellent measurements from ~13hz up to 400hz, I am just not really feeling much tactile bass, I was expecting/hoping to get some chest slam, there is essentially none. I do have floor and couch shaking bass though, but none of it transfers into my body in any way, a little underwhelmed here. If I am honest, this is not too far from what I already had with my two 10inch subs that these replaced, obviously there is some deeper bass here but its not that cinema impact I was expecting... A couple times during a film I even checked to see if they were still working, ended up running them pretty hot tonight.

Ended up after today at a 120hz crossover trying things out... it has the response shown above, I used to run my old subs at 60hz, but now if I engage that I get some dips. Phase and distance has been aligned as best as possible, I only have control over two inputs on the iNuke so the front pair and rear pair of subs is all the adjustment I have, not individual subs.

My room is probably the issue, its about 2000sq ft, but its open to the entire rest of my house, two stairways exit the room... So I guess this is what happens when the room cannot pressurise (but it measures very well). Or using such big subs in a small space? Am I too close to them for the waves to reach full potential?

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post #309 of 1531 Old 02-28-2017, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Few quick pics of my four subs...







And the lower end response. The top end needs a lot of work.





This is the whole response from that plot at MLP. Not good.



A few inches forward...



This is what it used to be before I added all the big subs, I also had to pull my towers a little forward so as not to be lost behind the massive baffles, and the big rear subs now sit where I used to have some treatment, oh, and I bought a leather couch which replaced my suede couch, I guess I now how a flurry of SBIR interference and such affecting the MLP, not sure what to do about all of that stuff over 400hz...



Based on this, and the fact I have fairly excellent measurements from ~13hz up to 400hz, I am just not really feeling much tactile bass, I was expecting/hoping to get some chest slam, there is essentially none. I do have floor and couch shaking bass though, but none of it transfers into my body in any way, a little underwhelmed here. If I am honest, this is not too far from what I already had with my two 10inch subs that these replaced, obviously there is some deeper bass here but its not that cinema impact I was expecting... A couple times during a film I even checked to see if they were still working, ended up running them pretty hot tonight.

Ended up after today at a 120hz crossover trying things out... it has the response shown above, I used to run my old subs at 60hz, but now if I engage that I get some dips. Phase and distance has been aligned as best as possible, I only have control over two inputs on the iNuke so the front pair and rear pair of subs is all the adjustment I have, not individual subs.

My room is probably the issue, its about 2000sq ft, but its open to the entire rest of my house, two stairways exit the room... So I guess this is what happens when the room cannot pressurise (but it measures very well). Or using such big subs in a small space? Am I too close to them for the waves to reach full potential?
You need to turn up the subs a bunch. Flat is not gonna give you cinema punch until volumes that will make your brain dribble out your ears. For example, I just moved stuff around and ran audyssey. It set subs to -5.5, it sounded so polite and we'll mannered and zero bass. First I just turn the avr back up, I just turned it back to zero but +6db is a good starting point. Then turn the gain on the amps up about 6db. Tweak to proper level of slam and, done.

You want smooth response without big nulls or peaks but the bottom end should slope up to the left to get what you're after. You can test with the ending shootout from jack reacher, if the gunshots aren't slapping you around you're not done.

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post #310 of 1531 Old 02-28-2017, 06:09 AM
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Do you have dynamic eq turned on in your avr? Even if you do, try the iNuke DEQ. Slap in a 20hz q=2 +8db threshold 33 filter in the DEQ and see how it does. What you have there should make it difficult to breathe.
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post #311 of 1531 Old 02-28-2017, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Few quick pics of my four subs...







And the lower end response. The top end needs a lot of work.





This is the whole response from that plot at MLP. Not good.



A few inches forward...



This is what it used to be before I added all the big subs, I also had to pull my towers a little forward so as not to be lost behind the massive baffles, and the big rear subs now sit where I used to have some treatment, oh, and I bought a leather couch which replaced my suede couch, I guess I now how a flurry of SBIR interference and such affecting the MLP, not sure what to do about all of that stuff over 400hz...



Based on this, and the fact I have fairly excellent measurements from ~13hz up to 400hz, I am just not really feeling much tactile bass, I was expecting/hoping to get some chest slam, there is essentially none. I do have floor and couch shaking bass though, but none of it transfers into my body in any way, a little underwhelmed here. If I am honest, this is not too far from what I already had with my two 10inch subs that these replaced, obviously there is some deeper bass here but its not that cinema impact I was expecting... A couple times during a film I even checked to see if they were still working, ended up running them pretty hot tonight.

Ended up after today at a 120hz crossover trying things out... it has the response shown above, I used to run my old subs at 60hz, but now if I engage that I get some dips. Phase and distance has been aligned as best as possible, I only have control over two inputs on the iNuke so the front pair and rear pair of subs is all the adjustment I have, not individual subs.

My room is probably the issue, its about 2000sq ft, but its open to the entire rest of my house, two stairways exit the room... So I guess this is what happens when the room cannot pressurise (but it measures very well). Or using such big subs in a small space? Am I too close to them for the waves to reach full potential?


my humble opinion is that your sweep is too flat. try turning up the area from 150hz and under about 10dbs up and see if that improves the punchiness.

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post #312 of 1531 Old 02-28-2017, 07:17 AM
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I wanted to share a few pictures from my finished VBSS end table build in case anyone is looking for inspiration to sneak some 18's into their living room. Enjoy!







The finished product:







Thanks for looking!




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Could someone possibly design me a box and generate a cut list for the PA 460 tuned to 30hz? Enclosure size can be no bigger then 25Hx24Wx24D with a double baffle. Slot port or tube port makes no differance to me. I will have two of these with each on their own channel of an inuke3000dsp. Tryin to finalize everything before i start makin dust. Thank you

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post #314 of 1531 Old 02-28-2017, 08:00 AM
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post #315 of 1531 Old 02-28-2017, 08:26 AM
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That is an insanely nice piece of wood DaveyK what kind is it? What stain?


Thanks! It's actually edge-glued spruce or pine that I found at Menards. It is pretty affordable, has a lot of character, and stains very well. I used the same wood for my TV stand in a much larger sheet and it also looks great. With it being a softer wood, I was concerned about longevity and nicks/dents, but it has held up very well. I used Minwax Dark Walnut stain and a few coats of their satin poly.


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post #316 of 1531 Old 02-28-2017, 04:09 PM
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Hey @DaveyK ,

I was just curious what you used for the front pieces on that end table, the fake drawer/door faces. Did you make them? Or find them somewhere? I have an idea to use a router to make a couple of rectangles look nice like doors/drawers for my cabinet, but I'm having trouble finalizing the design.

Hey @Javs ,

I'm always impressed when I see pictures of your speakers and those subs look great now too. I love the look, they seem very imposing and have great presence in your pics.
I'm sorry the subs aren't as satisfying as you were hoping. Maybe they are just too flat gain-wise to meet your bass "needs". MANY of us have a tendency to have a bass boosted gain of 5-15dB. This would be apparent on your FRs as a slight slope upwards below 100-120Hz. Where the gain below that point would be X dB higher than the gain above that point. I recommend making some adjustments to "fatten up" this region of your FR and see how that sounds. You should really be getting some pretty impressive bass from those 4 VBSSs!

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post #317 of 1531 Old 02-28-2017, 04:23 PM
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Hey @DaveyK ,



I was just curious what you used for the front pieces on that end table, the fake drawer/door faces. Did you make them? Or find them somewhere? I have an idea to use a router to make a couple of rectangles look nice like doors/drawers for my cabinet, but I'm having trouble finalizing the design.


I made them out of a 1x4 and a 1x12 cut to size. I used my router with a cove bit to give them the appearance I wanted. Another different thing I did to give it a distressed look (matching my TV stand) was apply a darker finish before the white paint. With some light sanding of the edges, the detail really pops.



I'd sketch it up and use a couple different bits on some scrap wood to see what looks best.


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post #318 of 1531 Old 02-28-2017, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyK View Post
I made them out of a 1x4 and a 1x12 cut to size. I used my router with a cove bit to give them the appearance I wanted. Another different thing I did to give it a distressed look (matching my TV stand) was apply a darker finish before the white paint. With some light sanding of the edges, the detail really pops. I'd sketch it up and use a couple different bits on some scrap wood to see what looks best.
Yea, I plan on finishing the wood without paint, just a clearcoat and maybe a light varnish or stain.

I like that "cove bit" finish on those pieces. But it may not be what I'll end up with. Something similar though I think, I ought to go look at the variety of bits available, but router bits are not super cheap :-). I will have some leftover 3/4" plywood that I intend to use for this purpose. It is layered plywood and I'm hopeful the layered look on the ends and edges will have a nice look on the final cabinet. (I saw another member's build with this look pulled off amazingly, I need to go back and find those if I can).

Thanks for sharing your pics. Do you have a build thread separate from these posts?

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post #319 of 1531 Old 02-28-2017, 05:26 PM
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Yea, I plan on finishing the wood without paint, just a clearcoat and maybe a light varnish or stain.



I like that "cove bit" finish on those pieces. But it may not be what I'll end up with. Something similar though I think, I ought to go look at the variety of bits available, but router bits are not super cheap :-). I will have some leftover 3/4" plywood that I intend to use for this purpose. It is layered plywood and I'm hopeful the layered look on the ends and edges will have a nice look on the final cabinet. (I saw another member's build with this look pulled off amazingly, I need to go back and find those if I can).



Thanks for sharing your pics. Do you have a build thread separate from these posts?


You're welcome. Happy to share in hopes of someone coming up for something better for future builds!

In retrospect this still would have turned out nice if I went with stained plywood or something other than MDF that stains a little better. I also really like the end grain look with plywood when done well.

I just looked at your cabinet build and it looks good so far. Excited to hear about your results with the combination of drivers. I have an SI HST-18 that I will incorporate somewhere/someday, but it won't be for a while. I might do a combination of 3-4 PA-460's with the HST-18 nearfield that serves as the foundation for my bar behind my seating in the theater, but I might have integration issues between the two drivers and with my JTR Orbit Shifter(s) that will be behind the screen. This would be a taller, leaner build, but I still think I could have enough volume to tune these where I want them. 2 stacked 18's (1 460 and 1 HST-18) firing right into my back, plus the OS LFU's and a couple more 460's should do the trick! Have you settled on an approximate look/appearance for your cabinet?

I have a build thread for my TV stand build where I piggybacked the end table build. I don't know how to link on Tapatalk, but if you search for Dual VBSS TV Stand it should show up.


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post #320 of 1531 Old 03-01-2017, 08:08 AM
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Thanks! It's actually edge-glued spruce or pine that I found at Menards. It is pretty affordable, has a lot of character, and stains very well. I used the same wood for my TV stand in a much larger sheet and it also looks great. With it being a softer wood, I was concerned about longevity and nicks/dents, but it has held up very well. I used Minwax Dark Walnut stain and a few coats of their satin poly.
Thanks for this, the finishes turned out amazing on the tops of your recent sub projects, I love the depth and grain that comes through.
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post #321 of 1531 Old 03-01-2017, 03:52 PM
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I was able to correct the sub to a much better standard, I realised I could just pull down the whole response closer to where the dips were and create a little bit of a house curve... Still experimenting with this, but its FAR better.

I am more than happy with the very low end, I just want to chase a little more midbass now. I still feel nothing/zero in the chest cavity, and this is at reference level. The couch and room shakes to no end, but I get nothing in my body...

Crossing over at 120hz right now. I should be getting stacks of midbass especially since my towers all have dual 12's for LF and another 12 for Mids (350hz and up.)

Does the room need to be sealed for this?

Regardless this response is FAR better. Interstellar Black Hole scene, I get two clipping lights at reference level, which is about the most relentless bass I can remember in a film for testing, EOT also two clipping lights, looks like I am right on the edge, which is where I wanna be for bass to maximise the amp and subs output for my listening levels.



Oh and did the fan mod and black paint job on my iNuke... WAY better now.







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post #322 of 1531 Old 03-01-2017, 05:16 PM
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post #323 of 1531 Old 03-01-2017, 05:46 PM
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Man that inuke looks great, I gotta do that
Also 2 iNuke mods that I NEED to do !!

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post #324 of 1531 Old 03-01-2017, 07:13 PM
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@Javs is that just regular paint or textured paint? It looks kinda textured and I like it

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post #325 of 1531 Old 03-01-2017, 07:31 PM
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@Javs is that just regular paint or textured paint? It looks kinda textured and I like it
Its Rustoleum satin black rattle can.

Just light dusting from a good distance, over 50cm.
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post #326 of 1531 Old 03-01-2017, 09:35 PM
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I was able to correct the sub to a much better standard, I realised I could just pull down the whole response closer to where the dips were and create a little bit of a house curve... Still experimenting with this, but its FAR better.

I am more than happy with the very low end, I just want to chase a little more midbass now. I still feel nothing/zero in the chest cavity, and this is at reference level. The couch and room shakes to no end, but I get nothing in my body...

Crossing over at 120hz right now. I should be getting stacks of midbass especially since my towers all have dual 12's for LF and another 12 for Mids (350hz and up.)

Does the room need to be sealed for this?

Regardless this response is FAR better. Interstellar Black Hole scene, I get two clipping lights at reference level, which is about the most relentless bass I can remember in a film for testing, EOT also two clipping lights, looks like I am right on the edge, which is where I wanna be for bass to maximise the amp and subs output for my listening levels.


Oh and did the fan mod and black paint job on my iNuke... WAY better now.
]
good to hear its getting better, but I have pretty much the same house curve for my mains and i'll tell you right now it is still too light on the bass if you are also using that curve for lfe. still about 10-15 decibels down from where the low end should be.

what is the decibel level when you get the clipping lights? i would think that with four subs you would have headroom to spare but I dont know how loud you were listening.

ps. modelling four pa460s( i didnt read if you have 4 460s or a mix n match) should give about 130 dbs above 20hz with some room gain, with 1000 watts total.

if the 12s in your towers are helping as in double bass, then you need even less power and have even more headroom

THANK YOU!!! for your selfless contribution to the audio world
Anders Torger for Brutefir
Thomas Drugeon for Rephase
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Juha Hartikainen for Winisd

Last edited by 1201; 03-01-2017 at 09:53 PM.
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post #327 of 1531 Old 03-01-2017, 10:34 PM
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good to hear its getting better, but I have pretty much the same house curve for my mains and i'll tell you right now it is still too light on the bass if you are also using that curve for lfe. still about 10-15 decibels down from where the low end should be.

what is the decibel level when you get the clipping lights? i would think that with four subs you would have headroom to spare but I dont know how loud you were listening.

ps. modelling four pa460s( i didnt read if you have 4 460s or a mix n match) should give about 130 dbs above 20hz with some room gain, with 1000 watts total.

if the 12s in your towers are helping as in double bass, then you need even less power and have even more headroom
When I watch a movie at reference level, on my amp (Speakers all calibrated for 75db with tones) I can tell you I am getting at the very least 115db in my room with the subs playing, its uncomfortably loud. I am not listening to this at low volumes.

I should get punched in the chest even at 100db though.. Its not happening.

I don't have much more headroom here, I flat out don't like overcooked LF bass. Its unnecessary. The room is shaking, my projector screen is vibrating, the floor shakes.... there is enough SPL in the room, tactile response is through the roof TBH, it feels like I have butt-kickers in the couch but chest resonance and percussive feedback is nil.

I am plying with the idea of boosting 50-100hz right now. I just tried boosting it 9db's and nope, still no go. I could also hear its now unbalanced, I life a flatter bass response through the bass range, will dial it back to +3db here... keep in mind the subs are already running hot compared to the mains.

if the 12s in your towers are helping as in double bass, then you need even less power and have even more headroom.

Regarding the statement above, should I switch the AVR into LFE + Main?

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post #328 of 1531 Old 03-01-2017, 10:46 PM
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When I watch a movie at reference level, on my amp (Speakers all calibrated for 75db with tones) I can tell you I am getting at the very least 115db in my room with the subs playing, its uncomfortably loud. I am not listening to this at low volumes.

I should get punched in the chest even at 100db though.. Its not happening.

I don't have much more headroom here, I flat out don't like overcooked LF bass. Its unnecessary. The room is shaking, my projector screen is vibrating, the floor shakes.... there is enough SPL in the room, tactile response is through the roof TBH, it feels like I have butt-kickers in the couch but chest resonance and percussive feedback is nil.

I am plying with the idea of boosting 50-100hz right now. I just tried boosting it 9db's and nope, still no go. I could also hear its now unbalanced, I life a flatter bass response through the bass range, will dial it back to +3db here... keep in mind the subs are already running hot compared to the mains.

if the 12s in your towers are helping as in double bass, then you need even less power and have even more headroom.

Regarding the statement above, should I switch the AVR into LFE + Main?
-I just know that my full range mains have that same response and the bass sounds pretty weak if I route lfe to the towers with that response. I was also going to mention that you could try the mmm method in about a 3x3x3 box and see what the response looks like
http://www.ohl.to/audio/downloads/MM...easurement.pdf

-wow, so it sounds like you have plenty of tactile response but no percussive feedback? interesting. that I have no explanation for. I do know that a lot of bass boosted music has the kick drum at approx 40hz. maybe try boosting 30-50 hz

115db out of 4 subs should be nothing at all. clip light may be coming on if you are severely boosting some frequencies to get there on the low end.

also try doing the lfe+mains just to see if you can dial it all down and still get the same level. that just gives more headroom

THANK YOU!!! for your selfless contribution to the audio world
Anders Torger for Brutefir
Thomas Drugeon for Rephase
John Mulcahy for room eq wizard
Denis Sbragion for DRC room correction
Juha Hartikainen for Winisd
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post #329 of 1531 Old 03-01-2017, 11:14 PM
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-I just know that my full range mains have that same response and the bass sounds pretty weak if I route lfe to the towers with that response. I was also going to mention that you could try the mmm method in about a 3x3x3 box and see what the response looks like
http://www.ohl.to/audio/downloads/MM...easurement.pdf

-wow, so it sounds like you have plenty of tactile response but no percussive feedback? interesting. that I have no explanation for. I do know that a lot of bass boosted music has the kick drum at approx 40hz. maybe try boosting 30-50 hz

115db out of 4 subs should be nothing at all. clip light may be coming on if you are severely boosting some frequencies to get there on the low end.

also try doing the lfe+mains just to see if you can dial it all down and still get the same level. that just gives more headroom
All I am doing is using MTG90's 20hz tune file for the iNuke... That boosts 20hz by 15db as far as I know, and the boxes are designed around not exceeding Xmax just under tune, I should have 123db or so at 375w each if they constructively combine which it seems like they are for the most part. I have run the flat file all the way into red clipping with interstellar and it was super loud.. as far as the EQ itself, all that is mostly happening well over 20hz so I don't think there is much danger there. I certainly don't want more volume, my ears should not be ringing after demo's and they are

Like I said earlier, you probably missed it, my room is not sealed, there is stairwells leading out of my room to the rest of my 4br house.. its a large house, I guess I am unable to pressurise the room and thus the percussive energy while measuring very well and present, is just not causing any resonances in my body.

I dunno... Just flipped the LFE+Mains switch, will test.

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post #330 of 1531 Old 03-02-2017, 06:25 AM
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I got ya. Sorry ive.got nothing

Guys can someone model the vbss 20hz tune for me and share the cone excursion and amplifier load?

Im getting some seriously janky data when I try to model it
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