The V.B.S.S. DIY subwoofer design thread - Page 54 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1591 of 2031 Old 09-27-2019, 06:24 AM
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Reviewing the situation and all the variables, along with some assumptions you may want to verify.

1) Receiver is a Denon AVR-X2400H, amp is a NX3000D, subs are PA-460-8, one per channel at 8 ohms (approximately 440 watts per channel).
2) One audio interconnect links the receiver subwoofer output (RCA) to the NX3000D (XLR/TS) on channel A. Note: Are you using XLR, TS, or TRS? PLEASE LINK TO THE CABLES YOU ARE USING. If you are not using the right cables, that would be a serious problem.
3) The amp is in BIAMP1 or BIAMP2 mode (verified through your screen shots).
4) You are using two separate speaker cables.
5) At the back of the amplifier, one SpeakON is connected to each output. Each SpeakON connecting to the amp is a 4 pole connector. On channel A, the speaker wires are connected into +1 and -1 terminals on the SpeakON connector. On channel B, the speaker wires are also connected to +1 and -1 terminals on the SpeakON connector. Note: +2 and -2 are NEVER used in this configuration. The wiring diagrams on the back are very confusing.
6) At each subwoofer, you either have bare wires connected to the subwoofer, or a SpeakON terminal, or some other type of speaker wire terminal. Regardless of the arrangement, you have tested this end is functional by connecting the amplifier end to a Pioneer receiver and verified your connections to the speaker are good.


Other things you can try:

1) Your receiver has dual subwoofer pre-outs. Try running separate interconnects from the two channels to the A and B inputs on your amplifier, and switch the amplifier to DUAL mode (dual mono). You can also try STEREO mode but the DSP settings will apply to both subwoofers, and you will not be able to time them independently.
2) Connect to your amplifier with the remote connect software and watch the input levels on the virtual meters while playing content through the amplifier. That may help to tell you if you're receiving enough input signal from the receiver. With the levels cranked on the receiver, that bad boy should be clipping with really loud content. Reminder: the knobs on the front of the amplifier attenuate input signal, so start with those cranked all the way down and slowly bring them all the way up to max. You can do this without speakers connected for safety.

HTH.
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post #1592 of 2031 Old 09-27-2019, 08:09 AM
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Thank you very much for the information. You are correct in your assumptions for the most part.


1) correct
2) I have tried using one or two interconnects. Initially I had a TS to RCA: https://www.amazon.com/TISINO-Audio-.../dp/B07HFC4NX7
Then I tried a XLR to RCA: https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-XLR.../dp/B001VLW398
3)I'd like to use the sugested BIAMP mode but in troubleshooting I've tried them all.
4&5)Yes, two separate cables. Initially 4 pole Speakeaon, I switched them for 2 pole just to ensure it wasn't a connector problem or bad wiring on my part.
6)Bare wires connected to these terminals:https://www.parts-express.com/parts-...minal--260-309

I have tested with another amplifier (an ancient Pioneer SX3800) and they work just fine with it.


1)I've tried any combo of the subwoofer outputs possible. On the other reciever both sub outputs work perfectly well.
2)The VU meters barely blip under normal circumstances. If I crank my AVR subwoofer output to +12 and set the input signal knob(s) all the way up I do get some movement and even some clipping but the output from the speakers is not very loud and extremely poor quality. I get boomy distorted midbass and barely any low base. If I swap over to my old receiver (and set the subwoofer output levels back to normal) I get the low bass I'm missing and it's punchy and undistorted (but no DSP so probably doesn't sound as good as it could).

So, in the end I'm pretty convinced it's the amp. I'm going to order a new one and test it. If it doesn't fix my issues I can return it and try a cleanbox.


Thanks again for all the info, not only is it extremely helpful to me, it seems like really good advice for anyone looking to hook these up.

Last edited by pooptoast; 09-27-2019 at 08:10 AM. Reason: formatting
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post #1593 of 2031 Old 09-27-2019, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pooptoast View Post
Thank you very much for the information. You are correct in your assumptions for the most part.


1) correct
2) I have tried using one or two interconnects. Initially I had a TS to RCA: https://www.amazon.com/TISINO-Audio-.../dp/B07HFC4NX7
Then I tried a XLR to RCA: https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-XLR.../dp/B001VLW398
3)I'd like to use the sugested BIAMP mode but in troubleshooting I've tried them all.
4&5)Yes, two separate cables. Initially 4 pole Speakeaon, I switched them for 2 pole just to ensure it wasn't a connector problem or bad wiring on my part.
6)Bare wires connected to these terminals:https://www.parts-express.com/parts-...minal--260-309

I have tested with another amplifier (an ancient Pioneer SX3800) and they work just fine with it.


1)I've tried any combo of the subwoofer outputs possible. On the other reciever both sub outputs work perfectly well.
2)The VU meters barely blip under normal circumstances. If I crank my AVR subwoofer output to +12 and set the input signal knob(s) all the way up I do get some movement and even some clipping but the output from the speakers is not very loud and extremely poor quality. I get boomy distorted midbass and barely any low base. If I swap over to my old receiver (and set the subwoofer output levels back to normal) I get the low bass I'm missing and it's punchy and undistorted (but no DSP so probably doesn't sound as good as it could).

So, in the end I'm pretty convinced it's the amp. I'm going to order a new one and test it. If it doesn't fix my issues I can return it and try a cleanbox.


Thanks again for all the info, not only is it extremely helpful to me, it seems like really good advice for anyone looking to hook these up.
The two pole SpeakONs only have +1 and -1 so that should eliminate any doubt about the speaker connections.

I'm also fairly confident it's your amp at this point. If you were getting clipping on the input meters with the LFE cranked, I'm fairly certain you're getting plenty of input gain.

Hope the new amp gets you fixed right up!

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post #1594 of 2031 Old 09-27-2019, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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With the DSP software loaded up and connected to the amp play some music or a movie and take a look at the input/output meters in the software. Is there a big difference between input and output levels?
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post #1595 of 2031 Old 09-30-2019, 12:54 PM
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Well, looks like it's indeed the amp. I just received a new NX3000D, I only had about 5 minutes to play with it but right away a night and day difference. With everything at default settings (AVR and AMP) I gave it a quick test and holy cow, there's my missing bass! I did wind up having to crank up the input signal knob on the NX3000D but when I did so it was completely clean, no more 60hz hum.


So, tonight I will be dialing in the new amp and I expect to finally be experencing these badboys in all their glory. Once again, a HUGE thanks to everyone on this board who chimed in with advice.
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post #1596 of 2031 Old 09-30-2019, 07:05 PM
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I got my hands on some 24 inch sonotube and want to build a couple custom vbss enclosures. If my math checks out correctly the sonotubes need to be 23.87 inches tall to keep the 6.25 cubic feet internal volume. I want to do 2 four inch ports and be able to plug one to get the 15hz tune. What length should I make the ports and should I flare the ends? I already have the inuke 3000 and the drivers brand new in box ready to go.

Last edited by 2000SR; 09-30-2019 at 07:27 PM.
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post #1597 of 2031 Old 10-01-2019, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pooptoast View Post
Well, looks like it's indeed the amp. I just received a new NX3000D, I only had about 5 minutes to play with it but right away a night and day difference. With everything at default settings (AVR and AMP) I gave it a quick test and holy cow, there's my missing bass! I did wind up having to crank up the input signal knob on the NX3000D but when I did so it was completely clean, no more 60hz hum.


So, tonight I will be dialing in the new amp and I expect to finally be experencing these badboys in all their glory. Once again, a HUGE thanks to everyone on this board who chimed in with advice.
Well, what's the verdict?

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post #1598 of 2031 Old 10-01-2019, 07:50 AM
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^^^Unfortunately my wife got called in last night and I was on full time daddy duty. I'm hoping to mess around tonight, or at least very soon. I'll update with my results.
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post #1599 of 2031 Old 10-01-2019, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000SR View Post
I got my hands on some 24 inch sonotube and want to build a couple custom vbss enclosures. If my math checks out correctly the sonotubes need to be 23.87 inches tall to keep the 6.25 cubic feet internal volume. I want to do 2 four inch ports and be able to plug one to get the 15hz tune. What length should I make the ports and should I flare the ends? I already have the inuke 3000 and the drivers brand new in box ready to go.
You have to subtract the volume of the driver and ports to get net volume of the enclosure. For 6.25 cu. ft. net volume, the tube needs to be around 28" tall. The flared ports need to be about 21" long, which is too long for the enclosure. Going with a smaller diameter 22" tube @ 6.3 cu. ft. will make the tube 33" tall, allowing for port clearance. You will have a tune around 21.5 Hz with two ports, and 15 Hz with one port.

EDIT:

Since you already have the 24" tube, you could increase the volume to around 7 cu. ft. This will make the tube about 31" long with ports around 19" long. This may affect port air velocity and power handling, so someone would need to model your driver in the new enclosure size.

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post #1600 of 2031 Old 10-01-2019, 11:05 AM
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Thank you ^ good thing i did not start building yet. What if I use the new correct net volume and build them 28” tall and go with the original 17” flared ports and do a 90 degree on them and get them 1.5” to 2” from the wall?

Last edited by 2000SR; 10-01-2019 at 11:45 AM. Reason: Idea
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post #1601 of 2031 Old 10-01-2019, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the volume of the port, bracing, and driver have to be subtracted in order to get the net volume for winisd.
OK coming back around to this. I had some time to play around in WINISD and came out with the following specs.

External cabinet dimensions: 21.5" tall x 28" wide x 26" deep (vertical slot port on baffle)
Internal cabinet dimensions: 20" x 26.5" x 24.5"
Speaker displacement PA460-8: 556.4 in3
Port volume (20" wide x 1.5" tall (2.25" tall with port thickness) x 20" long (20.75" long including baffle thickness)): 900 in3
Brace displacement (3 2"x4"s centered on xyz axes): 368.8125 in3
Net internal volume (gross volume - speaker - brace - port): 11159.7875 in3 (6.46 ft3)
Tuning frequency: ~22.2 Hz

Please let me know if you guys see any problems here. Thanks.

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post #1602 of 2031 Old 10-06-2019, 10:17 AM
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Talking

Little update on my amp replacement. I still haven't had the time to really dial it in but I did some quick setup and used a tone generator to see what it can do. Mother of!!... The missing bass has been found, 20hz nearly shook my house apart!


I was really dissapointed at first, thought this project was a failure since what bass I was getting wasn't very good, nor very low. I'm so glad I finally got it working, these things are nuts. I still have to work on getting the entire system optimized, find the best placement for these badboys, etc. but I'm so happy now. Thanks again everyone.
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post #1603 of 2031 Old 10-08-2019, 11:51 AM
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What do you guys set volts-/power to for four these suckers on on channel 3000dsp also for two per channel
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post #1604 of 2031 Old 10-10-2019, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
What do you guys set volts-/power to for four these suckers on on channel 3000dsp also for two per channel
I am interested to know this as well. what are the limiter values for 3000DSP and 6000DSP if you connect two VBSS per channel (parallel connection).

thanks
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post #1605 of 2031 Old 10-10-2019, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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All the settings needed are in the text document on the first post if you didn't already load the preconfigured VBSS DSP profiles from the zip folder.

They are 71.5v for 15 or 20hz and 84v for 30hz tune.

This is for 1, 2 or 4 woofers per channel on the inuke or NX3000.

For the inuke or NX 6000 you can run either one or two woofers in parallel per channel in at those same limiter settings or you can run the woofers in series pairs with the limiter settings doubled. Configured like this you can run up to four series pairs per channel for a total of 16 woofers off one amplifier.
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post #1606 of 2031 Old 10-11-2019, 03:47 AM
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Amplifiers
The VBSS was intended to be used in conjunction with the iNuke/NX 1000DSP or 3000DSP amps. A 1000 can power up to two of these in bridged mode while the 3000 can drive four per channel for a total of eight.

Can someone post a wiring diagram on how you hook up

4 vbss to nx3000d

Would the 6000d be a better idea with more power ?
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post #1607 of 2031 Old 10-11-2019, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schurter View Post
Can someone post a wiring diagram on how you hook up

4 vbss to nx3000d
2 PA460 per channel wired in parallel on a 3k would provide ~300w to each driver.

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post #1608 of 2031 Old 10-11-2019, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Schurter View Post
Amplifiers
The VBSS was intended to be used in conjunction with the iNuke/NX 1000DSP or 3000DSP amps. A 1000 can power up to two of these in bridged mode while the 3000 can drive four per channel for a total of eight.

Can someone post a wiring diagram on how you hook up

4 vbss to nx3000d

Would the 6000d be a better idea with more power ?
Run two drivers in parallel per channel. So each channel looks like this:



That will give you a little more than 400 watts per speaker. That is enough to give you plenty of boom boom.

Note: ratings say 900x2 at 4 ohms (450 per speaker), but see post above from @smcmillan2 for some real-world ratings)

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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
For the inuke or NX 6000 you can run ... a total of 16 woofers off one amplifier.

I have a 6000 and two VBSS and I love it but everytime mtg90 reminds me of this I think... I should build a lot more.
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Originally Posted by joker927 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
For the inuke or NX 6000 you can run ... a total of 16 woofers off one amplifier.

I have a 6000 and two VBSS and I love it but everytime mtg90 reminds me of this I think... I should build a lot more.
I'm running four off an inuke3000dsp and it is wonderful but I don't have space for more

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post #1611 of 2031 Old 10-11-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
2 PA460 per channel wired in parallel on a 3k would provide ~300w to each driver.

Source: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/clas...surements.html
I am building four VBSS now. I have not bought the amp yet. will be ordering NX3000DSP soon. this is how I plan to connect. (see the attached image). two VBSS per channel.
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Originally Posted by Vazhipokkan View Post
I am building four VBSS now. I have not bought the amp yet. will be ordering NX3000DSP soon. this is how I plan to connect. (see the attached image). two VBSS per channel.
That would be parallel wiring, so ~300w to each driver (assuming 2 per channel) on each channel running the nx3k in dual mono or Biamp (not bridged) mode.
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post #1613 of 2031 Old 10-11-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Vazhipokkan View Post
I am building four VBSS now. I have not bought the amp yet. will be ordering NX3000DSP soon. this is how I plan to connect. (see the attached image). two VBSS per channel.


That’s how I run mine, but on a different amp. Works good.


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I just assumed it was amped up a bit more because correct me if im wrong- With "stock" setting its putting 300 watts- which two or more woofers would share- I was under the impression you would basically double the power output to get the full 300 each if you're running two.
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post #1615 of 2031 Old 10-14-2019, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Vazhipokkan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
2 PA460 per channel wired in parallel on a 3k would provide ~300w to each driver.

Source: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/clas...surements.html
I am building four VBSS now. I have not bought the amp yet. will be ordering NX3000DSP soon. this is how I plan to connect. (see the attached image). two VBSS per channel.
Do you have a link to the 4 post in your picture.

With the 3000 you can run up to 4 wired this way.

300w to each speaker ?
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post #1616 of 2031 Old 10-14-2019, 11:50 AM
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Lots of options here: https://www.parts-express.com/cat/te...lates-cups/321

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post #1617 of 2031 Old 10-14-2019, 12:41 PM
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I downloaded NX Series Edit PC V1.0 to try and familiarize myself but when I try to load the VBSS DSP settings, it is asking for .nxp?

Is this because I don't have one hooked up?
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post #1618 of 2031 Old 10-14-2019, 12:58 PM
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I downloaded NX Series Edit PC V1.0 to try and familiarize myself but when I try to load the VBSS DSP settings, it is asking for .nxp?

Simply rename the file, using the .nxp extension.
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Speaker builds: DIYSG HTM-10 build | DIYSG Volt-6 build | DIYSG Fusion-8 builds
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post #1619 of 2031 Old 10-15-2019, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Schurter View Post
Do you have a link to the 4 post in your picture.

With the 3000 you can run up to 4 wired this way.

300w to each speaker ?
https://www.parts-express.com/parts-...-jack--260-281

Parts Express|Part # 260-281
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post #1620 of 2031 Old 10-15-2019, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schurter View Post
Do you have a link to the 4 post in your picture.

With the 3000 you can run up to 4 wired this way.

300w to each speaker ?
Matt had mentioned about this bi-amp terminal cups in an earlier post on this thread. (post # 1025). I thought that would be easier and flexible option than any other method.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post56642908
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