The V.B.S.S. DIY subwoofer design thread - Page 65 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1921 of 2571 Old 03-10-2020, 04:49 PM
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I've done that now. Thanks for the recommendation.
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post #1922 of 2571 Old 03-10-2020, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
I leave my nx front dial cranked all the way and then adjust accordingly in the avr, and I believe that's how most people set theirs up too.
Depends on which subs (I have 2 setups), but my front attenuator knobs are in the ~3/4 up position. I add gain as needed in the nu/NX software, and adjust until Audyssey puts the subs in the -9 to -5 range.

Watch for clipping on the meters in the software.
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post #1923 of 2571 Old 03-10-2020, 07:33 PM
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Hey everyone, I have trawled through the thread but I can’t seem to find what I am looking for.
I’m going to build 4 VBSS, but I am limited in depth. Ideally I’d like a slot ported box (forward firing) tuned @ 15Hz with a depth no greater than 12”. If someone has already done the work and modified the original box to something that would fit my requirements, any help would be appreciated!
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post #1924 of 2571 Old 03-11-2020, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Dbuns View Post
Hey everyone, I have trawled through the thread but I can’t seem to find what I am looking for.
I’m going to build 4 VBSS, but I am limited in depth. Ideally I’d like a slot ported box (forward firing) tuned @ 15Hz with a depth no greater than 12”. If someone has already done the work and modified the original box to something that would fit my requirements, any help would be appreciated!
This guy made one that is 12" deep (although its a weird design imo): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...e-shallow.html


I built a more traditional cab that is 17" deep for reference.
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post #1925 of 2571 Old 03-12-2020, 05:49 AM
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The potential issue with a 15 Hz tune in a 12" deep box will be the length of the port. With the "thickness" of the port, you're only 10" deep, so you'd probably need a box 2 feet wide by 4 feet tall to have a large enough port area to avoid compression

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post #1926 of 2571 Old 03-12-2020, 07:06 AM
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Now that I've got a bit better grasp over wiring up the nx3000d..
I'm currently running 1 vbss per channel.
So 1 vbss per channel means.. - 8 ohm load ~320watts per (I think is the what the nx s/w estimated.)

Wouldn't running bridged be of benefit here? I can cut/solder and heat shrink all my cables very neat and safely.. so no worries there.
So, I get a 4 conn speakon and wire up to 1+ and 2+?
That'll give my both a 4ohm load, and run amps bridged.. much more headroom.

The voltage limit.. they are parallel.. so shouldn't need to mess with that 71.5V limit(I think it was.)
Anybody wanna advise, do a quick sanity check for me?

Amp ->Channel A output using 1+ 2+ pins -> paralleled vbss (x2, so 4 ohm)

Should be good.. ya?
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post #1927 of 2571 Old 03-12-2020, 12:33 PM
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That 12” design does look a little odd. Plus the tune is far higher than I would want.
I have plenty of width and height to play with, just don’t have the depth. I have seen a few tall skinny DIY designs out there, just not for the VBSS.
I may have to learn WinISD and attempt my own design if there is nothing out there.
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post #1928 of 2571 Old 03-12-2020, 12:43 PM
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Easy. Calculate the net volume then change the depth (within reason). Now divide the original volume by the new depth and one other dimension (width?) to get the third dimension (height). Do the same with the area of the port, but keep the original port length to keep the original tune. Barring this, just learn WinISD or Boxnotes and design your own.

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post #1929 of 2571 Old 03-12-2020, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Depends on which subs (I have 2 setups), but my front attenuator knobs are in the ~3/4 up position. I add gain as needed in the nu/NX software, and adjust until Audyssey puts the subs in the -9 to -5 range.
Is this different or better than turning the knob all the way up and adding less/gain in the software?
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post #1930 of 2571 Old 03-12-2020, 04:52 PM
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Different, unless Audyssey sets trim to -12, which is its limit. -12 might need to be -13 or more, but it will only read -12. People recommend -6, so that the AVR doesn't clip (even though technically it should be good to 0).
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post #1931 of 2571 Old 03-12-2020, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bnaan View Post
Is this different or better than turning the knob all the way up and adding less/gain in the software?
Again, it depends on the setup. With an old nu1000 I had the knobs full tilt. With my current NX and nu setups (both 3k vs. 1k), I have them set to ~3/4. I adjust based on the clipping meter in the software.

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post #1932 of 2571 Old 03-12-2020, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Dowty View Post
Now that I've got a bit better grasp over wiring up the nx3000d..
I'm currently running 1 vbss per channel.
So 1 vbss per channel means.. - 8 ohm load ~320watts per (I think is the what the nx s/w estimated.)

Wouldn't running bridged be of benefit here? I can cut/solder and heat shrink all my cables very neat and safely.. so no worries there.
So, I get a 4 conn speakon and wire up to 1+ and 2+?
That'll give my both a 4ohm load, and run amps bridged.. much more headroom.

The voltage limit.. they are parallel.. so shouldn't need to mess with that 71.5V limit(I think it was.)
Anybody wanna advise, do a quick sanity check for me?

Amp ->Channel A output using 1+ 2+ pins -> paralleled vbss (x2, so 4 ohm)

Should be good.. ya?
The sub was originally designed to be powered off one channel of the NX3000. The power supplied can make use of the full excursion of the PA460 in the VBSS enclosure. More power will increase output at higher frequencies but can overdrive the woofer at lower frequencies.

Running the amp in bridged mode with the limiter set the same as stock will provide no more power to the woofers but it will cause the amplifier to work harder as each amp channel would be running at half the voltage and double the current in that configuration compared to powering a single woofer off each channel.
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post #1933 of 2571 Old 03-13-2020, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Again, it depends on the setup. With an old nu1000 I had the knobs full tilt. With my current NX and nu setups (both 3k vs. 1k), I have them set to ~3/4. I adjust based on the clipping meter in the software.
I'm asking because I have a BOSS setup on 1 channel of my NX6000 and it's clipping now and then. Right now the knob is maxed so I was wondering if it would make a difference if I dial it back to 3/4 and add gain in the miniDSP to keep the output the same or if that would just end up clipping just as much.
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post #1934 of 2571 Old 03-13-2020, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
The sub was originally designed to be powered off one channel of the NX3000. The power supplied can make use of the full excursion of the PA460 in the VBSS enclosure. More power will increase output at higher frequencies but can overdrive the woofer at lower frequencies.

Running the amp in bridged mode with the limiter set the same as stock will provide no more power to the woofers but it will cause the amplifier to work harder as each amp channel would be running at half the voltage and double the current in that configuration compared to powering a single woofer off each channel.
Ah. I will leave it as is then. 1 vbss per amp. Thanks again.

So basically.. (for the nx3000d) a simple wiring guide of..
1 vbss - hook to channel a
2 vbss - hook 1 to ea output channel
4 vbss - hook 2 to ea output channel
8 vbss - hook 4 to ea output channel
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post #1935 of 2571 Old 03-13-2020, 06:40 AM
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Hi guys,
New to VBSS thread. @mtg90 , would be great to get some advice from you.
I have built 2 Devastators using pro drivers Lavoce 21 https://www.parts-express.com/lavoce...8-ohm--293-732. They are placed in the back of room (sealed dedicated room) and are 65" away from MLP. Using them only, bass sounds very punchy and crisp and no localization issue. I also have 2 Mini Marty using UXL 18 drivers on the front of room. After spending a lot of time/effort to integrate them with DEVS using REW and time aligning and what not and what not, I get the best FR across all 3 seats but sound signature doesn't match that well. Using Devs only sounds very crisp and punchy and using both doesn't as much. I don't know if its because they are using two different drivers or its because devs are closer to MLP and using them only increases the particle velocity and TR !!!! or DEVS just has better sound because its a Horn loaded box with a BIG 21 driver ???

So my question: The obvious solution is to build two more devastators and place them on the front but due to space, I can't do that. My room is 12 feet wide and I already have 3 JBL 4722N speakers. They are very BIG speakers them selves. Having 2 Mini Marty on the front with them leaves not even 1 inch of space. Devs won't fit in there. I'll post on DEV thread to see if there can a custom version that can bit there. But my 2nd thought was that
1 - Either change the driver in Mini Marty to a Pro driver
2 - Build VBSS with pro driver that are tuned to low frequency.

What do you (or others) think?

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post #1936 of 2571 Old 03-13-2020, 07:43 AM
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Hardly ever do subs sound best where they "look" best. Move one or both of your Mini Marty subs to a different location, try reversing polarity on one or more subs, etc.

Have you tried low passing the Marty subs/high passing the Devastators around 40-60 Hz?

How do they sound playing the War of the Worlds pod emergence scene?

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post #1937 of 2571 Old 03-13-2020, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
Hardly ever do subs sound best where they "look" best. Move one or both of your Mini Marty subs to a different location, try reversing polarity on one or more subs, etc.

Have you tried low passing the Marty subs/high passing the Devastators around 40-60 Hz?

How do they sound playing the War of the Worlds pod emergence scene?
The best way to integrate subs is to see how FR looks in REW as far as I know. I have taken their individual readings and saw which one gives best response across all seats using MSO. Also, their phases are aligned properly with a little delay. Best response was achieved by adding a .38 delay to front subs.

Moving subs any other location than front is not feasible. Already have 2 subs on the back. Can't put b/w MLP and screen because they will get in the view. Front is the only location.

I haven't tried limiting front subs to 40Hz. That might do the job but then I'm not utilizing what it can provide in higher frequencies across all the seats to get more consistent response across seats

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post #1938 of 2571 Old 03-13-2020, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
The best way to integrate subs is to see how FR looks in REW as far as I know. I have taken their individual readings and saw which one gives best response across all seats using MSO. Also, their phases are aligned properly with a little delay. Best response was achieved by adding a .38 delay to front subs.

Moving subs any other location than front is not feasible. Already have 2 subs on the back. Can't put b/w MLP and screen because they will get in the view. Front is the only location.

I haven't tried limiting front subs to 40Hz. That might do the job but then I'm not utilizing what it can provide in higher frequencies across all the seats to get more consistent response across seats

I think for a start, you'll want to line up the first impulse of those two lines.

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post #1939 of 2571 Old 03-14-2020, 09:31 AM
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I think for a start, you'll want to line up the first impulse of those two lines.
Yep did that already. It improved the response a bit at MLP but not so much for 2nd and 3rd seats. Leaving delay as is was best.
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post #1940 of 2571 Old 03-14-2020, 01:17 PM
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Has anyone got some experience in the differences between the VBSS and a Full Marty um18 Ultimax? Obviously there is a big price difference in the drivers, just want opinions on if it’s worth it, or the areas you gain on?
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post #1941 of 2571 Old 03-14-2020, 03:34 PM
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Yep did that already. It improved the response a bit at MLP but not so much for 2nd and 3rd seats. Leaving delay as is was best.
You only needed a 0.38 millisecond delay? I needed over 6 milliseconds on mine. Well anyway, it sounds like you have it all figured out. Enjoy your system.

I just realized that we've been posting about Devastator and Marty subs in the V.B.S.S. thread. My apologies to everyone for that.

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post #1942 of 2571 Old 03-14-2020, 03:37 PM
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Has anyone got some experience in the differences between the VBSS and a Full Marty um18 Ultimax? Obviously there is a big price difference in the drivers, just want opinions on if it’s worth it, or the areas you gain on?
Just compare the WinISD graphs in the first post of this thread with the Marty graphs in the first post of the Marty Sub FAQ thread.

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post #1943 of 2571 Old 03-14-2020, 04:01 PM
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You only needed a 0.38 millisecond delay? I needed over 6 milliseconds on mine. Well anyway, it sounds like you have it all figured out. Enjoy your system.

I just realized that we've been posting about Devastator and Marty subs in the V.B.S.S. thread. My apologies to everyone for that.
My initial question wasn't about how to integrate them but more about having a UXL18 driver in Mini Marty VS a pro driver in Mini Marty VS pro driver in VBSS to work with Devastators. I wanted to know which option is best to go with Devastator but haven't gotten any opinion on that yet
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post #1944 of 2571 Old 03-14-2020, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
My initial question wasn't about how to integrate them but more about having a UXL18 driver in Mini Marty VS a pro driver in Mini Marty VS pro driver in VBSS to work with Devastators. I wanted to know which option is best to go with Devastator but haven't gotten any opinion on that yet
If you have devastators I wouldn't think a Marty or vbss would add much. Just build more devastators!

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post #1945 of 2571 Old 03-14-2020, 04:44 PM
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If you have devastators I wouldn't think a Marty or vbss would add much. Just build more devastators!

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Please see my initial post here https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post59365354. It explains why Devs might not be a good option due to spakce constrain. If I could fit Devs, I would have gone with it right away since I LOVEEEE my Devastator subs.
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post #1946 of 2571 Old 03-14-2020, 05:11 PM
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Please see my initial post here https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post59365354. It explains why Devs might not be a good option due to spakce constrain. If I could fit Devs, I would have gone with it right away since I LOVEEEE my Devastator subs.
Are you using a miniDSP?

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post #1947 of 2571 Old 03-14-2020, 06:14 PM
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Are you using a miniDSP?

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Yep. MiniDSP-HD to set PEQ that is created using MSO. Also using 88-a for Dirac room correction. I can set delays/polarity/PEQ all that stuff. Also, I took FR with acoustic timing reference of each sub in all three seats and fed to MSO. Its the easiest/best way to see how all subs will integrate well. You can do all sorts of things in MSO to see the results even before applying any PEQ. There, I discovered that having no delays worked best for me.
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post #1948 of 2571 Old 03-16-2020, 06:52 AM
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Has anyone got some experience in the differences between the VBSS and a Full Marty um18 Ultimax? Obviously there is a big price difference in the drivers, just want opinions on if it’s worth it, or the areas you gain on?
For 50% music, 50% movies, build with the PA460. For 20% music, 80% movies, build with the PA460. The ONLY way I would build with the UM-18 over the PA460 is if you're 95% movies.

In terms of critical listening, I'm a heavy lean towards music, and the 3 PA460's I built tuned to 17Hz are outstanding. I had a Pardigm Servo 15 prior to this build, but I'm now hearing notes I didn't know existed, all over the frequency range. The low end is perfectly adequate. I can play a 15Hz test tone in the basement (can't hear it), and literally feel the floor undulating upstairs. Obviously this isn't the strong suite of the PA460, but it still works. But the major difference is in having a very sensitive 18" driver. The detail of notes in the 60-120Hz range is so sharp and impactful. Music sounds incredible, as do movies.

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post #1949 of 2571 Old 03-16-2020, 07:09 AM
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@harrisu you should really move this to a new thread with a descriptive title. By posting this in VBSS you have limited your audience to only those that follow this thread.

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post #1950 of 2571 Old 03-16-2020, 07:20 AM
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Tried the VBSS earlier and I am thinking about selling my PB12-NSD Bass SLAM is tremendous. I thought the PB12 was loud enough for me and I even had second thoughts about building this subwoofer as the PB12 was already a very potent sub specially in the very near field position, but since I already had all the items except for the enclosure, I pushed through with the build . No regrets building this subwoofer, well worth the wait, 50 days for shipping for the driver as I live in Manila Philippines and numerous trips to hardware store to buy stuff for the enclosure, not to mention the body ache I am experiencing right now from sanding the enclosure.
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Last edited by qguy; 03-16-2020 at 07:26 AM.
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